Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

[Ankit Kumar 002]

The concept of pushing only Rafale and Tejas was what we all had in mind.It makes perfect sense and was rather concrete, until this government and the present MoD himself started to make noise. This is why I said not to just brush this aside, doesnt matter what you or I think, fact is their contemplating something else.

If they actually want a foreign (single engine ) fighter, do it quick and don't go for a single LCA.This is all I can say.

Because procuring a foreign fighter Jet which will only by 10-15% cheaper than Rafale while delivering less than 50% of what Rafale can, I find this absurd..... on the top of when we are paying billions for modifications for 2 squadrons of Rafale.

@PARIKRAMA
So you implying more Rafales can come ? (I read some news that No more Rafales DM said)

Don't you think Gripen E will be viable if we can squeeze all Tot of design?

If Rafale does not come in MII, still the minimum number will be 4 squadrons. This is pretty confirmed.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

If they actually want a foreign (single engine ) fighter, do it quick and don't go for a single LCA.This is all I can say.

Because procuring a foreign fighter Jet which will only by 10-15% cheaper than Rafale while delivering less than 50% of what Rafale can.

I dont like the idea either. Rafale and Tejas blocks should be the only MII program. It's excessive otherwise, but that's where it's going.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

Sometimes I feel even Rahul Gandhi and AK are less useless than HAL. Idiots , screwing our nation.

I dont like the idea either. RafalesinkTejas blocks should be the only MII program. It's excessive otherwise, but that's where it's going.

The production rate of HAL and its unwilling nature to share the production...its going to sink us.

Anyway , I hope the idiots at MoD understand we need to replace Mig21s by 2022-23, not after 2025-26.

 

[egodoc222]

I feel hal doesn't really know how to do business...!! Instead of expanding the company by outsourcing some of the production work to private indutries....this do it all mindset..is hurting India's aerospace sector!!
Some times I feel that all they want is to live off the r&d funds....!

 

[migflug]

By PKS:

The Tejas Mk.2 R & D project is very much alive & thriving & will be an excellent competitor to the Gripen NG. Next-Gen SLR for IA will be 100% indigenous. Additional Rafale orders will follow every 5 years.



I guess we can still hope for tejas mk2.
As parikrama has quoted above: tejas is a sub optimal design which need to be refined and it can only be done by tejas mk2. These ADA /HAL guys are taking us for ride with their ultra ambitious tejas mk1a programme. Earlier they boasted mk1a production to start in 2018 ,now rumors/news are that of 2021.Look at the ioc production rate , its like 1 in a 6 months.
How to believe them when they haven't delivered tejas foc till now. These guys inspire no confidence.
Not surprised we will go for another light fighter jet. My choice would be Gripen ng

 

[anant_s]

@PARIKRAMA
Sorry for the noob question, but is there really an RFI sent for single engined fighter?
even if we keep rafale out of this discussion, i'm confused about N LCA.
Any new Single engine project will effectively be end of road for LCA and surely it cannot survive only on Navy's order.
Second do you realistically see any chances for co-operation of building in india for an order quantity not more than 100-120 pieces.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA
Sorry for the noob question, but is there really an RFI sent for single engined fighter?
even if we keep rafale out of this discussion, i'm confused about N LCA.
Any new Single engine project will effectively be end of road for LCA and surely it cannot survive only on Navy's order.
Second do you realistically see any chances for co-operation of building in india for an order quantity not more than 100-120 pieces.

Its not a Noob question my good friend... Its in fact a very potent and a considerably deep introspecting question.

Consider just two single points

1. "RFI" issued to whom - US, Stockholm and Russia - Which Single Engine/reactor based fighter each countries have?
2. ACM Raha just few days back said what - Unsolicited Offers. And we have covered that to death in Rafale sticky

USA - F16 Block 70 @ $70 Mn + other package prices and F35 @ god knows what price.
Sweden - Saab Gripen - @85-100 Mn or more depending upon other additional stuff
Russia - Yak trainer?

Mr Shukla's article falls flat bcz it mentions first Russia and secondly its testing the water for a LWF plane which might eventually curtail the LCA program. Its no rocket science that LCA program progress is not as per the mandate and nor its meeting DM MP requirement. There is a deep review of LCA program soon and that will be the step post which any such big activity will be done.

The question to simply wonder and understand is

• We must have a LWF which replaces Mig 21s and augments our fleet in that role with some more additional multirole capabilities.
• Yes we need this LWF segment to be at substantial number.

Now there are 2 aspects of what people might miss out

1. India wishes to build LWF in India for sure.
2. There is a program under Rafale offset to revive Kaveri Engine and make it operational by 2021.

Now check back the news reports where LCA Mk1A stands to come out between 2021-28.

Even if you go by the thumb rule of tested engine in untested aircrafts, there is a scope that Safran Kaveri may finally power LCA program and make the LCA program successful as per the original goal of having own engine as well.

So critically if Gripen or F16 allows a similar engine from India than yes its a possibility. Again such a thing is time consuming and also the fact remains its still far away in terms of actually available for IAF. Importantly Safranised Kaveri has to be delivered as well.

For say 90 such jets to be built in MII

• for a production rate of 16 per year implies a project of 5.5years and add 2.5 years set up means 8 years+ or say 9 years
• Now in 9 years you want the whole supply chain localized and ecosystem made in India for producing this bird...
• So what after9 years.
• What about the investments done by SME and MSME folks?
• Will these jets have cushion pricing to accommodate such end of product production in India?
• What about the credible technology which is being shared for the local MIC?
• Where will they use this technology and the skills acquired by participating in this program?
• What about the critical things like the engines?

If you seek out the answers, one simple thing that will be there is for MIC's interest as well as giving them a proper return you will like to promise the ecosystem a run of 15 years and say 10 years of tax holidays to facilitate them for taking up this challenge of investment, time and acquiring skills. So again simply a 12.5 year production schedule gives you how many numbers? 12.5*16 = 200 Jets +/- 10 jets

Thats the kind of number where we can do a proper MKI like deal and better it to bring the conditionalities like say Rafale offset incorporated into it and get the MIC up and running. If we chose any LWF yes we will end up marginalizing the Tejas program for sure.

I have a firm faith whichever bird waits for 2021-22 kind of timeline and uses the Safranised Kaveri Engine in its program will get the first priority. I dont think we are bothered about only LWF rather we are looking at much more beyond just numbers.

Wait for Indo Russian summit, we might see the chance of some more buys off the shelf route .. That might give us the space till 2023 timeline. Of course it wont be a LWF.. Lets wait and see if it goes through or is discussed in what terms of references.

 

[anant_s]

• So what after9 years.

• What about the investments done by SME and MSME folks?

• Will these jets have cushion pricing to accommodate such end of product production in India?

• What about the credible technology which is being shared for the local MIC?

• Where will they use this technology and the skills acquired by participating in this program?

• What about the critical things like the engines?

I think that is where roadmap to future lies.
India is not just looking to manufacture some X number of jets based on an imported assembly line, it is trying to create an ecosystem for its future production regime.
You know some years ago, when there were talks of FGFA, AMCA, MRCA, Point Defence LWF being projected in concurrent time scale 2015-2030, it all looked good on paper, but a question begged, How will all that be done with just HAL assembly lines?
This government at least has initiated some steps in finding those answers and while we still have to wait and see, with private partnership and investment, it is impossible to even think of induction program succeeding.
Now when we talk of private investment, we are looking at a timescale of atleast 30-40 years for the business to become viable and country to reap benefits.
we have discussed this in past, but HAL will be hard pressed to manufacture LCA variants and FGFA simultaneously in numbers and to this if we add AMCA as well, it would require massive capacity creation.
Now here with Rafale and second LWF (if it is true), would need to go to private party(s) for parallel induction.
In this context the thought (which some of us endorse), that rafale, in large numbers is the only logical solution, looks more and more logical.
+++
by the way, i wold love to read and learn a bit more on Safran's collaboration on GTRE Kaveri

 

[Taygibay]

Some times I feel that all they want is to live off the r&d funds....!

So many governmental structures all over the world end up like that, mainly
because workers especially if post mobility and or career advancement are
low come to consider their first job to be maintaining the existence of it over
actually producing anything.

But that's all the more reason to point out that

"RFI" issued to whom - US, Stockholm and Russia - Which Single Engine/reactor based fighter each countries have?

if I was an Indian taxpayer, I'd demand to know if a similar letter was sent to
all private Indian companies allowing them to submit offers based on LCA Mk2
and why the heck not if the answer is negative!

Give HAL their cut as royalties for IP and let them live off that too and grow fatter.

Tsssk, Tay.

 

[Aero]

@Joe Shearer

The Russians didn't give the IAF any English versions of the critical manuals. They had to be translated from the Russian, validated by test pilots familiar with the plane, and only THEN translated.

Some counties tend to prefer their own language instead of english (unlike ours). Even in bilateral exercises many time Russian officers use interpreter whether ours one speak english themselves.
Now, For the manuals they may not be available in english as SU didn't use that language as their primary or it may be case of ignorance. i am unable to comment because i don't have any data with me for this information.

Imagine a TOT scenario (the obvious real life examples can't be cited, so this one above was just a sampler); how do you know what you have been given until you start production? And what do you do if it turns out that you can't do the full production job, because of some seemingly minor factor? By withholding money until the first successful run?

That's why we keep Guarantee Money with parties involved in deal.( Leave Sukhoi out of it as it was foolish not to do so)

You've just seen what happened with the Rafale, and the deals earlier were all deals where the western powers were backing the Pakistanis to the hilt - the Sabre, the Starfighter, for starters - and were starving us of even the basic technology? Do you know that according to the Dept. of Commerce restrictions, we couldn't even import a Mac server without a special clearance? When we were struggling with one (or was it two) specialist design and drawing machines, the Singaporean equivalent had wall-to-wall O2s?

Because they were able to utilize Pakistan against USSR and it was in their interest to keep pakistan. Now after dissolution of SU you can see how much they back pakistan.
India was considered pro-SU country (even after being neutral) that is why restrictions were there.
Now see change in their stance toward India we can get many waivers that other countries can't.

You think they'll really level with us? The amount of technology involved is vast. Unless the vendor wants to, there is no way that the purchaser can be sure that he has got everything he paid for.

But it is upto buyer to select vendor that can offer the most they want.

Get real, mister.

I think i am.
We don't know each other but you are still formulating opinion about me thinking not in real conditions .

It's worse than that. There are some parts and composite panels on the existing pre-production models where the dimensions differ from one model to the next; there are, in short, unique dimensions for each existing aircraft.

Because these are pre-production aircrafts sometimes changes are done to remove any deficiency . Production models will not have same problem (in their batches, we can't expect 1st and last aircraft to be same for entire production run, there will be improvements) (In case if i didn't got your point Name some parts that will be different for every aircraft of same model and purpose)

You are running the support team for a squadron of 18 aircraft in a remote location. Which dimensions of parts will you use, considering that there might be one set of dimensions for each aircraft produced? Which 18 will you ask for, to keep in stock? I'm sorry, but clearly I am not getting through.

i think you will keep the parts that wears of regularly from all the aircrafts not the special problem ones.
Sorry, i either i didn't get it or you made it look like i have squadron contain 1 F22,1 F-35,1 F-16,1 F18,1 Rafale, 1 Typhoon like configuration.

Serious Note> Let's say i have squadron of Rafale after pre-production run i will be aware what parts of aircraft generally wear out faster, i will keep them & it will be same for all 18. For special problem you can't be sure you will have spare even in inventory as Air Bases like in case of explosion onboard many components may get damaged you can't keep everything close by..

First, you are right, we need a Model T. It was the MiG 21, and we need replacements. So now we've agreed on everything that we can agree on.

Second, after McDonnell Douglas threw out our people from their design centres, without their own notes, which were withheld, the entire flight control system was re-developed. It is one of the finest going today; a particular general-officer level person thought, after flying the Tejas, that the FCS might even have improved the functioning of his own favourite aircraft, the F 16. You can't do that with a design generated abroad. You can't do any foreign republication of the things that the LCA project generated.

Well but it took its time, if we want an aircraft in speedy manner to fill up our numbers , some compromise will be there.
You took my answer other way around i was talking about taking other company design teams to help us to speed up development in return they get cash (I know not going to work for everything).
We were talking about something like JFT to fill our numbers but now you say they will not give us much, we need to be clear what we actually want. In South Korea, T-50is designed by almost Lockheed martin but now RKAF can fill in numbers and local design can continue.

Thanks for your time, Good day

 

[Aero]

If Rafale does not come in MII, still the minimum number will be 4 squadrons. This is pretty confirmed.

Actually many are speculating for 36+18 option of rafales and then more purchase for 100+ jets that's why i asked @PARIKRAMA about it but he seems to be very busy at the moment.

Anyway i think in coming months a lot of things will get clear about what is coming or what is not.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Aero
It's a correct assessment to wait for some more time to see the clear picture.

In general Indian Pvt sector don't invest if they don't have a clarity on paper as well as clear picture of assured biz for good amount of years.

If it's NO MII then Rafale will reach 5 squadrons or 80 jets in 36+18+36 only for IAF.

And then its over.

As of now ground work and what the progress is being seen is a Rafale MII only scenario.

So yes much more will be revealed in coming months.

A small hint in numbers will come up when you get the formal news out that only 63-65 jags are available for Darin 3 upgrade implying another 60 odd jets are required for DPSA roles that too in a very short span of time.

All such things will be revealed in public domain in coming time.

 

[Hellfire]

How can you say that? (Elaborate a bit please)
.

HAL Dhruv Mk 1 to 4 ... a real pain in arse

 

[Aero]

HAL Dhruv Mk 1 to 4 ... a real pain in arse

Bro in pre-production run this will happen but once we start to produce like FOC/in-service configuration aircraft/heli/whatever how will you apply individuality. (provided Aircraft are for same roles and configuration)

Not applicable if you build one for Air-Superiority and another for Ground attack.

 

[Hellfire]

Bro in pre-production run this will happen but once we start to produce like FOC configuration aircraft/heli/whatever hoy will you apply individuality.(provided Aircraft are for same roles and configuration)

When you are the user in high altitude, such a line does not hold. The issue comes in spares supply.