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Middleman Michel had commission pact with Dassault as well for IAF’s Mirage

@KRAIT now i am seriously tense about future of Indian security.......

Imagine, even a well literate guy like you is believing whatever the 24*7*365*Infinity Media is saying & is already making someone culprit before the first hearing of a court has even started......So what will be the assumptions made by common illiterate Indian public?? for them ACM Tyagi should be hanged without even making his point in a court........

These will have serious implications for India in future, where Media is starting to become the Investigator, Lawyer, Judge & Executioner.........

GOD BLESS INDIA!!!

These media trials have strated to get on my nerves. I don't know if there exists a thing called ethics anymore.

No buddy, AW VVIP chopper deal

I just regained my breath:)

As a taxpayer I would say screw these sons of b!tches playing around with the taxpayers money.

:tup:
You hit right on the head of nail
 
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what the f_c_ going on, my fingers crossed for Rafale.... bring the god damn bird to India....:angry:
 
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This hopefully is my last comment on the thread but let me get this straight.
Media today has become an unguided missile. On the name of crusade they have got right to criticize each and every decession. Its not just in defence, look at any industry try to purchase a land anywhere and these guys jump into creating pictures of exploitation of people. Defence deals no matter how professionally it is done, someone would comeup with some saucy news/allegations of corruption and there you have it, rising veiwer/readership.

Its indeed sad that today anybody who doesnot agree with this bafoonary of media is either seen as pro-government pro-corruption. Let us just ask ourselves, who knows more, experts who labor on getting the decession over deals are right or these arm-chair media gurus.

Tell you, in case of a war the most we would do is donate our 1/2 day salary towards defence funds and get glued to TV. The soldiers who fought in heights of Kargil (or perhaps in any futre war) without proper snowboots (as @ KRAIT mentioned) didn't bother to ask either us or media which allegation prevented them from getting the tools to fight.
 
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I am not defending Media, I am Criticizing Govt.


@arp2041 We were ruled because we didn't thought of national interest and sold our souls for Britishers and fought with each other.

Hindus were majority in but ruled by Muslims why ? Because all Hindu kingdoms didn't unite. They went to have their share of power under Muslim and British Raj.

If we have money, then only we can buy. If we didn't lose money to Swis banks but with us, we might be buying Almost double the number of Rafales. Double the number of These choppers.

If you don't have money to buy more weapons and build by own, how can you counter China.

I think you are ignoring the point of Long Term Effects.

Those who don't learn from their history, are destined to Relive it.

We didn't learn about Defense fine, but we didn't learn anything from Bofors, Chara Ghotala, etc.

Think 2 decades ahead when China will increase its power and influence with its Economy along with Military.

Our economy is our biggest asset. If we didn't gave Afghansitan $ 2 billion, we wouldn't have been there.

Problem is all people here are too much defense focused that they forget that Social and Economic stability is must for Proper Defense and Vice Versa.


VVIP can live without these helicopters and if it happens in Rafale because we didn't took care of this case, the blame will be on you and Govt. not Media.


Economy is our biggest weapon right now. Not your Sukhoi
They can be used only in war time, Economy can be used everyday.


I made my point. No Corruption in Defense Deals. Treason Case to be lodged. If govt had acted earlier we wouldn't be seeing this day
 
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If India is not capable of buying a plane right, how can we expect it to build a right. No wonder LCA is being build and tested forever.
 
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I don't think the MoD will cancel the deal- 3 helos are already in India and the IAF pilots have not stopped their training on them,9 more await delivery and India has already paid for most of the deal. There is a serious sh!t storm going on but I don't think the MoD will cancel the deal based on allegations and without proof. The MoD accepted delivery of the first 3 despite all the allegations which I was surprised about as I thought they'd let the dust settle before taking this step. So I think the MoD will carry on regardless but first let their probe come back with nothing- AGAIN.


If India cancels this deal then this is going to set a CERY dangerous precedent. Defence companies will have no confidence to bid in major deals and the winners of major deals will have no confidence it will stay that way. If the MoD cancels the deal I am telling you this will hurt the Indian military and nation HUGELY.

@Abingdonboy , local media reports that the contract includes one clause which mentions if government finds out there is bribe given to persons for the deal, they have the right to cancel the contract and the company has to pay back the amount that is already been paid and also have to pay a fine.. I am not sure how much of it is correct..
 
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I wish there was a diagree button for the person who drew the sketch.

BTW seriously is somebody paying our media (sorry for choice of words) to scuttle the Rafale deal.

maybe your guess is correct

lets wait for more news
 
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this article has some interesting points worth noting

On November 4, 1977, Prime Minister Morarji Desai was flying from Delhi to Jorhat in an Indian Air Force (IAF) Russian-built Tupolev-124 jet, when the ultimate emergency happened: an aircraft with the PM on board lost power, descending dangerously close to the ground and threatening to plough into the Brahmaputra plain.The pilot, Wing Commander Clarence D’Lima, and four other crewmembers nursed the aircraft along, struggling to keep it airborne as they lined up for the approach to Jorhat airfield. They almost made it; just short of the airfield, the aircraft hit some trees and smacked onto the ground heavily. Tragically, all five crewmembers died while making that landing but, thanks to their skill, Morarji Desai walked out of the aircraft unhurt.

That is the world of the IAF Headquarters Communication Squadron, which operates from an innocuous corner of Palam Airport in New Delhi. Formed in January 1947, the Comn Squadron, as it is referred to, has flown not just Indian prime ministers, presidents and top cabinet ministers, but also dignitaries like Nikita Kruschev, Boris Yelstin, Chou En-Lai, Nelson Mandela, Mother Teresa, Jaqueline Kennedy, the Shah of Iran, Ho Chi Minh, the Dalai Lama, Marshal Josip Tito, Kofi Annan, John Major, Princess Anne and Ranasinghe Premadasa. Starting with the venerable Dakota, the Comn Squadron --- whose Pegasus crest bears the motto “Seva aur Suraksha” --- has flown twelve different types of aircraft. After a decision in the late 1990s that the old aircraft in its fleet were unsafe, it now flies a world-class fleet that includes five Embraer-135 BJ Legacy business jets, bought for Rs 750 crore, which entered service in 2005-06 (12 passengers, 5700 kilometers range); and three Boeing Business Jets, bought for some Rs 1,000 crore, which entered service in 2008-09. These aircraft include the latest electronic protective equipment and anti-missile counter-measures, of the kind that protect the US president when he is aboard Air Force One.

While the business jet purchases gave rise to bitter complaints about “pampering VIPs”, it is the Comn Squadron’s third aircraft that has created the greatest storm --- the purchase of 12 AW-101 helicopters from Anglo-Italian company, AgustaWestland. The Euro 556 million (Rs 4,000 crore rupees at current exchange rates) contract, signed in 2010, is for eight helicopters in the VIP configuration and four “non-VIP” helicopters of the same make for carrying security personnel and equipment.

With just three of these helicopters having been delivered so far, the contract has juddered to a halt. On Tuesday, Feb 12, Italian prosecutors in Milan arrested Giuseppe Orsi, the chairman and chief executive of Finmeccanica, that country’s second-biggest corporate entity, which reported first half revenue in 2012 of Euro 8 billion, and which employs 70,000 workers worldwide. That day Italian investigators also raided the Milan offices of AgustaWestland, a subsidiary of Finmeccanica. At the heart of the investigation was the question:did senior executives violate bribery and corruption laws in pushing the sale of helicopters to India?The allegations relate to the period from 2010, when the contract was awarded --- and when Orsi was the CEO of AgustaWestland, --- until December 2012.

Why was the Italian law enforcement machinery bothered about whether bribes were paid in India, where corruption is well known to be endemic in defence deals? Former Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi, reputedly a path-breaking pioneer in the realms of political corruption and personal lasciviousness, declared: “Bribes… are not crimes. We’re talking about paying a commission to someone in that country… Why, because those are the rules in that country. The fact that there is risk of (Italian) magistrates intervening I consider to be economic suicide.”

Berlusconi’s intervention on behalf of Orsi illustrates the real nature of the ongoing Italian investigation, which is actually about politics rather than business ethics. With Italian elections due next fortnight, Berlusconi --- heading the People of Freedom (PDL) party --- hopes to become kingmaker at the head of a right-of-centre coalition. For that, he has re-established an old alliance with the right-wing party, Lega Nord (Northern League), which hates immigrants to Italy as much as it hates the country’s “corrupt and lazy south”, which supposedly feeds off the hardworking north. Giuseppe Orsi, the arrested Finmeccanica chief, is known to be close to the Northern League. For the Italian government, therefore, the central problem with the payments allegedly made to middlemen in India is not that there was bribery involved. Rather, it is the belief that Euro 10 million from the money earmarked for corrupt Indians was funneled back to the Northern League. In other words, the Italian government is incensed that Finmeccanica used some of the money (legitimately) charged off for bribing Indian officials in the AgustaWestland contract, for (illegitimately) funding a domestic political party, the Northern League.

On Tuesday, the backwash from this Italian political drama flooded Indian television screens when the news broke of Orsi’s arrest. Since last year, sporadic newspaper reports, notably in The Indian Express, have highlighted the ongoing Italian investigation, causing the defense ministry (MoD) to periodically ask the foreign ministry (MEA) and the Indian Embassy in Rome for information. But there was little real follow-up from the MEA; and the MoD itself seems to have been taken by surprise at the ferocity of the Indian media’s coverage of this apparent scandal.

Providing a focus to the media’s fury were Italian investigators’ allegations that a former IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Shashindra Pal Tyagi, had been named in the Italian investigation report as one of the alleged beneficiaries of Italian largesse. Tyagi, it was alleged, received money through three improbably named male cousins: Julie Tyagi, Docsa Tyagi and Sandeep Tyagi.

Jumping feet-first into the blame-game was the political opposition, particularly the BJP, which wasted little time in pointing to “the Italian connection”, a thinly disguised swipe at Congress President Sonia Gandhi.

It may be a leap of logic to compare Finmeccanica’s alleged payoffs to the 1980s Bofors scandal as the BJP has inevitably done, but there are similarities in how both cases draw attention to the arms dealer networks that flourish in New Delhi, in flagrant violation of the government ban on arms middlemen. In addition to long-existing networks with names like Khanna, Nanda and Choudhrie, foreign agents have flourished for decades, fatting on the capital city’s cocktail circuit in apparent disregard of visa regulations or immigration controls. If Ottavio Quattrochi attained eternal infamy during the Bofors investigations, two expatriates, Swiss-American citizen, Guido Haschke, and British citizen, Christian Michel, have been named by Italian prosecutors as key players in bribing Indian officials.

Christian Michel, who runs Panama-registered Keyser Incorporated, has never bothered to hide his profession. In 2004, he actually sued French aviation company, Dassault, for failing to pay him commission in New Delhi’s Euro 350 million purchase of ten Mirage-2000 fighters in the year 2000. The French court threw out his lawsuit, ruling that his agreement with Dassault had expired two years before the deal was concluded.

Also in the spotlight is Carlo Gerosa, an Italian who runs a company based in Tunisia. According to the Italian investigation, a sum of Euro 41 million was to be paid to these three agents, funneled in from Tunisia against Indian invoices for software services by Chandigarh-based firm, Aeromatrix. That amount was later raised by Euro 10 million, with this additional amount diverted to the Northern League in Italy.

Although these agents (and others too numerous to be named) operate quite openly in India, it could legitimately be asked why the government has never taken action against them. The answer, according to a top government official, is that “MoD officials, and even political parties, do not want to stop the flow of funds that comes from these people. This is a gravy train and the money is distributed widely… to individuals as well as to political parties across the spectrum.”

For Defence Minister AK Antony, whose political career rests on a foundation of probity, the AgustaWestland allegations are a serious challenge. On Friday the MoD issued an unprecedented 2,100-word “factsheet”, conveying the message that the key decisions that led to AgustaWestland winning the contract were taken by the NDA government in 2003, and by his predecessor as defence minister, Pranab Mukherjee, in 2004-05.

One of the key decisions that brought the AW-101 into reckoning was: lowering the requirement of operational ceiling from 6,000 metres (19,685 feet) to 4,500 metres (14,750 feet). The factsheet explains in chronological detail that the decision was taken in 2003 by the Principal Secretary to the NDA prime minister, who happened to be the all-powerful Brajesh Mishra. It was Pranab Mukherjee, who was defence minister from 2004 till October 2006, who increased the numbers from eight helicopters to twelve.

Interestingly, the MoD factsheet conveys the undisguised impression that the foreign ministry (MEA) dragged its feet in pursuing the case with the Italian authorities. In February 2012, “MoD sought a factual report in the matter from our Embassy in Rome.” It wrote again to the embassy in Rome in April 2012, following which the embassy made a formal request to the prosecutor’s office in Naples. Again in October, the MoD took up the matter with the MEA, noting in the factsheet that it was willing to take action even on the basis of press reports. However, clearly, the Italian authorities were blocking Indian requests and the MEA was unable, or unwilling, to press them harder. Following the arrest of Giuseppe Orsi on Tuesday, the MoD referred the case to the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) for action.

For now, according to the factsheet, the MoD has decided to issue a show cause notice to AgustaWestland. It has also “put on hold all further payments to AgustaWestland. Besides this, the Indian Embassy has been requested to provide the factual position and any other relevant information. The CEO of M/s AgustaWestland has also been asked to categorically state the clear position in view of the current developments indicating specifically if any financial transaction has taken place with any Indian individual/entity which would be violative of the Integrity Pact or any other terms and conditions of the contract.”

The “Integrity Pact”, which is mandated in the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) in overseas defence contracts, permits the MoD to cancel a contract, recover payment, blacklist a company and take penal action against a vendor. The MoD says, “Government is determined to take all possible legal and administrative action against the guilty parties.” For now, Finmeccanica and AgustaWestland maintain their innocence. After Orsi’s arrest on Tuesday, a statement said, “Finmeccanica confirms that the operating activities and ongoing projects of the Company will continue as usual.” But with the CBI now on the case, the company is under a dark cloud in India, as in Italy.
Broadsword: AgustaWestland AW-101: A choppy deal
@KRAIT @SpArK> Please take a look at this
 
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@arp2041

One of the key decisions that brought the AW-101 into reckoning was: lowering the requirement of operational ceiling from 6,000 metres (19,685 feet) to 4,500 metres (14,750 feet).

This is one of the aspect I was talking about. Changing the specifications to include favorable party.

Think, how many deals and requirements stated by our Armed forces may have been lowered to accommodate foreign players.

This is biggest risk to national security. If we are spending money, buy the best one with all the required capabilities, not adjusted ones to get kick back from other company who wants to pitch its product in the tender.
 
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Again Augusta Choppers in my opinion were among the very best & IAF would have been proud of there inductions, purely seeing on tech. grounds. I am sure @sancho & @Abingdonboy would agree with me on this one.


Actually I would say it was an economical reason for MoD/IAF, because with the original requirements only the Eurocopter Puma was left in the competition, while the AW 101, the S-92 as well as the Mi17 would have been rejected. That leaves MoD/IAF in a weak position to negotiate on price, or customisations with the wining manufacture, that's why the requirements were re-negotiated to get MoD/IAF in a better position again, not to benefit AW only as the current reports want to suggest.
From my point of view, I can't see any mistake from MoD or IAF at this point, but what is interesting wrt to bribery is the relation of the former air chiefs relatives with the Italian company and if the Air Chief knew about this.
If that turns out to be a real case (and we have to wait for the investigations of the Italian officials and should not speculate), this can be a reason that could effect the deal. The problem however would be mainly for IAF, since we already started inducting the first helicopters and phasing out older once. That might make a complete cancellation of the deal not possible, maybe IAF only procures some of the VIP config once (8 AFAIK) and cancells the additional 4 in transport configuration and simply stick to Mi 17s instead.

The LUH deal can't be effected at all, since the AW helicopter was not shortlisted anyway, if MoD wants to investigate, they have to do it seperately against the IA officer (if he is still in service today). My guess is, MoD only uses the current hype, to delay the decision about the winner, for whatever reasons. Without this issue, they have to take a decision until march and this might buy them more time. However, I think it's just embarrassing for our country if we continue to delay or even scrap the competition, although this is already the 2nd time we issued it. It just makes India look as an unreliable partner and confirms what westerners already think, that we are still a 3rd world country.
 
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Actually 19,685 feet was required citing that then Defence Minister George Fernadez used to visit Siachin.. Later it was lowered to 14,750 feet because MoD guys cited that no Prime Minister will fly at that height.. I think it was not a big deal..
 
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@arp2041

One of the key decisions that brought the AW-101 into reckoning was: lowering the requirement of operational ceiling from 6,000 metres (19,685 feet) to 4,500 metres (14,750 feet).

This is one of the aspect I was talking about. Changing the specifications to include favorable party.

Think, how many deals and requirements stated by our Armed forces may have been lowered to accommodate foreign players.

This is biggest risk to national security. If we are spending money, buy the best one with all the required capabilities, not adjusted ones to get kick back from other company who wants to pitch its product in the tender.

@KRAIT no offence, but when you aren't good at tech. stuffs, pls don't make ASSUMPTIONS, the requirement were changed for a genuine reason as @sancho aptly pointed in his post, if the requirements weren't lowered, it would had become a single vendor situation where there are more chances of corruption, sub-standardization, monopoly, etc. So changing requirements only worked in India's favor......

& since when changing ASRs have become a crime???

This point was raised by @Abingdonboy also, but u as always, as you are remains a HYPOKRAIT :D
 
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Actually 19,685 feet was required citing that then Defence Minister George Fernadez used to visit Siachin.. Later it was lowered to 14,750 feet because MoD guys cited that no Prime Minister will fly at that height.. I think it was not a big deal..

Why bother with the evaluation if the entire exercise is rigged to favor one of the competitors?

Bribes were allegedly paid to influence the technical selection of the helicopters. Italian police say Haschke got the IAF to modify the maximum altitude expected of the helicopters, to enable the Italian machines to take part in the tender. The operational ceiling was modified to 15,000 ft from 18,000 ft, to allow AgustaWestland to qualify for the contract. A second trial requirement was inserted-a comparative flight trial with a non-functional engine was also introduced, enabling the triple-engined AgustaWestland to knock the cheaper US-made Sikorsky twin engined helicopter, out of the contest. The US helicopter was ten per cent cheaper than the AW-101.


Read more at: It is inexplicable why India's Defence Ministry sat on the Italian chopper deal case for a year : NATION - India Today
 
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Why bother with the evaluation if the entire exercise is rigged to favor one of the competitors?

But isnt it better to have 3 engine helicopter than 2 engine one?? I mean espcially when it is carrying VVIP's.. If I am not wrong, US also selected AW chopper for the president.. Am I correct?
 
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@arp2041 None taken. At least I leared something while you saved my time. Raising idiotic questions and you correcting me is an easy way to learn. Stay Hungry, Stay foolish. :D

I read yours, sancho, abingdonboy etc comments for Indian weapons related news. :D

I am a good kid and good student. :angel:

P.S. Thoda to Haath paer maarne de mujhe. :enjoy:
 
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