Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

[Signalian]

I am not saying BMP3 is bad , I was just saying that HIT was making a 2nd viper , perhaps a new demonstrator

BMP3 over all itself is a bit outdated , but the turret is exceptionally good , A better option for PA would be similar to what the Emiratis did , placing bmp3 turret onto other better protected chassis , UAE took Rabdan 8x8 , Patria AMV , Al wahash 8x8 etc and had BMP3 turrets fitted onto them ,
The rabdan ( Emirati produced Otokar arma ) with BMP3 turret was then inducted into service

Another thing that u could have pointed out is the ATGM firing capability. It is fired through main gun which is 100 mm therefore ATGM also has to be 100 mm. TOW is 152mm, Baktar Shikan is 120 mm while konkurs is 135 mm.

So for a larger caliber or widely used ATGM in PA service, an outer port for ATGM like viper would be required. This also raises the point that 125 mm gun of PA MBTs cannot use TOW or BS to fire from main gun.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Some nice footage Of VT-4s and AZs together.

 

[farooqbhai007]

Pakistan resumes armor modernization as terror threat recedes

With India having ordered advanced T-90MS tanks, built a fleet of T-90As and upgraded most of its T-72M1 fleet, Pakistan is countering with its own acquisition and upgrade programs.

www.defensenews.com

" An industry source with knowledge of HIT’s ongoing programs told Defense News on the condition of anonymity that the Viper was undergoing pilot production "

 

[Signalian]

@PanzerKiel

If Viper IFV gets inducted, are we looking at mix M-113 and Viper MIB's or separate ?
Secondly, will section get broken down from 10 to 6 forming a squad ?

 

[iLION12345_1]

I for one hope they steer as clear of Viper as possible, apart from potentially being cheap as a local product, it’s got nothing going for it in my book. HIT totally has the capability to design an actual modern IFV that will also provide IED/Mine protection and not be that bloated (by-product of the thing being based on the M113 but with additional armor, might be what makes it very cheap in the end though). IFVs are a good idea, local or otherwise (Unfortunately Cavalier groups pitch turned out to be a failure, but the design was decent), but The Viper seems a poor take on an IFV.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I for one hope they steer as clear of Viper as possible, apart from potentially being cheap as a local product, it’s got nothing going for it in my book. HIT totally has the capability to design an actual modern IFV that will also provide IED/Mine protection and not be that bloated (by-product of the thing being based on the M113 but with additional armor, might be what makes it very cheap in the end though). IFVs are a good idea, local or otherwise (Unfortunately Cavalier groups pitch turned out to be a failure, but the design was decent), but The Viper seems a poor take on an IFV.

Absolutely. They can find ample design support from Poland, for example, for a clean-sheet IFV. The market for subsystems and inputs is pretty good as well. No reason why HIT cannot design and build a good solution using COTS.

 

[Signalian]

I for one hope they steer as clear of Viper as possible, apart from potentially being cheap as a local product, it’s got nothing going for it in my book. HIT totally has the capability to design an actual modern IFV that will also provide IED/Mine protection and not be that bloated (by-product of the thing being based on the M113 but with additional armor, might be what makes it very cheap in the end though). IFVs are a good idea, local or otherwise (Unfortunately Cavalier groups pitch turned out to be a failure, but the design was decent), but The Viper seems a poor take on an IFV.

IA has 58 x BMPs in its MIBs. These are all ATGM carriers with cannons plus they carry troops. How many IFVs and in how much duration would PA equip its MIBs with them ? If an IFV is to be inducted, there could be future upgrades which could make it IED protected, though I know the hull design plays a role and the IFV is built around it. Yet sensors, detectors and armor upgrades could prove useful. The occurrence of IEDs in conventional battlefields in deserts and plains is still unknown, whether the Indians would prefer mining their areas or IED-ing them wherever they expect an attack from PA Strike Corps. It will still be the job of Assault Engineers to clear the minefields, unless this task is allocated to MIBs armed with M-113 or an IFV. BMP is dispersed to an extent that its even serving in IA Mountain Divs e.g. 27 Mountain Div. IA Armor Div has 6 x T-90 Regts and 4 x BMP Regts. PA matches that with a HAT Regt Plus the 6 X Armd Regts and 3 x MIBs of M-113. Should things still move in PA's favor If IFV induction is delayed? Only time will tell. It will take up to 8-10 years to fully equip PA MIBs with IFVs and send M-113 on secondary roles or allocate them towards Infantry Divisions whose AOR fall in plains or deserts. I am not in favor of Viper but Im also not against it as I dont head MRVDE neither T&E.

 

[iLION12345_1]

IA has 58 x BMPs in its MIBs. These are all ATGM carriers with cannons plus they carry troops. How many IFVs and in how much duration would PA equip its MIBs with them ? If an IFV is to be inducted, there could be future upgrades which could make it IED protected, though I know the hull design plays a role and the IFV is built around it. Yet sensors, detectors and armor upgrades could prove useful. The occurrence of IEDs in conventional battlefields in deserts and plains is still unknown, whether the Indians would prefer mining their areas or IED-ing them wherever they expect an attack from PA Strike Corps. It will still be the job of Assault Engineers to clear the minefields, unless this task is allocated to MIBs armed with M-113 or an IFV. BMP is dispersed to an extent that its even serving in IA Mountain Divs e.g. 27 Mountain Div. IA Armor Div has 6 x T-90 Regts and 4 x BMP Regts. PA matches that with a HAT Regt Plus the 6 X Armd Regts and 3 x MIBs of M-113. Should things still move in PA's favor If IFV induction is delayed? Only time will tell. It will take up to 8-10 years to fully equip PA MIBs with IFVs and send M-113 on secondary roles or allocate them towards Infantry Divisions whose AOR fall in plains or deserts. I am not in favor of Viper but Im also not against it as I dont head MRVDE neither T&E.

The lack of IED protection is a minor issue in the grand scheme of issues with the Viper design.
To me the usefulness of the viper depends on just how cheap it actually is. Even if it’s half the cost of a modern-IFV (by which I mean a modern design, the sensors and weaponry on the viper prototype were already decent, but I highly doubt it has good mobility or good protection compared to modern Designs and it’s silhouette/design is already old given it’s just a larger and heavier M113) then it’s not worth purchasing given its just not future proof. How many years can it severe before PA just needs to replace it again? Is a large purchase of these vehicles cost effective? Will it become another bad project like The dragoon APC or the armed AS550 helicopters?

You understand the tactical aspect of any IFV and it’s deployment much better than I do, I only wanted point out the issues with its design.

One way I could see the viper being useful is if it’s used as a stop-gap. Purchase a smaller amount and equip the most important regiments/the regiments where a platform like it would be the most useful. Then pursue a better system and mass-introduce that into the PA over however many years it takes (that is if PA is indeed planning to introduce IFVs into its doctrine on a large scale). Otherwise it could just be procured in smaller amounts anyways to act as a force multiplier in important regions.

A viper over the M113 would be a considerable boost to the PAs capability given how basic an M113 is and how much of an upgrade the viper is over Indian BMPs, but what about when india replaces it’s BMPs with new IFVs? We’d be back to square one, that’s why I think it would be smarter to buy a proper IFV now and use it into the future instead of buying the viper now and having to replace it again with limited funds.

Edit: PA has recently shown some pretty forward thinking that has impressed me, particularly the acquisitions of the armor and the AD core. Both With good funds management and the choices of induction, they’ve managed to outpace the technology used currently and in the near future by the adversary despite having fewer options and money. I expect to see more of the same here and in other Fields too.

 

[Raja Porus]

I don't expect a long range offensive ops, so the APCs are just battle taxis to carry the troops to the frontline of defense or to follow up behind the armour and dismount during attack as shown by recent PA exercises.


I think PA is a bit too late to take the time to develop an IFV and even if it does; our production capacity will be slow that ultimately we'll have to go the Chinese route and end up with three different IFV types (M113, indigenous, Chinese) as was the case with the armd Corps. So it's better to get TOT for a Chinese ifv and simultaneously order them in a large enough number (again IF we want to replace M113s)
Another important point is the number of personal carried by an IFV as compared to M113. With M113 being able to carry almost double the number of infantrymen PA will have a hard time replacing its APCs with sufficient IFVs which can carry enough men as in case of Indo-Pak theatre a squad of 7-8 men would be ineffective and highly uneconomical.

PA matches that with a HAT Regt Plus

Isn't it Armoured recce regt?

PA matches that with a HAT Regt Plus

Isn't it Armoured recce regt?

 

[Phantom.]

Why dosent PA just Convert older Type-59 and Type-69 Hulls into IFVs with a new turret similar to the one on VN-17 IFV for stop Gap and wait for HIT to make a new Modern IFV .Similar to BMPT and Chinese conversions based on the Type 59 Hull.Algerians are doing the same with their older T-62s adding new turrets and converting them into IFVs.Ukranians have a similar vehicle Strazh based on the T-62 chasis.

 

[Tornado23]

First time I'm hearing about Wall E. Never heard of it before.

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel

If Viper IFV gets inducted, are we looking at mix M-113 and Viper MIB's or separate ?
Secondly, will section get broken down from 10 to 6 forming a squad ?

Mix is also an option, maintenance shouldnt be an issue since the base platform remains same, however additional facilities will have to be erected for the turret, its weapons and optics..which means that these IFVs will be inducted first with formation of North Pakistan, all near HIT / POF, so that initial teething problems can be rectified easily.

 

[farooqbhai007]

Mix is also an option, maintenance shouldnt be an issue since the base platform remains same, however additional facilities will have to be erected for the turret, its weapons and optics..which means that these IFVs will be inducted first with formation of North Pakistan, all near HIT / POF, so that initial teething problems can be rectified easily.

While probably not for Viper , but a certain cantt near HIT/POF was expanded recently to accommodate for new Units.

 

[Signalian]

The lack of IED protection is a minor issue in the grand scheme of issues with the Viper design.
To me the usefulness of the viper depends on just how cheap it actually is. Even if it’s half the cost of a modern-IFV (by which I mean a modern design, the sensors and weaponry on the viper prototype were already decent, but I highly doubt it has good mobility or good protection compared to modern Designs and it’s silhouette/design is already old given it’s just a larger and heavier M113) then it’s not worth purchasing given its just not future proof. How many years can it severe before PA just needs to replace it again? Is a large purchase of these vehicles cost effective? Will it become another bad project like The dragoon APC or the armed AS550 helicopters?

You understand the tactical aspect of any IFV and it’s deployment much better than I do, I only wanted point out the issues with its design.

One way I could see the viper being useful is if it’s used as a stop-gap. Purchase a smaller amount and equip the most important regiments/the regiments where a platform like it would be the most useful. Then pursue a better system and mass-introduce that into the PA over however many years it takes (that is if PA is indeed planning to introduce IFVs into its doctrine on a large scale). Otherwise it could just be procured in smaller amounts anyways to act as a force multiplier in important regions.

A viper over the M113 would be a considerable boost to the PAs capability given how basic an M113 is and how much of an upgrade the viper is over Indian BMPs, but what about when india replaces it’s BMPs with new IFVs? We’d be back to square one, that’s why I think it would be smarter to buy a proper IFV now and use it into the future instead of buying the viper now and having to replace it again with limited funds.

Edit: PA has recently shown some pretty forward thinking that has impressed me, particularly the acquisitions of the armor and the AD core. Both With good funds management and the choices of induction, they’ve managed to outpace the technology used currently and in the near future by the adversary despite having fewer options and money. I expect to see more of the same here and in other Fields too.

Have you calculated its p/w ratio in Hp/Tonne ? That should give a rough idea if its mobile enough to run with MBTs. M-2 Bradley stands at 28 Tonnes with 600 HP engine and runs around with 1500 Hp powered Abrams. Viper has 360 Hp engine and is expected to run with 1000-1200 Hp powered MBTs. and check the difference in weight when a cage armor is added.

Training an infantry soldier to operate a turret could be the first major concern. Infantry is expected to be jack of all trades. Armor boys fire a main gun, ack ack and in some cases ATGM. Infantry crew will need to fire main gun, ATGM and control ack ack. Commander will also need to give orders for mount/dismount.

As for direct contact with enemy pertaining to armor and protection concern of IFV, it will be useful to see how Bradley, warrior, Marder and Indian BMP-2 are deployed by their respective armies along with MBTs.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Have you calculated its p/w ratio in Hp/Tonne ? That should give a rough idea if its mobile enough to run with MBTs. M-2 Bradley stands at 28 Tonnes with 600 HP engine and runs around with 1500 Hp powered Abrams. Viper has 360 Hp engine and is expected to run with 1000-1200 Hp powered MBTs. and check the difference in weight when a cage armor is added.

Training an infantry soldier to operate a turret could be the first major concern. Infantry is expected to be jack of all trades. Armor boys fire a main gun, ack ack and in some cases ATGM. Infantry crew will need to fire main gun, ATGM and control ack ack. Commander will also need to give orders for mount/dismount.

As for direct contact with enemy pertaining to armor and protection concern of IFV, it will be useful to see how Bradley, warrior, Marder and Indian BMP-2 are deployed by their respective armies along with MBTs.

Viper is based on Saad APC, which is 14.5 tons with a 354 HP engine. That’s 24.4 Hp/Tonne, if viper uses the same engine, given the increased armor and the RCWS, it’s P/W is likely less than or comparable to Bradley (20-22 Hp/Tonne depending on variant) and that’s with likely significantly less protection (Viper is STANAG level IV? And Bradley is STANAG level VI) and that’s before Add-on armor increases the weight.

PAs MBTs (apart from VT-4) are generally not more mobile than an abrams, because while on paper the 1200HP of the Al-Khalid gives it great P/W, the significantly lower torque of its engine also means that it’s Mobility is not ideal compared to other modern MBTs Like the VT-4. (it’s saved by its lower weight and good transmission,it’s still more mobile than an Indian T90S, so it’s perfectly adequate for our use)
The M1A1 Abrams has a 0-32KPH time of about 7 seconds (7.2 for the M1A2, probably more for the latest SEPV3). For Al-Khalid it’s about 10 Seconds. They both have similar top speeds, though the abrams is electronically limited (around 70KPH).