M1 trials in Pakistan

[Signalian]

It was based on 72 but by no means a variant.

whats the difference in not being a variant?

 

[Raja Porus]

I wouldn’t even accidentally call them the best tanks for urban warfare (or any warfare), especially in FATA or Syria. They were used out of necessity. If terrorists armed with small arms can take out multiple such tanks (including Multiple Al-Zarrars), then that tank has no business being used let alone called good.

The Type 59 became obsolete before the century started and no amount of upgrades, including the Al-Zarrar, have ever made it an objectively good tank, it has remained since the 80s, nothing but a necessity of numbers, regardless of the place it has been used in.

Also there were no German guns used on PA Type 59s. The barrel blanks were at one pointed imported from France, some still are. Germany helped set up the Gun manufacturing facility at HIT sure, but the guns are Chinese copies of the L7 and then a Pakistani version of that.

They should have been decommissioned in the 80s, they’re a major hazard in warfare to the point where I hope PA will save their crews instead of sending these things out into the battlefield, since obviously that’s not possible, the second best option is to have them retired before they’re ever needed in combat again. Using them against india Will be like sending Troops to a minefield where the enemy has planned an ambush in an unarmored hilux, and we know how fond PA is of doing that.

PA must have atleast 14-20 T59/69 regts( with 8,15,10,11,14 and 16ID)

 

[Dazzler]

whats the difference in not being a variant?

Only the OEM, UVG in this case, can make variants of the 72 as they have the IPR for it. No other maker can make it's variants without getting legally penalized.

M84 had major differences specific to Yugoslavian army.

 

[Mrc]

'60-ton beast': Ret. General describes tank US is looking to send to Ukraine | CNN

A senior military official says US tanks are on the table to send to Ukraine. Brig. Gen. Steve Anderson (Ret.) explains why he thinks the US should continue meeting Ukraine's requirements and whether the country should put contractors on the ground to help with logistics.

www.cnn.com

Not the holy grail of tanks according to general like some believe.

 

[Inception-06]

Turkey has used these in LICs. PA downgraded T-69 gun and put them under FC service. The 105mm equipped M48A5 would have fared well also through numbers.

If the M-48A5 would haben been overhauled and then stored, it would have been a valuable reserve fleet of Tanks.

Negative. They are death traps. Their crews are more useful as foot infantry than being sent in these machines if you ask me. Obviously PA treating a soldier like a tool of war will not see it that way, they need tanks in numbers, it’s hard to grasp just how outdated these things are on a modern battlefield. How slow, cumbersome and vulnerable they are. Doesn’t the Al-Zarrar have enough upgrades to qualify as “Some Anti-Ballistic modifications”? And it’ll still go up in flames if an RPG hits it turret, killing the entire crew.

I get why they’re still used, even the un-upgraded Type 59s, we simply don’t have any other option, but that doesn’t mean these tanks are useful by any stretch of the imagination, let alone good.

I have to disagree, sorry but I am absolutely disappointed. I had written years ago and many times about this topic, obsolete Tanks and their role as Infantry support.

 

[Inception-06]

Negative. They are death traps. Their crews are more useful as foot infantry than being sent in these machines if you ask me. Obviously PA treating a soldier like a tool of war will not see it that way, they need tanks in numbers, it’s hard to grasp just how outdated these things are on a modern battlefield. How slow, cumbersome and vulnerable they are. Doesn’t the Al-Zarrar have enough upgrades to qualify as “Some Anti-Ballistic modifications”? And it’ll still go up in flames if an RPG hits it turret, killing the entire crew.

I get why they’re still used, even the un-upgraded Type 59s, we simply don’t have any other option, but that doesn’t mean these tanks are useful by any stretch of the imagination, let alone good.

I found my article from 2015, I have modified it a little bit.
———————————————————
As for Any Tank in Pakistani service:

“The main gun provides direct fire in support of infantry, engaging stationary and mobile enemy targets, such as bunkers to create a combined arms effect of overmatched firepower that improves survivability of the foot Infantrymen .“

————————————————-


The Al-Zarrar Tanks and Type-59/Type-69 series shouldn’t be frontline Tanks in any Indo-Pak war, but the second line. While Pakistani Infantry moving exposed in an battlefield environment, dismounted Pakistani infantry troops may be subjected to intense hostile fire, sources of which are sometimes difficult to locate. Normal small unit weapons lack adequate firepower for subduing well protected Indian bunkers and, especially, carefully camouflaged positions. Also Indias harassing artillery fire and Infantry fighting vehicles like the BMP series will be a difficult obstacle for the Pakistani Infantrymen. In this type of situation, the danger of fratricide casualties also becomes acute. This inferiority can be compensated for by using “Armored Gun System” like the the US Stryker equipped with a105mm Gun, but in Pakistans case the ones available are the Tank Al-Zarrar and it’s T-59/69 series, this second line Tanks can strike a balance between heavy armor and infantry.

The Pakistani Al-Zarrar Tanks and Type-59/69 series can be deployed as Infantry close fire support weapons for storm assaults, an infantry support weapon in the breakthrough of Indian defence lines role. Once an attack supported by infantry, tanks had broken through heavily defended areas in the enemy lines, faster tanks such as Al-Khalid or
T-80 UD can expected to use their higher speed and longer range to operate far behind the front and cut the Indian lines of supply and communications or attack Indian Tank formations. The value of tank support for foot infantrymen cannot be underestimated in an Indo-Pak war scenario, in which a commander wishes to use all available combat elements in order to reduce casualties.
—————————————

The advantage of such secondline Tank Brigades is their Fast and close fire support which no other weapon in Pakistan Army inventory can give and that at low costs, while they can easily join the heavier and modern armored units as second attack line.


Give me please war realistic arguments not to use this Tanks in Indo Pak war, by the way Ukraine is now getting 30 T-55 Tanks from Slovenia.

@Raja Porus you are welcome to join the session as anybody else with pro and contras.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I found my article from 2015, I have modified it a little bit.
———————————————————
As for Any Tank in Pakistani service:

“The main gun provides direct fire in support of infantry, engaging stationary and mobile enemy targets, such as bunkers to create a combined arms effect of overmatched firepower that improves survivability of the foot Infantrymen .“

————————————————-


The Al-Zarrar Tanks and Type-59/Type-69 series shouldn’t be frontline Tanks in any Indo-Pak war, but the second line. While Pakistani Infantry moving exposed in an battlefield environment, dismounted Pakistani infantry troops may be subjected to intense hostile fire, sources of which are sometimes difficult to locate. Normal small unit weapons lack adequate firepower for subduing well protected Indian bunkers and, especially, carefully camouflaged positions. Also Indias harassing artillery fire and Infantry fighting vehicles like the BMP series will be a difficult obstacle for the Pakistani Infantrymen. In this type of situation, the danger of fratricide casualties also becomes acute. This inferiority can be compensated for by using “armored vehicles” like the the US Stryker, but in Pakistans case the ones available Tank Al-Zarrar and it’s T-59/69 series. Al-Zarrar Tank are adequately protected by add-on armor or other protective suites capable of withstanding Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPG).

View attachment 881236

The Pakistani Al-Zarrar Tanks and Type-59/69 series can be deployed as Infantry close fire support weapons for storm assaults, an infantry support weapon in the breakthrough of Indian defence lines role. Once an attack supported by infantry, tanks had broken through heavily defended areas in the enemy lines, faster tanks such as Al-Khalid or
T-80 UD can expected to use their higher speed and longer range to operate far behind the front and cut the Indian lines of supply and communications or attack Indian Tank formations. The value of tank support for foot infantrymen cannot be underestimated in an Indo-Pak war scenario, in which a commander wishes to use all available combat elements in order to reduce casualties.
—————————————

The advantage of such secondline Tank Brigades is their Fast and close fire support which no other weapon in Pakistan Army inventory can give and that at low costs, while they can easily join the heavier and modern armored units as second attack line.


Give me please war realistic arguments not to use this Tanks in Indo Pak war, by the way Ukraine is now getting 30 T-55 Tanks from Slovenia.

@Raja Porus you are welcome to join the session as anybody else with pro and contras.

I will stand by my arguments firmly.

The first mistake the article makes is assuming that PA uses these machines in second line roles, this is a very very recent development and is still not entirely true given these machines didn’t start properly retiring until last year. They were expected to face Indian armor, ATGMs and infantry head on. Using the crews as foot infantry might have been more Effective in that regard for all I care.

Secondly, they most definitely cannot withstand an RPG or other portable AT munitions. Not only because the front is but one of a tanks sides, but because their mobility and situational awareness is poor. Their reliability is poor (yes, the standards of reliability for tanks has gone up immensely since the 1950s and 60s, so too has the age of these tanks, not a good combo). Their Firepower is nearly irrelevant against most things simply because they lack an FCS. Their range is far too limited.

Thirdly, we are assuming here that these tanks, even if used in second line roles, will not be facing AT weaponry, they most definitely will be, and Indian ATGMs are not going to differentiate between a Type 59 and a VT-4P, nor is the Indian armored reserve, made up of T72s, which while obsolete itself is a considerably better tank than a Type 59, even with the few improvements we’ve given ours.

I just don’t think people grasp how painfully obsolete these things are. Do not compare them to strykers or modern IFVs. The crew comfort is atrociously bad, there is no AC, the suspension is ancient, the range is less than a quarter of a modern ATGM (which Indians will have in their bunkers) or IFV. The crew compartment is very cramped, there are no provisions for Ammo safety, no fire extinguishers. Any penetrating hit (not hard to achieve) will result in a catastrophic explosion likely killing the entire crew.

Training under no stress is one thing, fighting under stress is another, being in a hot armored hull is one on top of that, and to have that hull be a falling apart husk from the 60s? I’ve driven these machines, the average soldiers combat efficiency probably drops by a factor of 20 having to fight in one of those, hence me using the analogy of sending a Hilux into a minefield with an ambush. These are the things we don’t consider in a battlefield, that its not just how big of a gun or how thick the armor is, it’s how ergonomic and dependable the machine is too, and let me tell you these things are neither.

These units also cannot join the newer tanks as a second line as easily, simply because in many cases they’d be slowing down the forward offensive due to their bad reliability, low speed And poor terrain crossing capability.

Trust me, if we were fighting a conventional war, we’d have people complaining about these things the way they do about Hiluxs these days, and rightfully so, we use these machines out of pure necessity hoping they’ll be gone before they’re ever needed.

Do we remember what American Tanks did to T72s and T55s in Iraq? That was decades ago. These are tanks even older than those T72s, In 2022. What sort of an outcome are we expecting exactly? I’m fully aware how poorly trained Iraqi crews were, but Crews don’t make a difference when the enemy can hit you before you even spot them.

Ukraine is not a good example because they’re not fighting a conventional war in my book. The Russian forces certainly are not set up or behaving like an army with a strategy, and Ukraine is desperate, very desperate. Nor do I see T55s winning or even affecting the war in Ukraine, but I certainly see Just Plain old Handheld AT weapons doing a lot, against Modern Tanks. Now imagine those same weapons in 10x the quantity against Obsolete tanks.

And if we really just need an example, maybe the Type 59s and Al-Zarrars (and their crews) we lost in the WoT are enough. We lost those tanks to an adversary that didn’t have AT weapons beyond RPGs and some SPGs.

PA must have atleast 14-20 T59/69 regts( with 8,15,10,11,14 and 16ID)

Unfortunately so. But they’re being retired now. Personally saw the first few being driven into cold storage last year. Hopefully many more have followed since.

 

[Inception-06]

I will stand by my arguments firmly.

The first mistake the article makes is assuming that PA uses these machines in second line roles, this is a very very recent development and is still not entirely true given these machines didn’t start properly retiring until last year. They were expected to face Indian armor, ATGMs and infantry head on. Using the crews as foot infantry might have been more Effective in that regard for all I care.

Secondly, they most definitely cannot withstand an RPG or other portable AT munitions. Not only because the front is but one of a tanks sides, but because their mobility and situational awareness is poor. Their reliability is poor (yes, the standards of reliability for tanks has gone up immensely since the 1950s and 60s, so too has the age of these tanks, not a good combo). Their Firepower is nearly irrelevant against most things simply because they lack an FCS. Their range is far too limited.

Thirdly, we are assuming here that these tanks, even if used in second line roles, will not be facing AT weaponry, they most definitely will be, and Indian ATGMs are not going to differentiate between a Type 59 and a VT-4P, nor is the Indian armored reserve, made up of T72s, which while obsolete itself is a considerably better tank than a Type 59, even with the few improvements we’ve given ours.

I just don’t think people grasp how painfully obsolete these things are. Do not compare them to strykers or modern IFVs. The crew comfort is atrociously bad, there is no AC, the suspension is ancient, the range is less than a quarter of a modern ATGM (which Indians will have in their bunkers) or IFV. The crew compartment is very cramped, there are no provisions for Ammo safety, no fire extinguishers. Any penetrating hit (not hard to achieve) will result in a catastrophic explosion likely killing the entire crew.

Training under no stress is one thing, fighting under stress is another, being in a hot armored hull is one on top of that, and to have that hull be a falling apart husk from the 60s? I’ve driven these machines, the average soldiers combat efficiency probably drops by a factor of 20 having to fight in one of those, hence me using the analogy of sending a Hilux into a minefield with an ambush. These are the things we don’t consider in a battlefield, that its not just how big of a gun or how thick the armor is, it’s how ergonomic and dependable the machine is too, and let me tell you these things are neither.

These units also cannot join the newer tanks as a second line as easily, simply because in many cases they’d be slowing down the forward offensive due to their bad reliability, low speed And poor terrain crossing capability.

Trust me, if we were fighting a conventional war, we’d have people complaining about these things the way they do about Hiluxs these days, and rightfully so, we use these machines out of pure necessity hoping they’ll be gone before they’re ever needed.

Do we remember what American Tanks did to T72s and T55s in Iraq? That was decades ago. These are tanks even older than those T72s, In 2022. What sort of an outcome are we expecting exactly? I’m fully aware how poorly trained Iraqi crews were, but Crews don’t make a difference when the enemy can hit you before you even spot them.

Ukraine is not a good example because they’re not fighting a conventional war in my book. The Russian forces certainly are not set up or behaving like an army with a strategy, and Ukraine is desperate, very desperate. Nor do I see T55s winning or even affecting the war in Ukraine, but I certainly see Just Plain old Handheld AT weapons doing a lot, against Modern Tanks. Now imagine those same weapons in 10x the quantity against Obsolete tanks.

And if we really just need an example, maybe the Type 59s and Al-Zarrars (and their crews) we lost in the WoT are enough. We lost those tanks to an adversary that didn’t have AT weapons beyond RPGs and some SPGs.


Unfortunately so. But they’re being retired now. Personally saw the first few being driven into cold storage last year. Hopefully many more have followed since.

I guess you served in Armoured Corps ?

Sounds great, thanks for your inputs in PDF.
I am handling now CNC machines.

 

[iLION12345_1]

We can't afford Bradley FV or newer expensive armored vehicles, These tanks are easily available everywhere. Need some anti-billistic modifications and are ready to roll.

In Syrian urban war,

View attachment 881173
View attachment 881174
View attachment 881176

View attachment 881175

Check some videos on what’s happened to these tanks when hit with ATGMs. This is india, the 4th largest armed forces in the world, not Syria.

I guess you served in Armoured red Corps ?

I have not served anywhere. I have only been lucky enough to experience many things in life, the Pakistani armored fleet is one of them. I grew up sitting on these things while their crews prepared them in their Units.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Sounds great, thanks for your inputs in PDF.
I am handling now CNC machines.

You’re welcome. And thank you too for your encouragement and constructive arguments over the years, they’re what this forum should be.

Coincidentally, CNC might just be more up my alley than tanks in a few years time.

I’ve talked to you before about your service in the German forces I believe. I definitely realize you speak from experience and far more so than I. I’m definitely not disregarding your opinion, maybe there’s more truth to it than mine. But that’s why we have constructive criticism after all, multiple opinions, each with some rights and some wrongs, in that vain how much PA has been able to do with these old machines is impressive in its own right.