Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

[newindiandefence]

Sri thanx nice work ..

If we paying only one billion extra then I thing rafale is best choice..
Provide us best IRST in world
And 10+g load

 

[Sri]

Well actually its opposite. You will not see any RFI / RFP issued from our side , nor we have got any official word documented in IAF or MoD that we are looking for a new bird.
@newindiandefence
Its just them trying their luck. Which they will at last fail. I guessed them to be smart enough to stop this crap after the Rafale is inked, but...

As for LCA, the ADA/HAL and even MoD have mentioned it has 4+ generation aircraft capable of doing multiple roles in different threat environments, not 4.5.



The Swiss parliament when voting for Gripen C/D quoted each aircraft at 105 million USD fly away. And that's 4 years ago.

I put my all worth which I have on , with a support package , weapons package, training package , infrastructure package, Indian modifications , the E/F will not be more cheaper than 200 million USD per aircraft , and rolling out after 2025, they will be as useless as a crashed Mig 21 for us.

@waz @Oscar @WAJsal @Jango

Please merge this thread with the sticky thread we already have.

https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...ents-updates-f16-f18-gripen-any-other.448850/

Sri thanx nice work ..

If we paying only one billion extra then I thing rafale is best choice..
Provide us best IRST in world
And 10+g load

I tried to calculate on figures based on Google search . So there will always be lots of deviations. To me gripen looks best on paper, but as you said it's too late.
Also let me know there are any reliable numbers for these planes.

Yes at the time of procurement. But single engined fighter will always be cheaper to operate in its life time.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Well actually its opposite. You will not see any RFI / RFP issued from our side , nor we have got any official word documented in IAF or MoD that we are looking for a new bird.

The MoD specifically stated that there's a chance for another bird. Boeing/F18 is still in this. IAF Chief even said similar lines. Mentioning it's more on the lines of industrial benefits. I wouldnt brush this under the carpet just yet.

Another fighter jet

The government had already stated that another fighter aircraft would be selected under the “Make in India” initiative to be manufactured in India with extensive technology transfer.

Mr. Raha said they had received “unsolicited” offers on F-16, F-18 and Gripen aircraft. “It is on the table, nothing is decided as yet,” he said.

Detailing on the idea of having another aircraft production line in India, Mr. Raha said that “it will not be license manufacture”. “It will be proper transfer of technology so that we have good share of the technology that is utilised in this aircraft and also India will become a hub for manufacturing as well as Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul (MRO).”

The MRO, he said, should become a hub for other aircraft in the region and also service “other Air Forces which operate the aircraft.”

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...cal-strikes-says-air-chief/article9184889.ece

6:20


This is a push from the current government for the MII, then really a IAF push.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

The MoD specifically stated that there's a chance for another bird. Boeing/F18 is still in this. IAF Chief evendramd similar lines. Mentioning it's more on the lines of industrial benefits. I wouldnt brush this under the carpet just yet.

Another fighter jet

The government had already stated that another fighter aircraft would be selected under the “Make in India” initiative to be manufactured in India with extensive technology transfer.

Mr. Raha said they had received “unsolicited” offers on F-16, F-18 and Gripen aircraft. “It is on the table, nothing is decided as yet,” he said.

Detailing on the idea of having another aircraft production line in India, Mr. Raha said that “it will not be license manufacture”. “It will be proper transfer of technology so that we have good share of the technology that is utilised in this aircraft and also India will become a hub for manufacturing as well as Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul (MRO).”

The MRO, he said, should become a hub for other aircraft in the region and also service “other Air Forces which operate the aircraft.”

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...cal-strikes-says-air-chief/article9184889.ece

6:20


This is a push from the current government for the MII, then really a IAF push.

Yet there is no concrete plan laid out yet. All that is said is in terms of high number of variables , which are being twisted by the concerned to favour them.

Even if a proper briefing was given , to a representation of IAF or MoD , laying out the actual plans , I would have been convinced.

So untill a EFI or RFP is issued for the above , I don't see " Another Aircraft " coming.

It will be Dassault and a Indian consortium led by HAL manufacturing Rafales, HAL and a private firm doing LCA/Tejas and HAL/UAC doing Flankers.

Anything " Another " will only come if they can actually solve the Mig21 problem , that is replacements by 2022-23. But what these companies are stating (which as of now is much of false hood and more uncertainty than substance ) , is about Made in India fighter jets from 2025. Which defeats the so called purpose of " replacing Mig21s " itself.


Lot of drama will unfold and we are headed to a anti climax....

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Yet there is no concrete plan laid out yet. All that is said is in terms of high number of variables , which are being twisted by the concerned to favour them.

Even if a proper briefing was given , to a representation of IAF or MoD , laying out the actual plans , I would have been convinced.

So untill a EFI or RFP is issued for the above , I don't see " Another Aircraft " coming.

It will be Dassault and a Indian consortium led by HAL manufacturing Rafales, HAL and a private firm doing LCA/Tejas and HAL/UAC doing Flankers.

Anything " Another " will only come if they can actually solve the Mig21 problem , that is replacements by 2022-23. But what these companies are stating (which as of now is much of false hood and more uncertainty than substance ) , is about Made in India fighter jets from 2025. Which defeats the so called purpose of " replacing Mig21s " itself.


Lot of drama will unfold and we are headed to a anti climax....

How do you you know there isnt any concrete plan being laid right now? Boeing was briefed by the MoD himself to look at this as something completely outside MMRCA. I.E. A new opportunity.

Again, if it's drama being created, it's not being created by LM, Boeing initially, but MoD and government itself. Stop brushing this under the carpet.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

12 F16 from 2025 do not make any great news cause by then we will be having three lines of LCA (2+1) in full steam pumping out at least 40+ LCA per year

That is not what the Government / IAF is saying, according to the sticky thread.
80 Tejas Mk1A to be delivered until 2028.

It would be quite difficult to get exact figures but we can give some approx e.g.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ssible-deal-for-quotblock-61quot-f-16-395235/
UAE is paying 200 million per plane according to link and without tot or offset ( I guess),
Also taking flyaway cost of 70 million per plane in 2006 and adjusting inflation using http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=70&year1=2006&year2=2016 comes to around 84 million per plane in 2016
http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsystem/FF04 - F-16 Fighting Falcon.html
https://www.cdainstitute.ca/blog/entry/f-35-vs-super-hornet gives unit price adjusted as 155 million but if we consider below link for pricing
http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/jet-fighter-costs-a-complex-problem/ gives approx flyaway cost adjusted to be around 89 million$
If we look at Grippen price which was quoted for Sweden to be approx 70 million $, but this may not be the price which we may pay, I am keeping 80 million for calc and also 70 million
http://freerepublic.com/tag/saab/index

I am assuming india specific changes to cost the same, Infra, weapons, logistics approx

View attachment 341710
The above figures will be approx cost of 36 fighters similar to India's Rafale deal

Gripen development is sometimes already done (Meteor integration) or can be shared with
other countries.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

How do you you know there isnt any concrete plan being laid right now? Boeing was briefed by the MoD himself to look at this as something completely outside MMRCA. I.E. A new opportunity.

Again, if it's drama being created, it's not being created by LM, Boeing initially, but MoD and government itself. Stop brushing this under the carpet.

Because if there was any , we would have been atleast at a stage where the competition would have been launched.

Why the competition? Because other than the Eurofighter representation , others failed by IAF test team , and as we know with different procurement in India, untill its something like SSN , it will have to get through competitive trails and bidding.

Nothing like that till now.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Because if there was any , we would have been atleast at a stage where the competition would have been launched.

Why the competition? Because other than the Eurofighter representation , others failed by IAF test team , and as we know with different procurement in India, untill its something like SSN , it will have to get through competitive trails and bidding.

Nothing like that till now.

I dont know how this will proceed, or when. All I know is this is something the MoD and team is looking at carefully, this is just fact, you have his own words. He specifically states Boeing isnt out, specially briefed them it's outside the MMRCA. I would brush this under the carpet too, IF it was only coming from Boeing and LM, but it's not. The root of all this starts from the MoD. IAF Chief and some of the possible contenders were already briefed by the MoD. Background work, planning is probably happening as we speak, it's on time if they'll go with it.

 

[Sri]

That is not what the Government / IAF is saying, according to the sticky thread.
80 Tejas Mk1A to be delivered until 2028.



Gripen development is sometimes already done (Meteor integration) or can be shared with
other countries.

Well I understand that the development is more or less done and the first Production delivery will start in 2018/19 , but Indian context of MII its slightly late. @PARIKRAMA had earlier posted dates for possible delivery dates if selected for MII.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-05-19/saab-rolls-out-new-gripen-e-fighter

 

[Śakra]

As posted by @PARIKRAMA earlier Prasun Sen post
View attachment 341462
Frankly I do not see both 'F' fitting into IAF. I expect Grippen will be the single engine fighter that will be signed. meanwhile MK will try to milk as much as possible to see how serious is Grippen
TX

Why didn't you block out his name? Now everyone knows who he really is.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

I dont know how this will proceed, or when. All I know is this is something the MoD and team is looking at carefully, this is just fact, you have his own words. He pecifically states Boeing isnt out, specially briefed them it's outside the MMRCA. I would brush this under the carpet too, IF it was only coming from Boeing and LM, but it's not. The root of all this starts from the MoD. IAF Chief and some of the possible contenders were already briefed by the MoD. Background work, planning is probably happening as we speak, it's on time if they'll go with it.

Well let's see.

But till there is an official word , on the want of a replacement of Mig21s , from a foreign vendor , its Rafale for me. We are paying a big amount of India Specific upgrades, which only points out that a Mii is sure shot.

And according to me , if by 2022 we have a Rafale line , and Tejas coming as atleast 1.5 Squadrons a year , we won't need a third fighter which will not come before 2025-26.

And in present situation , untill we are granted a full ToT on GE414, I don't see any reason why our meager resources will be pointed towards an unnecessary investment.

 

[GURU DUTT]

That is not what the Government / IAF is saying, according to the sticky thread.
80 Tejas Mk1A to be delivered until 2028.



Gripen development is sometimes already done (Meteor integration) or can be shared with
other countries.

read it care fully im also saying the same thing but in a diffrent way what do you thing that what will HAL be doing till 2025 as LCA production has already started and will come in full steam on existing line till 2019 so what will happen from 2019-to 2025 ? and by the the second and the thrid (with colobration of a private player) will come into full rpoduction mode aswell and as per requirements at least 8 but maybe even 12-15 full squads of LCA MK1A would be built but there certainly wont be any european fighter other than rafael

 

[sudhir007]

No one is understanding this simple fact.
Too much verity of aircrafts = Too hard to maintain.

yes and later it create problem for IAF no country in the world operate that many type of fighter you need only 3 type light medium and heavy so my opinion for current scenario (LCA + Rafale + Mki) and future (LCA + AMCA + FGFA) that it.

 

[Hindustani78]

Not only F-18 but full assembly line for F-16 even in future F-35 but a big question as per Indian claims Tejas is 4.5 gen fighter why they are considering 3.5 or 4th gen jets?

Lockheed Martin apparently made the presentation to India after authorization by the US Department of Defense (DOD), but Prins pointed out that the F 35 could be sold only after clearance from the US State Department, for which bilateral negotiations between New Delhi and Washington would need to be held once India expressed interest.

yes and later it create problem for IAF no country in the world operate that many type of fighter you need only 3 type light medium and heavy so my opinion for current scenario (LCA + Rafale + Mki) and future (LCA + AMCA + FGFA) that it.

Fighter planes technology is similar in all the fighter planes except some changes .

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

yes and later it create problem for IAF no country in the world operate that many type of fighter you need only 3 type light medium and heavy so my opinion for current scenario (LCA + Rafale + Mki) and future (LCA + AMCA + FGFA) that it.

Lets see:

• A-10
• F-15
• F-16
• F/A-18
• F-22
• F-35A
• F-35C

...