MIG-21 "Bison" VS JF-17 "Thunder"

[PakShaheen79]

What kind of Avionics Bison has got. Any exact details?

Thanks in advance.

 

[luoshan]

What kind of Avionics Bison has got. Any exact details?

Thanks in advance.

Avionics of MiG-21 Bison consists of Super Kopyo X-band pulse Doppler radar and RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) beyond visual range missiles and PGMs., new nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers, El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant, two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays, autopilot,
radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid
air cooling system, HOTAS controls, stores management system, digital air data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified
version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

That is not all, apart from carrying the deadly AA-11 "Archer" that arms the MiG-29 and longer range AA-10 Alamo BVR AAMs, Bison pilots will have the SURA helmet mounted sight, used by Flanker pilots.

 

[deep.ocean]

http://mod.nic.in/Samachar/oct1-04/image_n\8b.gif

 

[brahmastra]

Mig-21 bison's radar-The Koyopo-M


Kopyo was the first private venture radar by Phazotron. Drawing on technology developed for the Zhuk radar, Phazotron produced Kopyo as a lighter, smaller radar suitable for equipping trainers and light attack aircraft as well as for upgrading older aircraft like the MiG-21. It uses both high PRF and medium PRF modes for optimum detection and tracking at all aspects. Kopyo weighs 120kg, occupies 250dm3, with a 500mm antenna that achieves 29dB gain. Tracking limits of the radar are ±40°. Kopyo has 2 recievers, and transmits with a peak power of 5kw, 1kw average. It uses an MPS data processor, and a TS175 digital computer. Its MTBF is 120 hours. Kopyo has an air-to-air track-while-scan ("SNP") mode, it tracks 10 targets, and engages 2 simultaneously. The simultaneous engagement capability has been demonstrated. It retains a single target track mode. Search range is 57km headon and 25 - 30 km pursuit, with a tracking range of 45km, against a 3 sq m RCS target. It has vertical scan, automatic HUD scan (+- 14&#176, optical (pilot selected target on HUD) and helmet close combat modes. Air-to-surface operating modes are comprehensive, something Phazotron only introduced in the current crop of radar designs. There are three mapping modes; low resolution (real beam); medium resolution (Doppler beam sharpening, 10:1); high resolution (synthetic aperture, 100:1). Allows detection of moving ground targets, sea surface search, map freezing and interfaces with the Kh-31A antiship missile for target handoff.

Air-to-air operating mode

1. Detection range (Ddet), km:

- against free airspace:
head-on >50
in pursuit >30
- against surface background:
head-on >50
in pursuit >25

2. Single target detection and tracking range 0.75 Ddet
3. Track-while-scan with simultaneous engagement of two targets
4. Air-to-air missile targeting and launch zone generation
5. Close air combat in the following modes of radar operation

- vertical
- collimating
- visual, with the helmet-mounted target designator used
- interfacing with the helmet-mounted target designator
- interfacing with the R-27, RVV-AE and R-73E missiles
- radar built-in test

Air-to-surface operating mode:

- mapping:
low resolution (real beam)
medium resolution (Doppler sharpening beam)
high resolution (synthetic aperture)
- interfacing with the Kh-31A antiship missile
- detection of moving ground targets

 

[brahmastra]

MiG – 21 Bison armed with the R-77 Adders and a KAB-500 TV Guided PGM
under
its Central Pylon.



Alright this is not about Indo-Pak jingoism, but this is just an aeronautical speculation. Here are the upgrade specifications of the MiG-21 Bison ready to arm the IAF :

The upgrade consists of Super Kopyo X-band pulse Doppler radar and
RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) beyond visual range missiles and PGMs., new nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic
composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS
receivers, El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's
URALs optical-mechanical plant, two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays, autopilot,
radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid
air cooling system, HOTAS controls, stores management system, digital air
data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF
radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new
electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an
indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified
version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

That is not all, apart from carrying the deadly AA-11 "Archer" that arms the MiG-29 and longer range AA-10 Alamo BVR AAMs, Bison pilots will have the SURA helmet mounted sight, used by Flanker pilots. Now with this combination, it would mean that the MiG-21, flying faster than all F-16 variants would “schlemm” an F-16 as well as the Luftwaffe MiG-29s did.

 

[ice_man]

i don't understand why my Pakistani friends are underestimating the BISON.... i mean JF-17 is any day more capable then the earlier versions of the MiG21 however, the Bison is a lethal and potent fighter....

now in terms of the advanced radar and avionics and BVRs it also has more hard points then the JF currently has!! it has a better radar currently on it while the JF is still in talks with the french and is currently equipped with the grifo-7 the radar we have on the F-7PG......

the basic JF-17 comes with SD-10 not the Archer or the AMRAAM.....and SD-10 is not as good as the Archer or AMRAAM

so yes guys currently in its present state the bison is better than the JF-17 however as the developments continue on the JF it will become the more potent fighter and not to forget the JF in the future is expected to have Air to Air refueling capabilites!!

that should make the JF have longer legs and make it a potent fighter......

 

[luoshan]

I have a few questions:
1. When did JF-17 Thunder get its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operation Clearance (FOC)?
2. What is the flight envelope achieved? ie. Maximum speed, maximum altitude, stall speeds, extreme G maneuvers (both positive and negative), operating from extreme climatic conditions etc.
3. What is the present RADAR used? Is the RADAR integrated with the weapons systems.
4. Are the weapons and payload testing over?

 

[Storm Force]

I believe the JF17 is near IOC.

The radar is chinease KLJ and weapons are chinease. SD new chinease BVR can kill at max range 70km

There is no western integration as yet.

 

[blain2]

Alo, Both the planes are designed for point defense. In order for the 2 planes to come face-to-face with each other in combat, at least one of the plane has to take up deep strike role, which is very unlikely to happen.

No! Sorry to burst your bubble, JF-17 is not a point-defence fighter any which way you look at it. This is something that Indians keep on spouting without any facts or figures to put down JF-17.

The bottom line is that avionics, armaments and aerodynamics wise, JF-17 will be a much more potent solution than the Mig-21 Bison.

Even without IFR, the range and MR capability of the JF-17 is definitely as such that it cannot be considered a point defence fighter.

 

[blain2]

Avionics of MiG-21 Bison consists of Super Kopyo X-band pulse Doppler radar and RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) beyond visual range missiles and PGMs., new nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers, El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant, two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays, autopilot,
radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid
air cooling system, HOTAS controls, stores management system, digital air data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified
version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

That is not all, apart from carrying the deadly AA-11 "Archer" that arms the MiG-29 and longer range AA-10 Alamo BVR AAMs, Bison pilots will have the SURA helmet mounted sight, used by Flanker pilots.

IRST is not deployed. Secondly, as I have mentioned, aside from the HMS and BVR, all of the other things you highlight are aides for pilot situational awareness and better ergonomics inside of the cockpit which is glassed to an extent. From an offensive standpoint, the only thing that really matters is the BVR capability, however as to how accurate and immune to ECM the BVRAAMs are has to be seen.

Its actually interesting to see these long lists being posted here and there that describe the very basics that all current aircraft have like SMS, RWR, Counter measures etc.

The RWR in use by the MKI is an Israeli derivative that the IDFAF F-16s use. Certainly nothing out of the ordinary there (albeit good for India that they can have it through indigenous production).

To be very honest, there is only so much you can get out of a 40+ design. What IAF have done with Mig-21 is not something precedence setting. The Romanian Air Force took their Mig-21s through the Lancer upgrade which gave them some of the very same capabilities.

I think the Bison would be struggling to cope with another more recent platform with similar offensive capabilities like BVR and HMS. One of the things that a USAF pilot had mentioned to me was that F-16 could run circles around the Mig-21 in close in combat and with JHMCS, it would be even easier. We know for a fact that the JF-17 is more nimble than even the F-7PGs and also has BVR capability.

 

[blain2]

i don't understand why my Pakistani friends are underestimating the BISON.... i mean JF-17 is any day more capable then the earlier versions of the MiG21 however, the Bison is a lethal and potent fighter....

The problem is that your information has gaps. Bison is a potent fighter with a very limited endurance. Secondly, if BVR is the only capability on the virtue of which it is a declared a potent platform then obviously JF-17's raison d'être is to provide PAF with first shot, standoff capability. Also the problem here is that Indian posters continue to class the JF-17 as as PDF which it is not (I suspect many do not understand what a PDF really is). PDF is not a bad thing in itself as our F-7s are also in the same league, however PAF has not invested all these years and money to come up with a PDF. What we have on hand is a true MR platform in the shape of JF-17. The roadmap is clear for all to see.

now in terms of the advanced radar and avionics and BVRs it also has more hard points then the JF currently has!! it has a better radar currently on it while the JF is still in talks with the french and is currently equipped with the grifo-7 the radar we have on the F-7PG......

Has more hardpoints? Do you think the aircraft is even capable of using all the hardpoints with the very limited fuel available to it? Any idea what it does to aircraft's maneuverability when laden? Secondly, having more hardpoints does not always translate into more of all sorts of missiles. The way the wiring is done, not all hardpoints are available for BVR or WVR AAMs. So this has to be considered.

Secondly and more importantly, JF-17 has nothing of the sorts that you mention with regards to the radar. The Grifo-7PG is only on the F-7PG. It is not on the JF-17 which has the NRIET KLJ-7 multimode radar available on it. As per PAF evaluation, this radar has beaten expectations and is better than the APG-66 on the F-16s.

the basic JF-17 comes with SD-10 not the Archer or the AMRAAM.....and SD-10 is not as good as the Archer or AMRAAM

How do you know that the Russian BVRAAM is that good? Just because Chinese are using a Russian derived seeker does not mean that the SD-10 is inferior to the Russian hardware. The fact is that neither BVRAAMs (SD-10 and AA-12) have been used in combat so to suggest that SD-10 is not as good as AA-12 or otherwise is purely hypothetical and tribal.

so yes guys currently in its present state the bison is better than the JF-17 however as the developments continue on the JF it will become the more potent fighter and not to forget the JF in the future is expected to have Air to Air refueling capabilites!!

I stand by my assertion that JF-17 in its current form is more than capable of handling the Bison threat.

that should make the JF have longer legs and make it a potent fighter......

Having longer legs does not necessarily make an aircraft potent. The JF-17 already is a pretty nice package and the great thing about it is that Indians know very little about it.