Mahatma Gandhi vs Quaid-e-Azam, MA Jinnah

[wtf]

Jinnah did not leave any more a fractured Pakistan than did Gandhi a fractured India - the subsequent problems in both countries were a result of the leadership that came about later, or in India's case, immediately after independence with the perfidious Nehru.

Perfidious? Will you stop name-calling please?
(Criticize actions, not people. Otherwise there is not much to discuss)

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, he fought for the freedom of (what is today) about 130 Million people. Except for 30 million who split on the basis of religion, the remaining 100 million live in unity in spite of linguistic, cultural and religious differences -- and most importantly with democracy and freedom. Wouldn't call that Myopic.

Who is 'he', because the above post applies just as well to either India or Pakistan, with 'he' being Gandhi or Jinnah.

Your post almost makes it sound like Pakistan gained independence from India, not Britain.

Why?

There were two simultaneous struggles for Jinnah - One was Independence from Britain, but there was also a struggle against the Congress's view of what that 'independence' should look like, and therefore the struggle for the people of what is today Pakistan.

 

[wtf]

Who is 'he', because the above post applies just as well to either India or Pakistan, with 'he' being Gandhi or Jinnah.

Why?

There were two simultaneous struggles for Jinnah - One was Independence from Britain, but there was also a struggle against the Congress's view of what that 'independence' should look like, and therefore the struggle for the people of what is today Pakistan.

Did Jinnah fight in the freedom struggle? And by that I mean a struggle for full freedom. He seemed to have been for home-rule just like Congress was. But when Congress moved to a full-independence movement, Jinnah did not participate in any of those actions. He seemed to have been a very good pro-India lawyer though.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Perfidious? Will you stop name-calling please?
(Criticize actions, not people. Otherwise there is not much to discuss)

Nehru was nothing but a politician, not a leader of the stature of Gandhi or Jinnah - and if you read Nehru's quotes on Kashmir in the UNSC resolutions sticky, where he calls on his leaders to pay lip service to the UNSC resolutions for the sake of international opinion, while indicating that India would not do anything beyond the status quo, 'perfidious' is completely apt a description.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Did Jinnah fight in the freedom struggle?

How did Pakistan come into being?

 

[Peshwa]

I'd say it was Gandhi and his fantasy of keeping the subcontinent united that was 'myopic' - Jinnah's call was pragmatic and correct, and his position on creating Pakistan one that he arrived at after spending considerable time and energy in the 'creating a united India' camp.

Jinnah understood the people of the subcontinent and the cultural and religious schisms, and adjusted accordingly, perhaps saving far greater bloodshed and chaos later on - Gandhi continued chasing 'pies in the sky'.

Hi AM,

I feel like united India should have been given a chance.....I feel that the "power craze" both Nehru and Jinnah had, left the country broken up...

Why is the concept of a United India so bad.....I mean even before the country gained independence, how could one man or a bunch of people know that it wouldn't work?? I mean this stinks of a sense of insecurity and a lust for power....

Let me ask you this......from the current scenario, India where a lot of people claim was unsuitable for Muslims, has an equal or larger population of Muslims than current Pakistan.....and we have a bigger better economy, developing at a steady pace, and relative peace/harmony internally.....

Compare this to Pakistan....where there is a Muslim majority, who should in theory live in peace since this is what they aspired for, are far behind India, and are killing each other through Sectarian violence, Talibanism (Dunno if thats the right word) etc.....So how is this better than a United India situation??

Now doesnt this sound like a failed vision?

I believe in Hindu Muslim unity....and in the backdrop of the current scenario, I would think what happened was for the best....this is my selfish opinion since I dont think any country should face what Pakistan is going through....
but I wouldnt go as far as calling Gandhi's vision for a united India as "Myopic"

Only two countries in this world are called unnatural states, since the're created on religion....Israel and Pakistan....And both have faced a life long battle for survival....Now dont you think there is a reason why this is so?? Religion and state are not to be mixed....This is something I strongly believe in!

I look forward to your response!

 

[Always Neutral]

You are talking about a popularity contest - I bet millions more can sing Jacko's songs than quote Gandhi.


QUOTE]

Then more quote Gandhi than Jinnah. I know for a Pakistani its hard to accept that Gandhi was on a higher pedestal globally than Jinnah and Nehru can ever dream of but the world agrees with me not with you. Its better to compare Nehru and Jinnah men of equal stature if you wish. Gandhi is in a class apart and he learnt may things in South Africa too where he is icon. From today Gandhi quotes will be there in all London underground trains !

When have u last heard some one in the global league of Obama or Mandela quote Jinnah or MJ in their speech to the global audience ?

I am sure u will avoid answering that question.

Regards

 

[wtf]

How did Pakistan come into being?

Because Congress & Muslim League fought the British. Some in Muslim League, including Jinnah asked for Pakistan as a separate country at that point.

Jinnah was never in any of the street-agitations, never went to jail, was not arrested etc. was he?

 

[Jako]

I feel Netaji SC Bose was a much better leader than gandhi or nehru........'selfish' gandhiji forced him to resign as the president of congress,even though he was the elected president.........nehru's idiotic moves to surpress netaji is also well known........i dont want to foul mouth those two nor do i have any respect for the two

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Then more quote Gandhi than Jinnah.

Please keep quoting Gandhi, and let me knwo when you are done with a popularity contest determining greatness.

I know for a Pakistani its hard for finding out that Gandhi was on a higher pedestal globally than Jinnah and Nehru but the world agrees with me not with you. Its better to compare Nehru and Jinnah men of equal stature if you wish. Gandhi is in a class apart and he learnt may things in South Africa too where he is icon. Today Gandhi quotes will be there in all London underground trains !

Again, you want to determine greatness based on a popularity contest, not deeds.

Your whole premise here is absurd. I think what is hard is for people with an inherent anti-Pakistan bias to accept that in terms of achievements and deeds, Jinnah was the equal, if not greater, to Gandhi.

I think that is what really gets the goat of people like you, who really don't think the creation of Pakistan was a good idea, and therefore for whom accepting Jinnah's achievements as equal to Gandhi is antithetical to that core belief.

I am sure u will avoid answering that question.

Of course - I have no time for silly popularity contests.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Jinnah was never in any of the street-agitations, never went to jail, was not arrested etc. was he?

And what does that have to do with anything?

To me that suggests that when it came to a 'struggle for a homeland for the people of Pakistan, Jinnah was the true model of a 'peaceful struggle' and of the victory of 'non-violence' and 'intellect' as tools to achieve an objective.

 

[glomex]

And what does that have to do with anything?

To me that suggests that when it came to a 'struggle for a homeland for the people of Pakistan, Jinnah was the true model of a 'peaceful struggle' and of the victory of 'non-violence' and 'intellect' as tools to achieve an objective.

Peacefull .......

Direct Action Day, also known as the Great Calcutta Riot,on 16 August 1946 was Jinnah's Brain Child.....

Direct Action - TIME

Direct Action Day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Always Neutral]

Please keep quoting Gandhi, and let me knwo when you are done with a popularity contest determining greatness.

Again, you want to determine greatness based on a popularity contest, not deeds.

Your whole premise here is absurd. I think what is hard is for people with an inherent anti-Pakistan bias to accept that in terms of achievements and deeds, Jinnah was the equal, if not greater, to Gandhi.

I think that is what really gets the goat of people like you, who really don't think the creation of Pakistan was a good idea, and therefore for whom accepting Jinnah's achievements as equal to Gandhi is antithetical to that core belief.

Of course - I have no time for silly popularity contests.

Jinnah was great for Pakistan and Nehru was great for India and Gandhi for the world. You are making a vain attempt to show, that Gandhi won some popularity contest whereas unlike Jinnah and Nehru he will be remembered for time immemorial whereas the other two will be consigned to the history books of their respective countries.

Regards

 

[wtf]

And what does that have to do with anything?

To me that suggests that when it came to a 'struggle for a homeland for the people of Pakistan, Jinnah was the true model of a 'peaceful struggle' and of the victory of 'non-violence' and 'intellect' as tools to achieve an objective.

That was only possible because others were fighting the British.

That is what the difference between Gandhi and Jinnah (and Nehru) was. Gandhi/other freedom fighters fought the British. After Britain had decided to move out, Jinnah (and parts of Muslim League) stepped in and asked for a split. That role is not directly comparable to that of Jinnah's. Nehru is a more apt comparison to Jinnah (though he was also jailed a bunch of times by British).

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Jinnah was great for Pakistan and Nehru was great for India and Gandhi for the world. You are making a vain attempt to show, that Gandhi won some popularity contest whereas unlike Jinnah and Nehru he will be remembered for time immemorial whereas the other two will be consigned to the history books of their respective countries.

Regards

I am not the one trying to make X leader look better than Y by arguing over how many other leaders quote X compared to Y.

Please, my argument is not 'vain', your entire basis for comparison is absurd.