Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

[SQ8]

Some people find it a bad omen(Pakistanis) and others a good celebration(Indians) that somehow the Pakistani Army and its leadership is under fire. But what they all ignore, and especially the detractors who are somehow laughing with glee at such "revelations"(regardless of the reports of our troops unmatched valor) is that this incites the need for removal of all remaining unprofessional attitudes within the military.
That means you will no longer be dealing with a military that is prone to stupid mistakes.. but rather that no longer has loose nuts and bolts. A deadlier and more effective fighting machine..
If I were the enemy, Id prefer loose cannons and miscalculating ******** heading my foe rather than people who have a much higher ability to take the right and most effective decision.

 

[Contrarian]

Some people find it a bad omen(Pakistanis) and others a good celebration(Indians) that somehow the Pakistani Army and its leadership is under fire. But what they all ignore, and especially the detractors who are somehow laughing with glee at such "revelations"(regardless of the reports of our troops unmatched valor) is that this incites the need for removal of all remaining unprofessional attitudes within the military.
That means you will no longer be dealing with a military that is prone to stupid mistakes.. but rather that no longer has loose nuts and bolts. A deadlier and more effective fighting machine..
If I were the enemy, Id prefer loose cannons and miscalculating ******** heading my foe rather than people who have a much higher ability to take the right and most effective decision.

You are quite wrong in this. If the leaders produced by PA become more professional in their outlook and are held to much greater accountability than they currently are...most of such operations will not take place.

Had kargil not happened the peace process would have continued and today have yielded tangible results that includes a better Pakistani economy.

India has over a good period of time put in enough money in its military to make sure Pakistans military can initiate no ops against India...and India is all about trade and money now. There is always a national outlook of a nation..indias is towards the economy. A responsible Pakistani military only supports this Indian obsession.

 

[Jango]

You are quite wrong in this. If the leaders produced by PA become more professional in their outlook and are held to much greater accountability than they currently are...most of such operations will not take place.

Or if an operation was to be held, then it would be done with much better analysis of the whole situation and after a brainstorming session, not an overnight brainwave of 4 people, hence possibly succeeding.

Had kargil not happened the peace process would have continued and today have yielded tangible results that includes a better Pakistani economy.

Peace process did not stop because of only Kargil. There are many more hurdles in the way. Some anti-state elements and then parliament attacks, Samjhota express, Mumbai attacks and so on.

Secondly, Pakistan's economy is not in the current state completely because of Indian military threat. WoT and other malpractices in our country contribute to that, Indian threat is a small factor.

India has over a good period of time put in enough money in its military to make sure Pakistans military can initiate no ops against India...and India is all about trade and money now. There is always a national outlook of a nation..indias is towards the economy. A responsible Pakistani military only supports this Indian obsession.

There will still be small scale skirmishes and ops in the future until this kind of attitude remains from both countries and Kashmir issue among others is not resolved.

 

[Contrarian]

Or if an operation was to be held, then it would be done with much better analysis of the whole situation and after a brainstorming session, not an overnight brainwave of 4 people, hence possibly succeeding.



Peace process did not stop because of only Kargil. There are many more hurdles in the way. Some anti-state elements and then parliament attacks, Samjhota express, Mumbai attacks and so on.

Secondly, Pakistan's economy is not in the current state completely because of Indian military threat. WoT and other malpractices in our country contribute to that, Indian threat is a small factor.



There will still be small scale skirmishes and ops in the future until this kind of attitude remains from both countries and Kashmir issue among others is not resolved.

Well operations would be better planned is good. That is never an issue..a fight with an enemy today the likes of India that has invested so much in military, diplomacy and economy is not going to end well for Pakistan in any scenario.

But the probability and propensity of Pakistan military to decide policy and take unaccountable actions and operations is much more valuable.

Kashmir is never going to be solved...yet Pakistani leaders have now started talking about putting it on back burner and let it be and whatnot. Pakistan and Pakistanis have got to learn that Kashmir is not separating from India...and there are significant voices coming from Pakistan in that direction for the first time in history.

 

[SQ8]

You are quite wrong in this. If the leaders produced by PA become more professional in their outlook and are held to much greater accountability than they currently are...most of such operations will not take place.

Had kargil not happened the peace process would have continued and today have yielded tangible results that includes a better Pakistani economy.

India has over a good period of time put in enough money in its military to make sure Pakistans military can initiate no ops against India...and India is all about trade and money now. There is always a national outlook of a nation..indias is towards the economy. A responsible Pakistani military only supports this Indian obsession.

Exactly.. SO am I wrong in my statement then?
A responsible Pakistani military , that is then able to reign in terror much better.. a more stable Pakistan...ipso facto.. better military equipment as well.
Hence even if the usual banter resumes in terms of skirmishes and the lot.. the Indian military will be dealing with people who know their job much better than before.
Accusations that would fly earlier may not hold any ground then.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

You are quite wrong in this. If the leaders produced by PA become more professional in their outlook and are held to much greater accountability than they currently are...most of such operations will not take place.

Had kargil not happened the peace process would have continued and today have yielded tangible results that includes a better Pakistani economy.
.

easy now, no matter how likable and noble your post but your army says it wont budge on its Siachin stance and even wants to turn run of kach and swamps between India and Pakistan in the south to yet another conflict zone.

dont be allergic to the mention of Kashmir, its the main cause of dispute, if not the only one there has to be a closure to it not at the cost of the people of Kashmir on either side of the LoC.
you make it sound very simple yet .. up comes one allegation or story and Indians in the west and the east demand beheading and hanging of Pakistani artists and sportsmen that are visiting India.

I am not liking the situation one bit and I am not against these customary goodwill gestures but they remain so futile that one incident brings the entire Indian nation on the war footing and all the Aman Bhasha people are bullied into a corner.

 

[KRAIT]

@Irfan Baloch Sir, is sending and supporting terrorist outfits like LeT etc. a better approach to solve Kashmir Issue.

 

[MilSpec]

easy now, no matter how likable and noble your post but your army says it wont budge on its Siachin stance and even wants to turn run of kach and swamps between India and Pakistan in the south to yet another conflict zone.

dont be allergic to the mention of Kashmir, its the main cause of dispute, if not the only one there has to be a closure to it not at the cost of the people of Kashmir on either side of the LoC.
you make it sound very simple yet .. up comes one allegation or story and Indians in the west and the east demand beheading and hanging of Pakistani artists and sportsmen that are visiting India.

I am not liking the situation one bit and I am not against these customary goodwill gestures but they remain so futile that one incident brings the entire Indian nation on the war footing and all the Aman Bhasha people are bullied into a corner.

Irfan sir,

Apart from all of this dust that has been raised of kargil files, what is your opinion on the tactical part of the conflict.

I have often heard musharraf saheb claiming that it was a tactical sucess, and entire Indian arty was engaged in kashmir, hence there was no chance of a repeat of 65, IA was in no position to open up any other "morcha".

Whereas what i know is that around 340 howitzers were employed in kargil conflict out of which 215 Haubits FH77 were employed, rest were a mix of 105mm IFG's and M46 130mm IFG's. The approximate number of operational arty guns at that time were 2500 units, that still leaves roughly 1500 to 1800 units on pakistan border areas deployment.

Musharraf assessment based on engaging Indian army in kargil would not allow IA to open any other fronts seems doubtful to me.

please comment on the actual tactical part of conflict,

Also what in your opinion was the assessment of response by the pakistani side in your opinion,

regards

 

[Emmie]

@Irfan Baloch Sir, is sending and supporting terrorist outfits like LeT etc. a better approach to solve Kashmir Issue.

Not bad I think! It worked in 71!

 

[Paan Singh]

Some people find it a bad omen(Pakistanis) and others a good celebration(Indians) that somehow the Pakistani Army and its leadership is under fire. But what they all ignore, and especially the detractors who are somehow laughing with glee at such "revelations"(regardless of the reports of our troops unmatched valor) is that this incites the need for removal of all remaining unprofessional attitudes within the military.
That means you will no longer be dealing with a military that is prone to stupid mistakes.. but rather that no longer has loose nuts and bolts. A deadlier and more effective fighting machine..
If I were the enemy, Id prefer loose cannons and miscalculating ******** heading my foe rather than people who have a much higher ability to take the right and most effective decision.

i think your military will remain as loose cannon.Few qns were raised in debate that did u learn anything since 65 war which was started by you by same way?? i.e sending infiltrators.

answer is nothing!!!!!!!!

you dint learn anything in 35 years and there are few retired officers who says that it can be repeated again,so you will always remain as loose cannon.

You have left choices over to india now .

 

[KRAIT]

Not bad I think! It worked in 71!

Actually East Pakistan was thousands Miles away from West. Also, the capability dfference wasn't that large and there was no technology like we have now.

1. Kashmir is connected to India via land route. East Pakistan was not connected to West.

2. There are around 70,000 troops in J&K. With latest weaponry which Mujaheedins don't have.

3. Pakistan don't have rest of the world's backing especially due to number of terrorists in Pakistan. India, on the other hand is now considered as more responsible state. Post 9/11, West understood about Terrorism is a major threat. 26/11 helped us very much.

4. Technological Superiority- There are Spy Satellites watching over Border region. India has a massive edge over Pakistan in this regard.

5. Any incursion in borders will make India send more support to Proxies against Pakistan. Tit for Tat response.

6. Pakistan's economy can't handle any limited war. India can. India has better economic shock absorbers.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Irfan Baloch Sir, is sending and supporting terrorist outfits like LeT etc. a better approach to solve Kashmir Issue.

you know my answer already
its as bad as supporting the insurgents in east Pakistan and Balochistan

lets not look at the issue with one dimension only. your blackops are also spending every single Indian rupee very well according to their mission statement.
what I am pointing at is that our peace efforts fizzle out so easily that I am sure people doing all the effort on either side think why did they even bother,

remember Berlin wall? until it was broken and the iron curtain was history, the walls of Berlin wall were littered with bullet holes and blood of the Germans trying to flee. just like North and South Korea it was a potential flash point of an all out WW3

the lucky b@stards sorted their differences right after the demise of the Soviets and had the most peaceful reunification one can only envy.

 

[Saleem]

@Irfan Baloch Sir, is sending and supporting terrorist outfits like LeT etc. a better approach to solve Kashmir Issue.

it is india that has always been doing this east pakistan, baluChistan, karachi, kashmir [SOG].....

 

[Albatross]

Well operations would be better planned is good. That is never an issue..a fight with an enemy today the likes of India that has invested so much in military, diplomacy and economy is not going to end well for Pakistan in any scenario.

But the probability and propensity of Pakistan military to decide policy and take unaccountable actions and operations is much more valuable.

Kashmir is never going to be solved...yet Pakistani leaders have now started talking about putting it on back burner and let it be and whatnot. Pakistan and Pakistanis have got to learn that Kashmir is not separating from India...and there are significant voices coming from Pakistan in that direction for the first time in history.

you indeed have a logic in your post which might have attraced people around you especially the economic progress of pakistan which she would have gained had all been cozy with india.
But lets see the other side of picture and its upto you to see how much logic it held.
1)The moral and just ground.India and Pak were divided on the lines of religion and kashmir was and still is 90% muslims populated so its unification with india was both morally and justly wrong.
2) You peole claim there are only 70 thousand troops though in reality the no is around 5-6 lacs suppressing kashmiries and if I am wrong why dont you Just hold a plebiscite in presence of neutral observers and show the world how much kashmiries loves you and finish this nuasance for once and all
3) The economic front as you mentioned there is no doubt Pakistan lost a lot due to his issues with india and also due to india's proxies inside pakistan and india's diplomatic efforts to damage pakistan's causes whenever and whereever possible but have you guys ever calculated the losses india incurred because of this kashmir? If Pakistan had no issue with kashmir india would have got an oil and gas pipline from iran two decades ago giving india all the energy she so desperately needs to compete china.Just imagine where india would have been today if she had rail and road connections with Iran,russia,all central asian states,iraq till turker the volume of your exports must be manifold what you have now and india owing to his large population must have been much ahead of china.
So india has lost a lot more than Pakistan owing to this conflict

Pakistan has passed it hardest times and this first democratical trasnsition would be a witness that we are going in the right direction.If we can accomodate all this inidan propaganda and backbiting these six decades we have no issue dealing that now when are are becoming more stronger and 2014 isnt that far now when indian involvemnet in af'tan where from shez handling her proxies in Pak is gonna come to an abrupt end but on the other hand india would never be able to what she should be owing to her size just coz of kashmir.
And let me ask you what kashmir is giving you except some ego boost if its about water then all of that water is coming from tibet and can be stopped by china anytime if they want to ...On the other hand solving kashmir can give your economy an unbelievable boost.

I am not asking you to give us kashmir just ask them what they want if they want to be independent we have no issue or which is very unlikely if they want to be with india we again have no issue but just ask them.what india is afraid of?
This was just the other side of picture which unfortunately most of emotional inidans fail to see..

 

[Contrarian]

easy now, no matter how likable and noble your post but your army says it wont budge on its Siachin stance and even wants to turn run of kach and swamps between India and Pakistan in the south to yet another conflict zone.

dont be allergic to the mention of Kashmir, its the main cause of dispute, if not the only one there has to be a closure to it not at the cost of the people of Kashmir on either side of the LoC.
you make it sound very simple yet .. up comes one allegation or story and Indians in the west and the east demand beheading and hanging of Pakistani artists and sportsmen that are visiting India.

I am not liking the situation one bit and I am not against these customary goodwill gestures but they remain so futile that one incident brings the entire Indian nation on the war footing and all the Aman Bhasha people are bullied into a corner.

Why would the Indian army want to budge from siachen and anywhere else when kargil stands as such a clear example. You never know when pakistani army feels it need to focus attention away from other issues or prop itself up..it might launch another incursion and keep denying it. Why would Indian army ever agree to giving up territory it has won in a race and battled with PA to keep ?

Good will and friendship does not mean giving up what they have won.that is a misplaced notion.same for Kashmir.

Whatever be the causes and reason for partition the bottom line is that today India does not accept any activity that the constitution of India does not allow. Any solution has to be within the ambit of the constitution of India and the Indian army will be used to this end. The sooner Pakistanis start understanding this stark reality the better things will be, else the same hostilities can continue..India has endured and come out tops even when the nation was near bankruptcy..today it is a far cry from that.