MARTIAL LAW TOMMOROW!

[blain2]

The guy is reasonable and intelligent. He should just retire and spend time with his family now...I am not sure what it is that keeps him pushing and gunning for the presidency??

 

[Neo]

Sir,

I see Musharraf as an envisioned man with a mission who's trying to make up for the lost time and put Pakistan back where it should have been now. Lack of strong democratic and civil leadership is whats stopping him from giving up.

 

[bhangra12345]

Sir,

I see Musharraf as an envisioned man with a mission who's trying to make up for the lost time and put Pakistan back where it should have been now. Lack of strong democratic and civil leadership is whats stopping him from giving up.

You are in a chicken and egg situation. He wont resign because there is no strong democratic and civil leadership but the strong democratic and civil leadership will not develop until he resigns and allows them to function.

 

[Keysersoze]

You are in a chicken and egg situation. He wont resign because there is no strong democratic and civil leadership but the strong democratic and civil leadership will not develop until he resigns and allows them to function.

The problem is that the same vultures are waiting in the background. If Pak could get a fresh political setup.

I recently saw a documentary where Musharaf was interviewed where he said something that struck me as being true. He said that "the problem with Pakistan was that they were trying to put democracy on top of a feudal society. "
People don't vote with someone who is of a political philosophy. They vote for the leader of their "tribe" And the problem here is that they WILL vote one of those cretins back in again to create a big mess.

 

[bhangra12345]

When the army refuses to allow the PM(here BB) of a country access the nuclear secrets, how much confidence will the civil PM have over them? The armed forces werent under the control of the civil authorities even during the "CIVIL rule" period.

"You" wreck all the institutions of the time, demean their legitimacy, and at the end of the day, ask why such institutions are not strong?

 

[bhangra12345]

The problem is that the same vultures are waiting in the background. If Pak could get a fresh political setup.

I recently saw a documentary where Musharaf was interviewed where he said something that struck me as being true. He said that "the problem with Pakistan was that they were trying to put democracy on top of a feudal society. "
People don't vote with someone who is of a political philosophy. They vote for the leader of their "tribe" And the problem here is that they WILL vote one of those cretins back in again to create a big mess.

and what was the army doing during all these years of army rule?

In pakistan the army was in control for majority of years and for any neutral observer, it will have to carry the burden of major ills in the society. If after 30-40 years of rule, where they didnt had to look at the people's pulse, taking some strong measures is it so difficult?

It was difficult because they didnt had to look after the long term welfare of Pakistan, but only the long term welfare of their armed forces.

That the feudal system still exists in Pakistan, I blame Pakistan's armed forces for it.

Japan, India or any other nation had feudal system, but one ought break it and it requires lot of political will and care for the nation.

 

[Keysersoze]

and what was the army doing during all these years of army rule?

In pakistan the army was in control for majority of years and for any neutral observer, it will have to carry the burden of major ills in the society. If after 30-40 years of rule, where they didnt had to look at the people's pulse, taking some strong measures is it so difficult?

It was difficult because they didnt had to look after the long term welfare of Pakistan, but only the long term welfare of their armed forces.

That the feudal system still exists in Pakistan, I blame Pakistan's armed forces for it.

Japan, India or any other nation had feudal system, but one ought break it and it requires lot of political will and care for the nation.

Sorry but that is not true.......How can the army break feudal systems? In Japan it was the Emperor who broke it (And don't kind yourself that it doesn't still exist in India).

The problem comes down to the fact that the political elite are the same people who benefit from the status quo.

Oh and the armed forces have driven forward pak in many senses but they cannot restructure society. That is the job of Civilians.

 

[bhangra12345]

The problem is that the

same vultures

are waiting in the background. If Pak could get a fresh political setup.

I recently saw a documentary where Musharaf was interviewed where he said something that struck me as being true. He said that "the problem with Pakistan was that they were trying to put democracy on top of a feudal society. "
People don't vote with someone who is of a political philosophy. They vote for the leader of their "tribe" And the problem here is that they WILL vote one of those cretins back in again to create a big mess.

A completely different take on the above.

So one is happy with the "same dogs" if they are not vultures? New politicians will not come, unless there are elections every single time. The 90's were the time of bhutto and sharif, in 2000's no new "elections" were held, so new politicians also dont come.

Why are you pre-supposing people? They are the best deciders of their fate. If he decides that voting for his tribe is better, than he should. Why shouldnt he?

If one thinks that uneducated people are fools when deciding their future, than that person is the biggest fool on the earth.

 

[Neo]

He said that "the problem with Pakistan was that they were trying to put democracy on top of a feudal society. "
People don't vote with someone who is of a political philosophy. They vote for the leader of their "tribe" And the problem here is that they WILL vote one of those cretins back in again to create a big mess.

Well, he hit nail on the head! Democracy means different things for different countries, in our political culture it will be no more than a tag as the feudal lords will continue to choose for their supporters.

Again Musharraf is the man who can change that due strong political will. Any other government will have to depend on the populace to realise true value of democracy through education, a process which could take decades to evolve.

I'm with Musharraf, let him finish what he started.

 

[Neo]

Army is not to blame for the failure of political system in Pakistan, the democratic leaders are!
They started running to the army right from the beginning and expected PA to deal with each and every crisis.

Civil leadership fed the PA or militarism in Pakistan, not the other way around.

 

[bhangra12345]

Sorry but that is not true.......How can the army break feudal systems? In Japan it was the Emperor who broke it (And don't kind yourself that it doesn't still exist in India).

The extent or the hold of the feudal system has decreased. That is why you see all over India, in every state (except WB), there have been governments from two different parties in the last 10-15 years. You see, after emergency, the congress was completely swept out, but after Indira died, complete vote was for congress, which would have happened if there was a high level of feudal strangle hold.

Ofcourse it helped that congress's strength was from peasants and business class, which was against feudal lords. Unfortunately for Pakistan, ML's support was from feudal lords and so they would have had to break the feudal system, they had to break themselves.

The problem comes down to the fact that the political elite are the same people who benefit from the status quo.

That highest political elite in Pakistan is the armed forces, which has been at the helm for more than 2/3rds of Pakistan independent time.

Oh and the armed forces have driven forward pak in many senses but they cannot restructure society.

Have they questioned, why cant they?

That is the job of Civilians

If you(army) are at the helm and cant do the job, then get the f*king out of that job.
No second thoughts about that.
When the civilian administrators have no guarentee that they will last the complete term even if they have 2/3rds majority and always fear about the army's clout. Where will be the time for governance?

 

[solid snake]

I had a feeling Mushy wasn't gonna go away as easily as the newspapers and tv channels were saying. Everyone was on about how he was losing power, while I sat here thinking to myself "ooh how naive you all are"

 

[bhangra12345]

Army is not to blame for the failure of political system in Pakistan, the democratic leaders are!

Why sir? They could have said sorry, we are not into politics and would firmly stay out of it (like in 1989). They didnt in 50's, 75, and 99. When they accepted to be part of politics and are the leaders of the proponents of it, they will have to share the blame for the failure of the political system.

They started running to the army right from the beginning and expected PA to deal with each and every crisis.

When the first time, they went to army, if the army had said no, they wouldnt have come back. Remember the first time they ran to army, the political structure was weak.

Like Indian congress, Muslim league didnt had any experience of rule and were bound to make mistakes. If the army meddled in politics at this juncture, what more should you expect?

Was it Bhutto who asked himself to be hanged?

Did Benazir Bhutto ask Musharraf to overthrow Sharif? (Yes BB aplauded it, but she didnt ask him to).

Civil leadership fed the PA or militarism in Pakistan, not the other way around.

Only under dire situations did the army give up their rule, in 1971- thoroughly discredited.

1989- Zia dies.

 

[Keysersoze]

The extent or the hold of the feudal system has decreased. That is why you see all over India, in every state (except WB), there have been governments from two different parties in the last 10-15 years. You see, after emergency, the congress was completely swept out, but after Indira died, complete vote was for congress, which would have happened if there was a high level of feudal strangle hold.

Ofcourse it helped that congress's strength was from peasants and business class, which was against feudal lords. Unfortunately for Pakistan, ML's support was from feudal lords and so they would have had to break the feudal system, they had to break themselves.

That highest political elite in Pakistan is the armed forces, which has been at the helm for more than 2/3rds of Pakistan independent time.

Have they questioned, why cant they?


If you(army) are at the helm and cant do the job, then get the f*king out of that job.
No second thoughts about that.
When the civilian administrators have no guarentee that they will last the complete term even if they have 2/3rds majority and always fear about the army's clout. Where will be the time for governance?

Well simple the army is sledgehammer and social reform require subtlety.The problem is this. You can either opt for stability (army) or Chaos/corruption and instability (civilian rule)

As far as I can see, you need growth and stability in order to get more people educated. When
the people have that then they can decide. Then the army should stand aside.

I mean let me give a for instance....there is a member of this board who is a fervent PPP supporter.....now heres the intresting point....He has never been to Pakistan and has lived outside of there his whole life.
THATS the kind of mentality we have to break

 

[bhangra12345]

Again Musharraf is the man who can change that due strong political will.

As of today, I havent seen it.

let me explain. I have seen cunningness in him. The desire to do good for Pakistan seems to be only an accessory. Most of his actions are aimed for only one thing- prolonging his rule.