Middleman Michel had commission pact with Dassault as well for IAF’s Mirage

[sancho]

Why bother with the evaluation if the entire exercise is rigged to favor one of the competitors?

Which is nonsense, because without changing the requirements the S92 and the Mi 17 would have been out as well and if the EC725 turned out to be the winner of the initial evaluation, it shows that the number of engines didn't had an influence anyway.
Besides that it is a normal safty feature (especially for VIP aircrafts) to remain airworthy, even if one of the engines fails. I would more concerned about IAF that they didn't added this requirement from the start, but I am not surprised either, since the set up of requirements for competitions seems to be one of the problems in India as well (not including lifecycle costs to the tanker deal for example).

 

[sancho]

But isnt it better to have 3 engine helicopter than 2 engine one?? I mean espcially when it is carrying VVIP's.. If I am not wrong, US also selected AW chopper for the president.. Am I correct?

Yes for both, but the US cancelled the deal because of delays, cost increases of the project and the budget problems of the US as well:

Interesting:

...There also were reports at the time that the US101 design was preferred because it had three jet engines, theoretically offering greater security than the S-92’s two...

The Saga of Marine One


So did the US designed the competition also in favour for the Italian helicopter?

 

[dbc]

So did the US designed the competition also in favour for the Italian helicopter?

Yes if the Italians bribed USMC to include an engine fail test to eliminate the competition.
If three engines were not part of the initial requirements then its unfair to add it later
especially after you have been bribed by one of the contestants to insert this requirement during the competition.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@KRAIT

Mate you need to read this before you post more HEADLINES TODAY vids:

You will now hear a lot of cacophony ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous. The fact, however, remains that Finmeccanica, a publicly-listed company, is now in the docks & there’s no way the European Union or the EU Parliament will let go of this scandal. Unlike the Bofors & HDW scandals, this time the truth will come out in the following 30 to 90 days since it not only involves the national prestige of Italy, but also of the UK. In the end, therefore, Finmeccanica will most likely have to fork out a sizeable sum of money as liquidated damages & pay back the Govt of India & it will be pressurised to do so by the Govts of both Italy & the UK. This is then likely to lead to a substantial easing of the domestic political pressure that the present-day Govt of India is now facing, & will probably lead to the remaining nine AW-101s being delivered later this year. So far, the MoD has made the right moves in terms of issuing a show-cause notice to AgustaWestland, meaning if no credible answer is forthcoming, then & only then will the contract be abrogated after the next six days, & the MoD will then be legally entitled to claim ownership of the earnest money & encash the bank guarantee that Agusta Westland was reqd to deposit with the MoD at the time of contract signature. I personally believe that the contract should not be cancelled & instead financial damages should be sought through legal means. This is exactly what Taiwan had done when a major scandal had broken out more than a decade ago regarding its acquisition of six La Fayette FFGs from DCNS & THALES. Taiwan did not cancel this contract nor did it surrender its ownership of the FFGs. Instead, it sued THALES & ultimately in a case filed with the International Court of Arbitration, Taiwan won the case & THALES had to pay back US$950 million to Taiwan as damages. Now that is what is known as a win-win solution.
The ‘desi’ mass-media is still missing the woods for the tress. While the headless chicken at TIMES NOW are trying in vain to link Abhishek Verma with the AW-2101 deal, HEADLINES TODAY has already proclaimed former CAS of IAF, ACM S P Tyagi, as guilty without any credible evidence. As the 64-page investigation documentation from Italy clearly reveals, Abhishek Verma was involved in a totally different deal involving the future sale of eight A-109Ps for the Delhi State Govt. Similarly, what is true is that some Indian State Govts (like those of Rajasthan, J & K & Andhra Pradesh) that had bought AW-139 executive transport helicopters from AgustaWestland were actually fleeced by these Switzerland-based Italian middlemen. Nor can anyone fathom exactly how & why HEADLINES TODAY is trying to link the AW-101 scandal with the upcoming firing trials in Nyoma, Ladakh, of the various contenders that are bidding for supplying VSHORADS/MANPADS for the three armed services. All in all, therefore, these ‘desi’ journalists are one helluva confused species whose arses need to be hauled to the courts & be sued for defamation.

 

[KRAIT]

@Abingdonboy Buddy where did I say that cancel the deal ? We don't have to cancel the deal. My whole point is that Govt. was told before. They didn't do anything. Now the news is in open and Italian investigation has been done.

My point is that we have to know the people who received kick backs. Its about weeding out.

I don't blame entire company or entire MoD. Do you want the corrupt people within the system to be removed ?

Again, don't cancel the deal. As far as technical requirement and capability of the helis make them best choice, we should buy all.

Investigation and acquisition can be done in parallel.

I personally think MoD is threatening for more info but just to push them and it may be just a threat and no cancellation. They are not that naive to cancel such a deal.

I think I haven't been clear about my stance. I want this case to build a strong case against Indian govt. and finding the corrupt. I think Italian court may have been asked by Italian govt. to not reveal the infor. After all these people have high connections.

I have no interest which heli is better or not. Bu all, just give me those corrupt officials.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy Buddy where did I say that cancel the deal ? We don't have to cancel the deal. My whole point is that Govt. was told before. They didn't do anything. Now the news is in open and Italian investigation has been done.

My point is that we have to know the people who received kick backs. Its about weeding out.

I don't blame entire company or entire MoD. Do you want the corrupt people within the system to be removed ?

Again, don't cancel the deal. As far as technical requirement and capability of the helis make them best choice, we should buy all.

Investigation and acquisition can be done in parallel.

I personally think MoD is threatening for more info but just to push them and it may be just a threat and no cancellation. They are not that naive to cancel such a deal.

I think I haven't been clear about my stance. I want this case to build a strong case against Indian govt. and finding the corrupt. I think Italian court may have been asked by Italian govt. to not reveal the infor. After all these people have high connections.

I have no interest which heli is better or not. Bu all, just give me those corrupt officials.

Fair enough @KRAIT. But talking of just this specific deal, if you look at my above post- it doesn't look as though anyone on the Indian side is culpable. India in this instance has been caught up in European corruption that just happened to pray upon the AW-101 deal.


Yes maybe the GoI should have acted when reports emerged last year but given the investigation is solely based on Europe, India had no jurisdiction and little options to launch its own investigation especially as it seems the Italians and British Govts have engaged in an effort to cover up their wrongdoings- they point blank refused to share any info with the ongoing investigation with India.

 

[KRAIT]

Fair enough @KRAIT. But talking of just this specific deal, if you look at my above post- it doesn't look as though anyone on the Indian side is culpable. India in this instance has been caught up in European corruption that just happened to pray upon the AW-101 deal.Yes maybe the GoI should have acted when reports emerged last year but given the investigation is solely based on Europe, India had no jurisdiction and little options to launch its own investigation especially as it seems the Italians and British Govts have engaged in an effort to cover up their wrongdoings- they point blank refused to share any info with the ongoing investigation with India.

Buddy, here comes the threat of cancellation of deal and black listing. It means billion of dollars of current and future deals which Italy can't try for. If there is no one to hide, then they would have been reveled b Italians. This brazen denial is raising more doubts.

And if they don't tell, we can take them to court and ask for penalty like Taiwan did.

Again, I hope this is a threat, nothing more. I have said in other thread that,

Sometimes the threat of an action delivers same result like the action itself.


I am not in favor of cancellation of deal,, but we need an investigation thoroughly.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Buddy, here comes the threat of cancellation of deal and black listing. It means billion of dollars of current and future deals which Italy can't try for. If there is no one to hide, then they would have been reveled b Italians. This brazen denial is raising more doubts.

And if they don't tell, we can take them to court and ask for penalty like Taiwan did.

Again, I hope this is a threat, nothing more. I have said in other thread that,

Sometimes the threat of an action delivers same result like the action itself.


I am not in favor of cancellation of deal,, but we need an investigation thoroughly.

Mate you are making out the Italians are the good guys in this case but the fact is they are the ones who have screwed India over and now they, along with the UK govt, are trying to cover up their wrongdoings. And along comes the Indian media who puts a few dots together and comes to completely absurd conclusions then start ranting and raving like idiots.


As much as it might pain you and me to admit- the GoI aren't in the wrong 100% of the time and in this one instance they are victims not perpetrators.

 

[KRAIT]

Mate you are making out the Italians are the good guys in this case but the fact is they are the ones who have screwed India over and now they, along with the UK govt, are trying to cover up their wrongdoings. And along comes the Indian media who puts a few dots together and comes to completely absurd conclusions then start ranting and raving like idiots. As much as it might pain you and me to admit- the GoI aren't in the wrong 100% of the time and in this one instance they are victims not perpetrators.

Buddy, I am saying that Italian govt. made pressure to NOT release the information. That company also don't want information to be released.

It ma be a disaster for them considering their economic conditions.

Is it that hard to see that believe Italians screwed us, and they had Indians along with them to screw us.

At one place Arp is thinking that I am putting Corruption over National Security, which I am not, and here you are thinking that I think Italians are good guys, whereas I believe otherwise.

Tell me which line gave you this impression that Italians are good guys acc. to me.

Phewwwww....I can't explain my stance again and again.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Buddy, I am saying that Italian govt. made pressure to NOT release the information. That company also don't want information to be released.

It ma be a disaster for them considering their economic conditions.

Is it that hard to see that believe Italians screwed us, and they had Indians along with them to screw us.

At one place Arp is thinking that I am putting Corruption over National Security, which I am not, and here you are thinking that I think Italians are good guys, whereas I believe otherwise.

Tell me which line gave you this impression that Italians are good guys acc. to me.

Phewwwww....I can't explain my stance again and again.

@KRAIT do you not think it is quite damning for them that they don't want to release any info to India? Maybe because they know that India will make them pay out of their ears for their wrongdoing.

And yes maybe a few Indians were involved but none of them had any connection to the govt,MoD,SPG,PMO or IAF. But like I have said the wrongdoing in question is almost solely an internal European matter with the perpetrators and wrongdoing all committed in Europe-it just so happens that it has come at the cost to India.

I'm getting pretty bored of this guys, @KRAIT @arp2041 , I think we should all just wait until conclusive proof is given and all offical probes are complete. Until then it is all just BS and speculation.

I'm outta here.

 

[KRAIT]

@KRAIT do you not think it is quite damning for them that they don't want to release any info to India? Maybe because they know that India will make them pay out of their ears for their wrongdoing.
And yes maybe a few Indians were involved but none of them had any connection to the govt,MoD,SPG,PMO or IAF. But like I have said the wrongdoing in question is almost solely an internal European matter with the perpetrators and wrongdoing all committed in Europe-it just so happens that it has come at the cost to India.
I'm getting pretty bored of this guys, @KRAIT @arp2041 , I think we should all just wait until conclusive proof is given and all offical probes are complete. Until then it is all just BS and speculation.

Yup. I just want name of Indians. Italian court which rejected our request said that they can re-look at the case and tell the names after the secrecy clause no longer apply.

So India has to wait and when this secrecy clause no longer matters when the punishment is given, we can start case against Indians.

I think there are few Indian govt. people who are also asking Italian govt. to not allow the info released.

If few Indians are caught and questioned it may reveal many more names.

All want to save their a$$. MoD people, Italian govt. and the firm so that they don't loose they support of people and valuable deals.

Me also bored. Tatazzzz.

 

[Nishan_101]

Is it possible to see that FAF and Taiwan might be selling there M-2000s to IAF and Egypt, Qatar and may be UAE will be selling their M-2000s to the Peru and Brazil

 

[errant]

Mate you are making out the Italians are the good guys in this case but the fact is they are the ones who have screwed India over and now they, along with the UK govt, are trying to cover up their wrongdoings. And along comes the Indian media who puts a few dots together and comes to completely absurd conclusions then start ranting and raving like idiots.


As much as it might pain you and me to admit- the GoI aren't in the wrong 100% of the time and in this one instance they are victims not perpetrators.

As this is a judicial matter in Italy, the Italian courts are well within their rights to deny India their request for details. India should demand the necessary info from the Italian government.

How do you come to the conclusion that the UK government is involved in a cover up?
It is more likely that the Indian authorities are engaging in subterfuge, their track record speaks volumes with regard to concealing the truth, both Congress and BJP governments.

 

[Abingdonboy]

As this is a judicial matter in Italy, the Italian courts are well within their rights to deny India their request for details. India should demand the necessary info from the Italian government.

How do you come to the conclusion that the UK government is involved in a cover up?
It is more likely that the Indian authorities are engaging in subterfuge, their track record speaks volumes with regard to concealing the truth, both Congress and BJP governments.

I said I was not going to speak on this topic anymore but since you asked me directly:


Past cases are irrelevant. Let me tell you that the defence procurement climate in India is hugely different to even 5 years ago. The rules and polices set in place because of past scandals make India one of the most scrutinised and clean defence procurement markets out there- much cleaner than the murky dealings that take place in Europe and the M.East for instance. This incident should only highlight the lengths the GoI/MoD will go to keep itself clean- the deal is on the verge of being scrapped purely because of allegations and despite any definitive evidence. Other defence deals like the 197 LUH deal have met similar fates just because the MoD wanted to make sure the deals were 100% clean.


Where does the UK come in? Well it is Augusta Westland (a UK company) who is at the forefront of the wrong-doing. It seems most of the illicit practices were done by AW on behalf of the parent company- Finmeccanica. This is a major story waiting to explode.

The fact of the matter is this is a European-centric news story that has been picked up by the Indian media and distorted into a GoI corruption scandal when it is nothing of the sort. All the money made off this deal was made IN EUROPE, the beneficiaries of all the money where EUROPEAN and all the crimes/illicit activities were committed by EUROPEANS. Where does India play a part in this other than being the party ripped-off/overcharged by AW and is now entitled to compensation?


The UKG has a history of this- remember the Saudi-EFT deal?



I've got a mate who works for a major UK-based defence firm (not AW) and he has told me, just today, that he expects the brown stuff to hit the fan over at AW VERY soon!

Believe me, the full story of what has gone on has not come out yet, there are many more shocks still to emerge in Europe.

 

[帅的一匹]

The problem is that foreign suppliers offer bribe actively or Indian officers insinuate those suppliers no kickback no deal? If media get straight down right to the button about the corruption, then any suppliers bidding Indian weapon maker will be put up on the blacklist. The best Indian officers could do is selecting he best alternative while taking kickback. I know what Krait has in his mind, but you have to compromise corruption when it comes to do called national security. If a country tolerate corruption in national security level, no hope for this country in the long term.