Medical Report of Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto

[Tiki Tam Tam]

My God... How **** must one be...? Mush is a soldier... It is a shame that moderators do not see the tone of arrogance or better said stupidity...

Again you are jumping to conclusions.

Yes, I do find it absolutely incorrect of anyone in the world to feel that Army men are stupid and do not know what to say!

Do you really think that Army men are illiterates, stupid and devoid of the faculty to think and speak and are only prone to put their foot in their mouth?

I may not be a Pakistani Army person, but having worn an Army uniform, I do find the statement “we are faujis and we are not so articulate to present our views as you journalists can.” offensive, no matter who has made the statement.

Does this person seriously believe that Army men cannot speak a paragraph of comment correctly and that the journalists are better in articulation?

You may also be of this strain of thought that the Army men are idiots, but that is not what any self respecting army man, who has sacrificed much for his country, no matter which country, will ever agree to. The disdain shown by this statement is insulting to those who defend their nation as if army men are only good as sacrificial animals!

Therefore, friend, you are chasing shadows and do not understand what I write!!

There is no arrogance involved. It is mere wonderment that people take military men to be village idiots.

Sorry, old man, we are not village idiots!

That is why my example of Musharraf!

Is he not articulate in his speech?

And who says Brig Cheema is not?

Also, since you may not be aware of how statements are given by spokesmen, you should know. The paradigm in which comments can be given are decided before the spokesman speaks, be it for any country. The rationale is simple - he is speaking for the govt and not for himself. Therefore, what he can say requires prior sanction.

Or are you of the opinion that spokesmen can say what they feel like and embarrass the govt they are speaking on behalf of?

Too be frank, one who can see logic and understands the how the cog of govt cranks it way is not stupid and so, you are wrong to state that I am stupid. In this context, you may carry out introspection to realise who is what!!

This is the third time you are 'gunning' for me.

Get it off your chest and post in relevance to the context.

 

[natalie]

pakistan is seen as a land of corrupts and liers all over the world. here is the theory why it all starts from the home.....first of all missinterpretation of religion and also bad parenting.
All the problems started from the beginning of pakistan and the bad parenting of 1970s parents when parents told their children to be inspired by corruption and money is every thing and with out any less of it you are not the same person. and people not believing in simple life and every thing had to be so bling bling. and also families played dirty politics amongst each other and child brought up in that envoirment learns nothing but how to hate and play dirty games and let each other down and then carries a same attitude through out his or her life no matter what profession he or she gets into and pollutes the whole society.
I know it is changing now and there are more educated parents and more choice marriages among people of same calibre and there are parents trying to make a change and i hope if it continues then change will be seen.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The medical report:

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/12/31/bhutto.report.pdf

 

[IceCold]

pakistan is seen as a land of corrupts and liers all over the world.

By who you i guess. Because frankly your the only person i've seen to come up with BS like this. Otherwise i never once saw it in US or canada where we were called liers and corrupts. And while every nation has problems, we are no different. But matters for us have been made worse by the west and in paticular the US who just couldnt mind its bloody damn own buisness and UK would obiviously follow in the footsteps of the bigger brother. Pathetic

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Icecold,

Every nation has problem with corruption but none of them hold the Qura'an in one hand and steal with the other as the pakistanis are known to do. So if pakistanis would stop using islam for everyone of their actions and inactions, world might start looking at them differently.

A standard answer by a pakistani to a situation is " ISLAM DOES NOT ALLOW IT " ( then who is doing it ) and the pakistani is right---islam indeed does not allow it----but the picture they the pakistanis portray of islam in their everyday life is not the picture that islam has portrayed of itself---PAKISTANIS HAVE THEIR OWN VERSION OF ISLAM____AND THAT IS NOT PROPHET MOHAMMAD"S ISLAM----.

So, when Natalie makes those comments about the pakistanis, she is not off target. Whenever a probblem occurs---pakistanis try to hide behind the facade of religion.

My problem is that none of the pakistanis are putting pakistani muslims to shame for their actions----

How many of you cry on this board about the israeli or american conspiracy against pakistanis or muslims---in urdu this is known is RANDI RONA or in english an equivalent would be crying B I T C H tears. Are you such weak suckas that you can't do anything to counter that problem---you talk about everyone interfering in the issues of pakistan and muslim countries---read your history---when muslims were in power ----those emperors interfered in the life of every other nation----.

You know---the muslim BERBERS went and attacked spain---why---because a jew count complained that the king had raped his daughter----the muslims went, dethroned the king, conquered a nation for 700 years for what---one jew girl was raped and her father had no relation to the muslims---

Hindustan----26 or 28 women are taken into custody alongwith the ship and crew at the port in sindh-----the muslims conquered sindh and then ultimately all of hindustan.

So, going back to what happened in spain----if MUKHTAR MAI complained to the world against the injustice----we should not be complaining if india or america had conquered us and enslaved us---just GOING BY THE STANDARD DOCTRINE OF THE TWO MAJOR CONQUEST BY THE MUSLIMS they should have every justification of following the guidelines of ISLAM as the muslims have laid out.

Natalie---good job girl---we pakistanis are not used to seeing ourselves in the mirror every morning---that is why we react with so much anger. Now, don't get me wrong here---I am no saint either---I have my share of issues---but then I try not to hide behind my religion.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Mastan,

Rather powerful.

There is no doubt that introspection is absent.

There is no doubt that cleansing those who claim to be Moslem and practice otherwise is what should be done, before complaining that everyone is against all.

However, practicality of the grinding routine of life may make this only an utopian exercise.

But, notwithstanding what you have stated, the concept of tit for tat by non Islamic nations, in my opinion, is not what they (non Islamic nations) should do.

 

[IceCold]

Hi Icecold,

Every nation has problem with corruption but none of them hold the Qura'an in one hand and steal with the other as the pakistanis are known to do. So if pakistanis would stop using islam for everyone of their actions and inactions, world might start looking at them differently.

A standard answer by a pakistani to a situation is " ISLAM DOES NOT ALLOW IT " ( then who is doing it ) and the pakistani is right---islam indeed does not allow it----but the picture they the pakistanis portray of islam in their everyday life is not the picture that islam has portrayed of itself---PAKISTANIS HAVE THEIR OWN VERSION OF ISLAM____AND THAT IS NOT PROPHET MOHAMMAD"S ISLAM----.

So, when Natalie makes those comments about the pakistanis, she is not off target. Whenever a probblem occurs---pakistanis try to hide behind the facade of religion.

My problem is that none of the pakistanis are putting pakistani muslims to shame for their actions----

How many of you cry on this board about the israeli or american conspiracy against pakistanis or muslims---in urdu this is known is RANDI RONA or in english an equivalent would be crying B I T C H tears. Are you such weak suckas that you can't do anything to counter that problem---you talk about everyone interfering in the issues of pakistan and muslim countries---read your history---when muslims were in power ----those emperors interfered in the life of every other nation----.

You know---the muslim BERBERS went and attacked spain---why---because a jew count complained that the king had raped his daughter----the muslims went, dethroned the king, conquered a nation for 700 years for what---one jew girl was raped and her father had no relation to the muslims---

Hindustan----26 or 28 women are taken into custody alongwith the ship and crew at the port in sindh-----the muslims conquered sindh and then ultimately all of hindustan.

So, going back to what happened in spain----if MUKHTAR MAI complained to the world against the injustice----we should not be complaining if india or america had conquered us and enslaved us---just GOING BY THE STANDARD DOCTRINE OF THE TWO MAJOR CONQUEST BY THE MUSLIMS they should have every justification of following the guidelines of ISLAM as the muslims have laid out.

No sir i disaggree with you on the whole. You see pakistanies dont hold the holy quran in one hand and steal with the other, the terrorist do so, AQ, tailban who distortle the facts to suite their agenda. How many times did you see the suecide attacks done by pakistanies themselves? Everytime its done either by an afghan, a tajik, an uzbik. So if i go according to your point it means that pakistanies are all terrorists.

If pakistanies start protaing the picture of islam in their eveyday life then they will be called fanatics and terrorists. It is however sad that we have left our hollybook that was to be followed and teaching of the prophet. Also i would ask you a question here, why does US and the west want a moderate government like PP in the government. And when it does happen how would you expect the pakistanies to have islam in their lives.

As for Natalie, you mean to say that when west protays our nuclear programe may fall into the wrong hands, this means that they are right and we are just trying to hide it. Because how could west be wrong. They were never wrong during communism, and they never will be for islam.

Indeed their is no doubt about israel and US conspiracy. I think you are forgetting something written in the holly quran that yahood-un-Nisar can never be your friends. As for doing, what do you expect, do you want to bomb the living hell out of them. You cry about pakistanies not doing anything yet you yourself didnt tell what to do?

And as for the muslims going to spain and mughals, what you fail to understand is that its all past, gone, history. We need to move forward. Back then wars were fought on battle grounds with swords, now it will be fought with nukes. So what exactly are you suggesting here??

Natalie---good job girl---we pakistanis are not used to seeing ourselves in the mirror every morning---that is why we react with so much anger. Now, don't get me wrong here---I am no saint either---I have my share of issues---but then I try not to hide behind my religion

This is pathetic on your part sir. I really didnt expected this from you. You are one of those kind that protay pakistan as a failed state and play in the hands of the west for every propaganda they come up against pakistan. And yes we have problems but no country doesnt, its just we live in an area where there is tough neighbourhood, where majority of the people are jahils, but that doesnt give the west the right to call us whatever they want. And yes if we just hold our support on this WOT, we will see what exactly the US gonna do about it? They already protay us as terrorists with pakistanies like yourself standing in the front line for their support. So even after doing so much and loosing the number of jawans more then anyother country we are called terrorists and lyers , its better we become one and show them ok we are, do it what you gotta do. The couldnt do a damn thing about iran, we are much better off.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I am not saying Mastan is right or you are wrong. It is just that your post was a very interesting one, to say the least.

So it is the Afghan, Uzbek or Tajiks who are the terrorists?

A biased and unrealistic view.

Why are you invoking Islam in a totally temporal issue i.e. Pakistan relationship with the US and Israel? This comment is more relevant since you claim that it is not invoked loosely or sentiments to that effect.

If you are really meaning what you say, then why is Pakistan having a relationship with the US and accepting aid?

Why is President Musharraf making overtures to Israel and why are people on this forum welcoming such moves?

It must be realised that one has to be also practical about issues.

How is it that what is inconvenient is brushed aside as history?

 

[IceCold]

I am not saying Mastan is right or you are wrong. It is just that your post was a very interesting one, to say the least.

So it is the Afghan, Uzbek or Tajiks who are the terrorists?

No we are. Happy

A biased and unrealistic view.

Whatever!

If you are really meaning what you say, then why is Pakistan having a relationship with the US and accepting aid?

Why is President Musharraf making overtures to Israel and why are people on this forum welcoming such moves?

I'm not the policy maker of pakistan, as for people welcoming such move on this forum, i happened to be one of them aswell.

It must be realised that one has to be also practical about issues.

What kind of practicality are you talking about? The thing that suites west is practical, other then that is all BS is that what you are stating here.

How is it that what is inconvenient is brushed aside as history.

Which histroy? Are you talking about mughals, how is that inconvenient? Infact it was the most glory days of muslims. But that is not the case now and neither is the world so simple like mustan sir indicated muslims conquering spain and all that. Its all changed, we cannot just rely on the past, we need to move forward and neither can we fight wars as they were fought in the past.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Good to find you agreeing to everything!

 

[roadrunner]

Interesting debate indeed. The image of "corrupt and liars" isn't the one I think the world has. I think it's more on the lines of radicals, suicide bombers, civil war, Al Qaeda nestling in somewhere. Corrupt perhaps, liars no. Need I quote Nixon on this (or was it Kissinger). Either way, it's a poor image, and the fundamentalists don't help this image. Pakistan could have a lot more development if it weren't for these lunatics. Why must they choose Pakistan to fester in? You have the beautiful beaches of Egypt, and Morrocco, havens of Western tourism, spending their $$ there because of the image these countries have (despite heading up Al Q and being the origins for much of the militant ideologies). Perhaps it's a development thing. When development comes, this image disappears, and then slowly tourists from all over the world trickle in. In which case, some firm action against these militants is needed sooner rather than later.

 

[Spring Onion]

If you are really meaning what you say, then why is Pakistan having a relationship with the US and accepting aid??

Because its two way traffic and beacuse US does not mean only Bush and his team.

Why is President Musharraf making overtures to Israel and why are people on this forum welcoming such moves?

Becuase Pakistan and Pakistanis do not hold anything against Israel nor we have any direct conflict with Israel

and above ALL

Pakistanis are peacful people and want to be peaceful with everyone

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Interesting debate indeed. The image of "corrupt and liars" isn't the one I think the world has. I think it's more on the lines of radicals, suicide bombers, civil war, Al Qaeda nestling in somewhere. Corrupt perhaps, liars no. Need I quote Nixon on this (or was it Kissinger). Either way, it's a poor image, and the fundamentalists don't help this image. Pakistan could have a lot more development if it weren't for these lunatics. Why must they choose Pakistan to fester in? You have the beautiful beaches of Egypt, and Morrocco, havens of Western tourism, spending their $$ there because of the image these countries have (despite heading up Al Q and being the origins for much of the militant ideologies). Perhaps it's a development thing. When development comes, this image disappears, and then slowly tourists from all over the world trickle in. In which case, some firm action against these militants is needed sooner rather than later.

and Pakistan has the beautiful Northern Areas, Swat etc!

And don't forget Muree or the quaint bazaar of the NWFP!

The beauty of Pakistan is for all to behold!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Because its two way traffic and beacuse US does not mean only Bush and his team.

Does this answer:

Indeed their is no doubt about israel and US conspiracy. I think you are forgetting something written in the holly quran that yahood-un-Nisar can never be your friends. As for doing, what do you expect, do you want to bomb the living hell out of them. You cry about pakistanies not doing anything yet you yourself didnt tell what to do?

Becuase Pakistan and Pakistanis do not hold anything against Israel nor we have any direct conflict with Israel

As above.

and above ALL

Pakistanis are peacful people and want to be peaceful with everyone

As above.

Why don't you read and then answer and not go off in your own dreamworld "non replies"?

Why can't you reply to the point being debated and instead confuse issues and lead to greater confusion and bad blood?

 

[roadrunner]

and Pakistan has the beautiful Northern Areas, Swat etc!

And don't forget Muree or the quaint bazaar of the NWFP!

The beauty of Pakistan is for all to behold!

Very true Salim. So much history and beauty exists in Pakistan. It's criminal that it's not being exploited. I'm sure if someone like Mr 10% could be convinced that there's millions if not billions to be made in such attractions, he'd start guarding and developing them himself.