Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

[Paan Singh]

you indeed have a logic in your post which might have attraced people around you especially the economic progress of pakistan which she would have gained had all been cozy with india.
But lets see the other side of picture and its upto you to see how much logic it held.
1)The moral and just ground.India and Pak were divided on the lines of religion and kashmir was and still is 90% muslims populated so its unification with india was both morally and justly wrong.
2) You peole claim there are only 70 thousand troops though in reality the no is around 5-6 lacs suppressing kashmiries and if I am wrong why dont you Just hold a plebiscite in presence of neutral observers and show the world how much kashmiries loves you and finish this nuasance for once and all
3) The economic front as you mentioned there is no doubt Pakistan lost a lot due to his issues with india and also due to india's proxies inside pakistan and india's diplomatic efforts to damage pakistan's causes whenever and whereever possible but have you guys ever calculated the losses india incurred because of this kashmir? If Pakistan had no issue with kashmir india would have got an oil and gas pipline from iran two decades ago giving india all the energy she so desperately needs to compete china.Just imagine where india would have been today if she had rail and road connections with Iran,russia,all central asian states,iraq till turker the volume of your exports must be manifold what you have now and india owing to his large population must have been much ahead of china.
So india has lost a lot more than Pakistan owing to this conflict

Pakistan has passed it hardest times and this first democratical trasnsition would be a witness that we are going in the right direction.If we can accomodate all this inidan propaganda and backbiting these six decades we have no issue dealing that now when are are becoming more stronger and 2014 isnt that far now when indian involvemnet in af'tan where from shez handling her proxies in Pak is gonna come to an abrupt end but on the other hand india would never be able to what she should be owing to her size just coz of kashmir.
And let me ask you what kashmir is giving you except some ego boost if its about water then all of that water is coming from tibet and can be stopped by china anytime if they want to ...On the other hand solving kashmir can give your economy an unbelievable boost.

I am not asking you to give us kashmir just ask them what they want if they want to be independent we have no issue or which is very unlikely if they want to be with india we again have no issue but just ask them.what india is afraid of?
This was just the other side of picture which unfortunately most of emotional inidans fail to see..

The moral and just ground.India and Pak were divided on the lines of religion and kashmir was and still is 90% muslims populated so its unification with india was both morally and justly wrong.

leh ladakh is buddhist dominated area and jammu have more than 50% of hindus with sikhs and kashmir have 70% muslims.
tell me how 90% is muslim?

You peole claim there are only 70 thousand troops though in reality the no is around 5-6 lacs suppressing kashmiries and if I am wrong why dont you Just hold a plebiscite in presence of neutral observers and show the world how much kashmiries loves you and finish this nuasance for once and all

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/214144-myth-700000-forces-kashmir.html

would have got an oil and gas pipline from iran two decades ago giving india all the energy she so desperately needs to compete china.Just imagine where india would have been today if she had rail and road connections with Iran,russia,all central asian states,iraq till turker the volume of your exports must be manifold what you have now and india owing to his large population must have been much ahead of china.[/color]
So india has lost a lot more than Pakistan owing to this conflict

we dont need pakistani route thats why we have invested in chabahr port of iran.

I am not asking you to give us kashmir just ask them what they want if they want to be independent we have no issue or which is very unlikely if they want to be with india we again have no issue but just ask them.what india is afraid of?
This was just the other side of picture which unfortunately most of emotional inidans fail to see.

WE cant coz it will further create problem in integrity of india.

and why we should give?

ladakh have buddhist and jammu have 50% hindus with sikhs.
and who told you that entire kashmir is against india? there are 20-30%,who are against india and you say we will liberate kashmir?

 

[batmannow]

leh ladakh is buddhist dominated area and jammu have more than 50% of hindus with sikhs and kashmir have 70% muslims.
tell me how 90% is muslim?



http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/214144-myth-700000-forces-kashmir.html



we dont need pakistani route thats why we have invested in chabahr port of iran.



WE cant coz it will further create problem in integrity of india.

and why we should give?

ladakh have buddhist and jammu have 50% hindus with sikhs.
and who told you that entire kashmir is against india? there are 20-30%,who are against india and you say we will liberate kashmir?

we will some day liberate kashmir even it means, 1000 more kargills! thats the bottom line in the end?

Some people find it a bad omen(Pakistanis) and others a good celebration(Indians) that somehow the Pakistani Army and its leadership is under fire. But what they all ignore, and especially the detractors who are somehow laughing with glee at such "revelations"(regardless of the reports of our troops unmatched valor) is that this incites the need for removal of all remaining unprofessional attitudes within the military.
That means you will no longer be dealing with a military that is prone to stupid mistakes.. but rather that no longer has loose nuts and bolts. A deadlier and more effective fighting machine..
If I were the enemy, Id prefer loose cannons and miscalculating ******** heading my foe rather than people who have a much higher ability to take the right and most effective decision.

professionalism doesnt means, you become a emotion less robot, to obey a croupt person?
& specially PAKARMY you, need more than professionalism, to be a soilder! belive me friend!
i think , most of the internet gurus here, will never agree with me, but its the dam reality?
all just it takes to become a soilder with gun & be on LOC for just 24 hours in the end! it needs courge , sacrifice, bravry all are emotions friend

 

[Albatross]

leh ladakh is buddhist dominated area and jammu have more than 50% of hindus with sikhs and kashmir have 70% muslims.
tell me how 90% is muslim?



http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/214144-myth-700000-forces-kashmir.html



we dont need pakistani route thats why we have invested in chabahr port of iran.



WE cant coz it will further create problem in integrity of india.

and why we should give?

ladakh have buddhist and jammu have 50% hindus with sikhs.
and who told you that entire kashmir is against india? there are 20-30%,who are against india and you say we will liberate kashmir?

your whole comment is based on kashmir population and here is the fact..
Ten districts in Kashmir valley (Kashmir Division of the Jammu and Kashmir state) had population of 6,907,623 as per 2011 census. The religious composition was 97.16% Muslim and 2.84% Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist and others.[13][14]
Kashmir Valley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chahbar can never give you what Pak could have ..As now we are allowing them to build a gas pipeline till punjab so we will increase our leverage accordingly.After 2014 indians will be out of A'tan so I dont know what you are talking about.
I am here for serious discussion not to troll or bully you ..
So dont come up again with lies bro whatever I said earlier and now its all true and for the betterment of India and Pak but unfortunately you people are too emotional to see the reality.
Now before saying anything else just show me the proof of kashmir population and I am not talking about ladakh you can keep that I am talking about the valley of kashmir...

 

[Irfan Baloch]

what do you mean by "siachin would have been under Indian control ? it is under Indian control before and after kargil war.

thats right, your army even controls northern areas of Pakistan and have your bases ion Gilgit and Sakardu. its in fact just above the hills of margalla overlooking Islamabad.

 

[Paan Singh]

your whole comment is based on kashmir population and here is the fact..
Ten districts in Kashmir valley (Kashmir Division of the Jammu and Kashmir state) had population of 6,907,623 as per 2011 census. The religious composition was 97.16% Muslim and 2.84% Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist and others.[13][14]
Kashmir Valley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chahbar can never give you what Pak could have ..As now we are allowing them to build a gas pipeline till punjab so we will increase our leverage accordingly.After 2014 indians will be out of A'tan so I dont know what you are talking about.
I am here for serious discussion not to troll or bully you ..
So dont come up again with lies bro whatever I said earlier and now its all true and for the betterment of India and Pak but unfortunately you people are too emotional to see the reality.
Now before saying anything else just show me the proof of kashmir population and I am not talking about ladakh you can keep that I am talking about the valley of kashmir...

Three major faiths are each clearly dominant in different parts of the erstwhile princely state of Jammu and Kashmir. Islam is virtually the sole religion throughout the Northern Areas and Azad Kashmir on the Pakistani side of the 1972 Line of Control, accounting for more than 99.5% of the population in every single district of those two areas. On the Indian side of the LOC, Islam is clearly dominant in Kashmir, is also the leading faith in three of the six districts of Jammu, and accounts for a large majority of the population in the Kargil tahsil of Kargil district. Hinduism, the second most numerous faith, accounts for a majority of the population in the three southernmost districts of Jammu and in that region as a whole. Followers of the Tibetan form of Buddhism are a decided majority in the large, but thinly populated district of Leh and in Zanskar tahsil in the southern part of Kargil district. In Jammu and Kashmir as a whole, Islam is by far the leading faith and, with 74.9% of the total population, it accounted for a somewhat larger share of the total than it did at the time of partition, when, judging from the 1941 census, it accounted for 72.9% of the population.

1)We dont need pakistani route for gas or oil supply.
There are other countries who are in queue to supply gas in cheap rates like U.S n israel.
Your pipeline will always be in dream like it is now coz U.S is here till 2024,they will surely back out forces but will remain with 15k or more force.

2) Entire J&K is included when we talk about state.I m not talking about kashmir valley alone and muslims are in majority in those areas,i hv no doubt.

and please leave what will happen after 2014.You are just making castle in air.

 

[Albatross]

@ paansingh

Dont give local raw made maps give something international like I gave you wikipedia.we are talking about kashmir only and it is lot bigger as compare to what is shown in your map ...Kashmir was muslim populated in 47 and is now dont talk about things as a whole as in that case whole subcontinent was hindu majority and there was no need of division..It was unjust to unite kashmir with india and that the bottom line if you want pipelines from space go ahead we dont give a damn as we have china whoz much interested in pipelines from iran and saudi arabia after making an oil city in gwadar ..And a train link to gwadar along with pipeliens plus a link till CAR's so we are not lost and even today our per capita income is better than india and our poverty levels are far less than yours so Its not us who would have benefitted from india it was the other way around only if you had wisdom to understand that...

 

[SQ8]

i think your military will remain as loose cannon.Few qns were raised in debate that did u learn anything since 65 war which was started by you by same way?? i.e sending infiltrators.

answer is nothing!!!!!!!!

you dint learn anything in 35 years and there are few retired officers who says that it can be repeated again,so you will always remain as loose cannon.

You have left choices over to india now .

Thats just your view to somehow continue to maintain that Pakistan will suffer as it is your wish.
Not a reply to what I proposed.

 

[Chak Bamu]

1. For Indian posters: It is sometime worthwhile to allow a discussion to develop before yielding to the urge to make comments. This might have been a hearty discussion involving soul-searching, tough questions, and assessment of Musharraf - by Pakistanis. By jumping in this discussion, some of you have given it the India vs. Pakistan twist early on and one has to plough through a large number of posts for little gain. The important posts that might be worthy of response to develop ideas, challenge assumptions, and correct misinformation get buried under pages and pages of nonsensical tit-for-tat posts. A little patience could be very rewarding sometimes. The only poster genuinely committed to this discussion from y'all has been @KRAIT. I can clearly see his sincerity. As for the rest of you.... what can I say?

2. For Pakistanis who happen to support Musharraf: One can categorize Musharraf-supporters in two broad categories:

The first category is people who happen to be between 20 to 35 years of age. These people started taking interest in important national issues during Musharraf's time in power. With all the blaring propaganda at the time, one can not really blame them for having formed a favorable impression of Musharraf. What is problematic is the dogged persistence in holding a counter-logical opinion. When things seem so clear in hind-sight, it is a wonder how can anyone not see Musharraf for who he really was? One can not feel compelled to carry an opinion just because it felt correct at some time. One learns, grows, matures; what good is it all if one be childish or muleheaded and stick to an opinion inspite of all the evidence. One would find such people blaming the messenger (med-ia, critics, history buffs).

The second category is people who find something to share with Musharraf's background. Typical of such people are Urdu-speakers of Karachi, Hyderabad, etc... Such people would also think that Shaukat Aziz did wonders for Pakistan. Another segment is of people belonging to Syed biradari. They would support Musharraf just because he is one of them.

People (like myself) who support our Army are mostly divided, but one can still find a greater proportion of Musharraf-supporters as compared to general population. That is why people on forums like this would rally to support him, even when it is manifest and clear that he was a disaster for Pakistan. This forum and moderators are much more tolerant than at PakDef, which is a strange corner of cyberspace where anyone who questions Musharraf is cast out at the speed of light. One wonders how anyone can still mention names like Kaiser Tufail there?

3. Media operates with some unwritten rules and a set of unspoken assumptions. The anchors have individual backgrounds and differences. And yet they are all journalists basically. Once you start to follow and observe some of them, you can discern individual traits, quirks, sympathies, orientation, and philosophies. I have observed and followed Hamid Mir ever since his BBC interview with John Simpson in 2001. Someone here has called him a traitor, someone has labelled him as a sympathizer of PML(N), while @haviZsultan has averred that he in fact leans towards PPP. Dare I disagree....?

4. Unless we are able to put our individual bisases aside, we can not appreciate the truth. Let me ask a straight question: Can anyone say that our government and our Army have ever been transparent when it comes to Kargil? Most of you might say that indeed Kargil has stayed under an opaque veil. Can then we criticize people who after all this time have started telling the truth about what really happened? Is it not that same old "shoot the messenger" mentality, if we call these people names and refuse to listen to them, even when we know that they are right? Most of us enjoy the remarkable prose and accurate detail provided by AC(R) Kaiser Tufail. But why would some of us not agree to his retelling the events of Kargil even though he is a worthy witness?

5. Some principles are inviolable. One can not tolerate a state that lies to its people. Kargil story we were fed was a lie. As long as Musharraf stayed in power, people only whispered and hinted at the truth. Much as I hate having to admit this, there is no denying that our Generals were wrong in precipitating a crisis that became a dead weight for Pakistan. After Kargil, nobody trusted us. While our government was talking peace with India, our Army was busy doing the opposite. Kashmir cause suffered greatly because of it. International community went deaf to our pleadings. I can understand the indignation that Indians have at this sordid business. It is best to just admit where we went wrong. Had Kargil been openly declared equivalent of what India did in Siachen, we might have something solid to say in our defense. Our soldiers' commitment made them go beyond what was asked of them. Their sacrifices may be known someday. But it is a shame that these noble souls were cannon-fodder for Musharraf and his cronies.

 

[Paan Singh]

@ paansingh

Dont give local raw made maps give something international like I gave you wikipedia.we are talking about kashmir only and it is lot bigger as compare to what is shown in your map ...Kashmir was muslim populated in 47 and is now dont talk about things as a whole as in that case whole subcontinent was hindu majority and there was no need of division..It was unjust to unite kashmir with india and that the bottom line if you want pipelines from space go ahead we dont give a damn as we have china whoz much interested in pipelines from iran and saudi arabia after making an oil city in gwadar ..And a train link to gwadar along with pipeliens plus a link till CAR's so we are not lost and even today our per capita income is better than india and our poverty levels are far less than yours so Its not us who would have benefitted from india it was the other way around only if you had wisdom to understand that...

ok sir , i dnt hv wisdom

now spare me

Thats just your view to somehow continue to maintain that Pakistan will suffer as it is your wish.
Not a reply to what I proposed.

i told you that you dint learn any lesson.

and STILL,your generals says that we will do kargil again.

 

[Albatross]

@ Paansingh


You had actually noreply regarding kashmir's 97 % muslims population..And its not only our generals its all of us the whole nation who will never let go kashmir unless they want themselves to be with india something thats next to impossible...Butyeah I would assure you the next stint wont be like kargil as the mood thats developing now is do or die...
PUT DOZENS OF MISSILES ON THE BORDER LOADED WITH NUKES SO THAT INDIA DOESNT DARE TO OPEN INTERNATIONAL BORDER AND THEN ATTACK KASHMIR IN CONVENTIONAL WAY AND WITH THE HELP OF LOCAL KASHMIRIES YOUTH KICK INDIANS OUT.IN WORST CASE IF INDIA OPTS TO OPEN INTERNATIONAL BORDER NUKE THEM ...THEY WILL NUKE YOU BACK AND IF BOTH COUNTRIES ARE TOTALLY DESTROYED THERE WOULD STILL BE A BILLION MUSLIMS IN WORLD BUT THERE WOULD BE ONLY A FEW THOUSAND HINDUS AND SIKHS SO IN THE END WE WILL BE THE WINNING ONE AT ANY COST AND KSA WILL TAKE OVER THIS WHOLE LAND TO BUILD A NEW MUSLIM NATION .......WHOSE FLAG WOULD BE

I GUESS THIS IS IT.....THERE IS NOTHING ELSE TO SAY WE NUKE YOU AND YOU NUKE US WHAT ELSE????NOW DONT START THAT INDIA IS BIG AND WILL BE LEFT AS WE HAVE 350 KM NUKE CRUISE MISSILE RA'AD ON OUR JF17 EVEN WE WILL MAKE SURE EVERY INCH OF INDIA IS GONE THOUGH THERE ARE MUSLIMS TOO BUT FOR A LARGER GOOD WE WILL SACRIFICE THE MUSLIMS OF BOTH THESE COUNTRIES AS EVEN THEN MORE HINDUS AND SKIHS WOULD KILLED SO WORLD WILL BE MORE CLEANER AND ALSO LATER ON ONLY MUSLIMS WILL BE THERE IN THE WHOLE SUBCONTINENT SO WE WILL BE PLEASED IN AFTER LIFE

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

thats right, your army even controls northern areas of Pakistan and have your bases ion Gilgit and Sakardu. its in fact just above the hills of margalla overlooking Islamabad.

sure if you say so.

 

[GURU DUTT]

@GURU DUTT : Guru Pahain kuch ziyadaa nahin ho giyaaa !

kuch galat kaha kya maine sirji

 

[RazPaK]

Yeh Hindu idar paagal hogay hain. Inki baat hi to mazaak hain.

 

[KRAIT]

Yeh Hindu idar paagal hogay hain. Inki baat hi to mazaak hain.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...tack-pakistan-army-checkpost.html#post3874221

Yahan kaun pagal hai ?

Kyunki ye log Hindus ne nahin maare.

 

[illusion8]

@ Paansingh


You had actually noreply regarding kashmir's 97 % muslims population..And its not only our generals its all of us the whole nation who will never let go kashmir unless they want themselves to be with india something thats next to impossible...Butyeah I would assure you the next stint wont be like kargil as the mood thats developing now is do or die...
PUT DOZENS OF MISSILES ON THE BORDER LOADED WITH NUKES SO THAT INDIA DOESNT DARE TO OPEN INTERNATIONAL BORDER AND THEN ATTACK KASHMIR IN CONVENTIONAL WAY AND WITH THE HELP OF LOCAL KASHMIRIES YOUTH KICK INDIANS OUT.IN WORST CASE IF INDIA OPTS TO OPEN INTERNATIONAL BORDER NUKE THEM ...THEY WILL NUKE YOU BACK AND IF BOTH COUNTRIES ARE TOTALLY DESTROYED THERE WOULD STILL BE A BILLION MUSLIMS IN WORLD BUT THERE WOULD BE ONLY A FEW THOUSAND HINDUS AND SIKHS SO IN THE END WE WILL BE THE WINNING ONE AT ANY COST AND KSA WILL TAKE OVER THIS WHOLE LAND TO BUILD A NEW MUSLIM NATION .......WHOSE FLAG WOULD BE

I GUESS THIS IS IT.....THERE IS NOTHING ELSE TO SAY WE NUKE YOU AND YOU NUKE US WHAT ELSE????NOW DONT START THAT INDIA IS BIG AND WILL BE LEFT AS WE HAVE 350 KM NUKE CRUISE MISSILE RA'AD ON OUR JF17 EVEN WE WILL MAKE SURE EVERY INCH OF INDIA IS GONE THOUGH THERE ARE MUSLIMS TOO BUT FOR A LARGER GOOD WE WILL SACRIFICE THE MUSLIMS OF BOTH THESE COUNTRIES AS EVEN THEN MORE HINDUS AND SKIHS WOULD KILLED SO WORLD WILL BE MORE CLEANER AND ALSO LATER ON ONLY MUSLIMS WILL BE THERE IN THE WHOLE SUBCONTINENT SO WE WILL BE PLEASED IN AFTER LIFE

How does one respond to a post like this. Sure hope a Mullah doesn't take over your nukes one day.