M1 trials in Pakistan

[LeGenD]

Found more:

The tank trial was a shambles. The 55-ton M l/Al behemoth, designed for the cleaner climes and hard surfaces of Europe and North America, did not fare too well in the desert of the Tamewali. A film of the trials shows the tank trying to fire on the move and from a stationary position, surrounded by clouds of dust.92 But the movement of the tanks was seriously constrained by the fact that its engines sucked up the fine dust of Tamewali and clogged its filters, jamming the Chrysler turbine engines. The most pathetic sight was of the tank trying to climb up a dirt ramp built at the site, getting stuck, and then sliding sideways off the ramp like a drunken sailor. Clearly, this was not the tank for the Pakistan Army.

Bro,

It was a one-time trial as well. Political circumstances of the time were not conducive to push for further trials and remedies for induction in Pakistan Army.

The sand intake part was addressed by Americans in 1990 due to pressure of the Gulf War.

M1 is far more reliable and capable in its current form courtesy of lessons learned from Battlefield experiences.

This trial have its place in history but people including those serving should not draw conclusions from this one-off episode. This is a mistake.

 

[Raja Porus]

Bro,

It was a one-time trial as well. Political circumstances of the time were not conducive to push for further trials and remedies for induction in Pakistan Army.

The sand intake part was addressed by Americans in 1990 due to pressure of the Gulf War.

M1 is far more reliable and capable in its current form courtesy of lessons learned from Battlefield experiences.

This trial have its place in history but people including those serving should not draw conclusions from this one-off episode. This is a mistake.

Weight and maintenance would've always been an issue for us, regardless of how it performed.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Imagine the leverage Americans would have had,
holding out supplies and repairs

if we had gone for it.

 

[Signalian]

Bro,

It was a one-time trial as well. Political circumstances of the time were not conducive to push for further trials and remedies for induction in Pakistan Army.

The sand intake part was addressed by Americans in 1990 due to pressure of the Gulf War.

M1 is far more reliable and capable in its current form courtesy of lessons learned from Battlefield experiences.

This trial have its place in history but people including those serving should not draw conclusions from this one-off episode. This is a mistake.

Hypothetically - will PA convert from 125mm to 120mm gun ?

 

[PakFactor]

Imagine the leverage Americans would have had,
holding out supplies and repairs

if we had gone for it.

That would have been a death blow for Pakistan.
But even now, our armored force is comprised of Russia-style tanks, layouts, etc., which still isn't good, and force protection isn't as excellent.

 

[Raja Porus]

That would have been a death blow for Pakistan.
But even now, our armored force is comprised of Russia-style tanks, layouts, etc., which still isn't good, and force protection isn't as excellent.

Our adversary is India.

 

[Shabi1]

In 1987, an M1A1 Abrams Tank was tested in Pakistan and its performance was terrible according to Pakistani accounts. A (Pakistani) major [in a documentary] claimed that even the Chinese Type 59 tank is better then the M1A1 Abrams Tank.

My point of contention is that if M1A1 Abrams Tank was so bad, how come it performed marvelously in diverse environments ranging from deserts to urban settings during the Persian Gulf War 1991 and Operation Iraqi Freedom? If Pakistani accounts are to be taken seriously, then M1A1 Abrams Tank should have been a failure.

NOTE: M1A1 Abrams Tank have been used in the deserts of Jordan and Afghanistan as well. Therefore, environment was never an issue.

A [BBC] documentary about the (deceased) Pakistan army chief Zia-ul-Huq contains footage of an [unidentified] gun firing a (dummy) round towards a target but misses it by considerable margin. This gun is claimed to be that of the M1A1 Abrams Tank.

However, this type of gun is (not) used in an M1A1 Abrams Tank (not even in the export model of this Tank). Therefore, I find this documentary misleading. And if Pakistani accounts are based on this footage, then they are equally misplaced and I find it strange that nobody attempted to critically evaluate this matter at official capacity.

Here is a photo of an M1A1 Abrams Tank:

The actual gun of an M1A1 Abrams Tank is [vastly] different from the gun shown in BBC documentary.

Now, here is PROOF of high accuracy of an M1A1 Abrams Tank: Imgur (A dummy round was fired towards the left-most target panel and hit the target. It shall be kept in mind that dummy rounds do not destroy targets.)

TAS (Target Acquisition System) of M1A1 Abrams Tank:

The Gunner's Primary Sight-Line of Sight (GPS-LOS), was developed by the Electro-Optical Systems Division of Hughes Aircraft Company. The night vision Thermal Imaging System (TIS), also from Hughes, creates an image based on the differences of heat radiated by objects in the field of view. The thermal image is displayed in the eyepiece of the Gunner's sight together with the range measurement to within 10 meters of accuracy, from a Hughes laser range finder, which is integrated into all of the fire control systems. The Abrams also has an onboard digital fire control computer. Range data from the laser rangefinder is transferred directly to the fire control computer, which automatically calculates the fire control solution. The data includes 1) the lead angle measurement, 2) the bend of the gun measured by the muzzle reference system of the main armament, 3) wind velocity measurement from a wind sensor on the roof of the turret and 4) the data from a pendulum static cant sensor located at the center of the turret roof. The Gunner or Commander manually inputs the data on the ammunition type and temperature, and the barometric pressure and the weapon is prepared for engagement.

Source: M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank

This disclosure is from a book of Steven J. Zaloga:

Pakistan tested the M1 tank, but disagreements with the US over its nuclear programme have prevented acquisition of the Abrams tank.

This disclosure is from a book of Pranay Gupte:

In Bahawalpur, Zia and his brass had watched a demonstration of the M1-Abrams, one of the most sophisticated tanks in the world. The manufacturer of the tank, General Dynamics Inc., was so keen to make a sale that the American company had trimmed the overall price of a package deal by $500,000 to $3 million per tank. Indeed Zia seemed so impressed by the tank's awesome capabilities that the General Dynamics executives at the scene were certain that a deal will be clinched.

Zia left the demonstration in his usual cheerful mood, pausing to chat with several local security personnel and others before he boarded the C-130. The plane took off with a roar, but in less than four minutes, while it was at an altitude of 4000 feet and still climbing, the aircraft lost radio contact with the control tower.

In the nutshell, we have conflicting accounts from different sources about this matter but I have provided (neutral) evidence that is enough to dismiss Pakistani accounts (and) the credibility of the relevant footage in the referred BBC documentary.

Therefore, all of the above leads to following questions:-

1. The M1A1 model tested in Pakistan was a prototype?
2. Pakistani accounts are FALSE?
3. Any technical information about this testing event?

Any meaningful input from the professionals is welcome but I will give preference to concrete information of the events, (not) fairy-tales like my uncle was an eye-witness and the tank was shit and blah blah.

Watch from 6:00. results vs M1A1 which wasn't as perfect as thought.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Watch from 6:00. results vs M1A1 which wasn't as perfect as thought.

M1A1 had engine problems in Pakistan as earlier abrams had engine filter issues In the desert. One could also assume that the Pakistani testing track simply wasn’t meant for a tank that heavy because the PA had no prior experience with them. It could explain the Abrams not being able to climb the gradient. And again, there’s always the chance that the tank simply sucked.
It’s accuracy being as bad as claimed is likely a myth. I’m sure it missed a few shots and then over the years the story was embellished, that or the crew was a Pakistani one that didn’t have enough prior training. There’s obviously conflicting accounts both claiming extremes, some claim It performed great and the other that it performed poorly, and as it stands there’s really nothing making either concrete, so I find this back and forth rather pointless. Especially nearly 35 years later.

Keep in Mind the VT-4 had an engine failure in Pakistani trials too. And yet we’re still using it’s regular 1200HP engine. These things are supposed to happen when you push something beyond its limits, that’s the purpose of a test.

That being said, the M1A1 is nowhere near as perfect as often claimed. There’s inherent problems with every design including the Abrams. The osario trials highlight more the capability of the new design than the flaws of the old, but the Abrams has evolved over the years, a lot of these upgrades were problem fixes rather than simply upgrades. But let me put it this way, the Abrams is far less flawed than the Al-Khalid and the VT-4 if we look at it from an objective technological perspective. It’s just that Pakistanis love to be able to say that “The mighty Abrams wasn’t good enough for us”

And don’t even get me started on how poorly maintained a good part of the Abrams fleet is in the US army.

Hypothetically - will PA convert from 125mm to 120mm gun ?

At that stage? Yes, very likely, if anything they might even have been eager. This was before the widespread adoption of 125MM Guns and ammunition by PA and they had mainly been using American tanks and ammo before it (M48A5s). So if the Abrams was inducted, we would likely see the PA still have 120MM as it’s standard and would probably even see local upgrades to the Abrams program during the embargo period. The Al-Khalid would still likely happen but also with a 120MM gun and more American influences. You could say the tank PA would skip entirely due to the Abrams would be the Type 85-IIAP and maybe the T80UD if they got them in enough numbers.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I think once the Altay MBT enters production, we might see the Pakistan Army bring it over for tests. I think the VT-4 induction paves the way for the PA's tanks getting heavier on average. So, if you're enhancing the existing logistics and infrastructure, you might as well see if the even heavier MBTs (like Altay) can fare in our environment.

The VT-4 is about to become the most numerous tank in the PA by far. The weight jump between the VT-4 and the Altay is quite significant however compared to the weight jump from the AK-1 to the VT-4. Turkey would also need to provide provision for the installation of a 125MM gun, it’s breech, it’s relevant MRS and an auto loader, which I don’t think is possible with the existing design unless it’s changed from the ground up.

It could be that Pakistan might bite the logistical pill and induct it as is with the 120MM gun, western ammo and the 4 man crew, but then it would need differently trained crews as well because of the entirely different 4 man system. It would need separate supply lines as it shares no parts with the existing fleet and so on. It just seems like an unlikely purchase as it stands, but I have a feeling they might still show interest.

 

[Abid123]

The VT-4 is about to become the most numerous tank in the PA by far. The weight jump between the VT-4 and the Altay is quite significant however compared to the weight jump from the AK-1 to the VT-4. Turkey would also need to provide provision for the installation of a 125MM gun, it’s breech, it’s relevant MRS and an auto loader, which I don’t think is possible with the existing design unless it’s changed from the ground up.

It could be that Pakistan might bite the logistical pill and induct it as is with the 120MM gun, western ammo and the 4 man crew, but then it would need differently trained crews as well because of the entirely different 4 man system. It would need separate supply lines as it shares no parts with the existing fleet and so on. It just seems like an unlikely purchase as it stands, but I have a feeling they might still show interest.

How many VT-4 tanks you think PA will induct?

 

[PakFactor]

Our adversary is India.

Yes, I know; I still wouldn't take AK-1 and VT-4s as I would rather have tank and crew survivability. We see the effects of Russian-influenced weapons in Ukraine. We also need to see beyond India as it's not the only enemy.

 

[iLION12345_1]

How many VT-4 tanks you think PA will induct?

460 ordered directly From China (176 fully assembled, the rest in Semi-complete state to be assembled at HIT). 110 from HIT (Full assembly at HIT with CKDs). Then another 110 from HIT (Planned). And even that might not be the end of it, depends on just how much the PA wants to replace with the VT-4.

 

[ali_raza]

why not sell all the t80ud to ukrain in this time when we can get enough money for them and oreder more vt4

 

[Basel]

@Muhammad Omar

You have a point. However, Zia-ul-Haq's sudden demise may also have led to cancellation of the deal, no?

People may have thought that CIA have something to do with assassination of the COAS, no?

The M1 perform badly in our desert area, the sand and conditions in our desert is said to be deferent from ME.

It was also maintenance heavy tank and PA didn't wanted a tank which broke down in middle of war zone.

Hypothetically - will PA convert from 125mm to 120mm gun ?

While west is looking for 130mm gun for tanks.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The VT-4 is about to become the most numerous tank in the PA by far. The weight jump between the VT-4 and the Altay is quite significant however compared to the weight jump from the AK-1 to the VT-4. Turkey would also need to provide provision for the installation of a 125MM gun, it’s breech, it’s relevant MRS and an auto loader, which I don’t think is possible with the existing design unless it’s changed from the ground up.

It could be that Pakistan might bite the logistical pill and induct it as is with the 120MM gun, western ammo and the 4 man crew, but then it would need differently trained crews as well because of the entirely different 4 man system. It would need separate supply lines as it shares no parts with the existing fleet and so on. It just seems like an unlikely purchase as it stands, but I have a feeling they might still show interest.

The Turks seem to be go-getters provided there's a genuine business opportunity. So, they could look at developing an entirely new 'eastern' Altay variant (with a 125 mm gun and other specific changes). However, you'd have to present a real market worthy of the investment. That or we work with Turkey to develop a heavier tank from the ground-up, but using the COTS Turkish inputs so as to control costs and complexity.