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Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

Its not a sweeping statement. What PA is doing now, targeting terrorists, they could have done when they were running from Afghanistan. Now they have extended their depth in Pakistan. I have made the most practical post.

Not only security, this Polio epidemic and people ignorant of Iodine salt will show its effect after 5 to 10 years. It will create a whole new generation of deformed children which will be more than a burden on society. Its the long lasting effect of terrorism.
Believe me, you can't see it because its a slow process and a non-linear one. It will jump so high in such a less time that it would be very hard to control then and will require hell lot of resources.

Its the biggest blunder done by Pakistani Army by allowing these extremists for such a long time. This concept of Good Taliban will hurt Pakistan.

Look at today's bomb blast resulting in death of 22 Shias. No one is discussing it on any thread. I haven't posted it as I am not allowed. Its just feeding the simmering anger. God forbid if they took weapons to protect themselves.

For once, try to see what will be the result of insufficient action of Pakistani Army and Civilian govt., both current and long term effects.


Sir I am not targeting PA just for sake of it. I agree India made huge mistake by supporting LTTE.

And I am more worried about my country because theremay be huge surge of terrorists attack in India too. I don't want 1990s era.


I wish more people think like you but your Military and secret service insists to keep the same confrontational mentality and reasons it because Pak army is occupied with a perpetual fight with a monster that has developed over time. dont forget that India as almost same or more Muslim population and if this madness is not stemmed by Pak army then the devastation will be 5 fold.

you might advocate eradicating the entire muslim population in the subcontinent but even that wont help because this shady group will morph into nonMuslim guise and wait to strike they would go as far as not even doing what Jews and Muslims do (you know what I am saying) in sawat we have found dead terrorists who didnt have that essential thing done which is a must for a Muslim.


many civilians and generals in Pakistan will have a critical view of Pakistan army for the times to come but lets sit back and think why Indo Pak border is one of the highest militarized borders in the world? because we have unresolved issues and each of us strikes when it finds a chance. just look at those alleged beheading fiasco, just shows that how futire all our peace efforts (and exchange of sports and arts ) are.


to tell you the truth I am equally worried for India as well because this global jihadist phenomenon is a very adaptive, aggressive and evil genius it has all the time in the world to wait and wait and lurk and wait to strike and until it does so it remains dormant and as harmless as it can be. our real enemy are not those smelly bearded oafs with bloodshot eyes.

but real dangerous ones are those highly educated apparently westernized, rich and successful people who would look the part of a modern capitalistic world but deep inside they are as sick and evil as the undercover Nazis can be and see everyone who is not part of them as a fair game. (Faisal Shazad for example the failed bomber)
 
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@Irfan Baloch This is the biggest worry I have. Recently what has happened in India my some Muslims and some Hindus, I am getting more worried.

The reason I want eradication of extremism in Pakistan is because now its transferring from Afghanistan to Pakistan and may find its roots in India.

That's why I want more education and financial security of Muslim population. Only positive thing is that there is a significant majority of Muslims who are against these fringe Muslim population in India. I just fear that this favorable majority don't get suppressed by these fringe community.

Same is with Hindu extremists. I simply want religion out of politics in India. Its among the basic priority I want along with a relatively more honest and efficient government.

I don't expect ideal solutions. They don't come in fruition and are good on paper. I believe in practical solution. A step by step improvement.

I like Indian retired Army official who said that let the Kargil matter be put aside. Forget it. Move to peace. Move to regional stability. But I was dejected when one Pak retired official said first talk of Kashmir. There are similar type of people in India too.


People in India and Pakistan don't want to fight over Kashmir anymore. But its few elements in both countries that uses it for personal gains.


I am happy with status quo situation in Kashmir. I worry more about 450 million poor people. I worry more about how can in one of the fastest developing economy, people die of hunger, farmers commit suicides.

I don't like war rhetoric. If we can't have good relation with Pakistan then we shouldn't go to war either.

Just keep trade. Soon people will realize that cooperating in trade can help both country, then we can easily convince people to work towards other field. This will also reduce the voice of war mongers.
 
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Pervez Musharraf 'crossed LoC before Kargil war'; V K Singh praises ex-Pak army chief's 'courage' - The Times of India


ISLAMABAD/NEW DELHI: Weeks before hostilities erupted between Indian and Pakistani troops in the Kargil sector in 1999, Gen Pervez Musharraf crossed the Line of Control in a helicopter and spent a night at a location 11 km inside Indian territory, a former aide to the military ruler has said.

Col (retired) Ashfaq Hussain, who was a senior officer in the Pakistan Army's media arm, said Musharraf flew across the LoC on March 28, 1999 and travelled 11 km into the Indian side.

Musharraf, who was accompanied by Brig Masood Aslam, then commander of 80 Brigade, spent the night at a spot called Zikria Mustaqar, where Pakistani troops commanded by Col Amjad Shabbir were present.

Musharraf, who was then army chief, returned the next day. Hussain first made the revelation in his book 'Witness to Blunder: Kargil Story Unfolds', which was published in late 2008.

He repeated the assertion last night on a television talk show on the Kargil episode in the wake of Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz's assertion that the intrusions by Pakistani troops were planned by a group of four generals led by Musharraf.

He further said Pakistani troops first intruded into the Indian side of the LoC on December 18, 1998, when Captains Nadeem and Ali and Havaldar Lalik Jan were sent on a reconnaissance mission.

"They were never told about the aims and objectives of their mission. Even for a recce, they were not provided any briefing or objectives," he said.

Shortly after this, several units were told to cross the LoC and occupy positions on the Indian side. Several units competed with each other to go further into the Indian side.

The intrusions were spotted by a shepherd who informed Indian troops, he said.

Like the initial reconnaissance mission, there were no aims or objectives set out for the entire Kargil operation, which was masterminded by Maj Gen Javed Hassan, then chief of the Force Command Northern Areas, Hussain said.

Hassan drew up the plan to occupy Indian positions along the LoC and convinced then Rawalpindi Corps Commander Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmad, then Chief of General Staff Lt Gen Mohammad Aziz and Musharraf to back the venture, Hussain said.

Hostilities between Indian and Pakistani troops broke out in early May, over a month after Musharraf crossed the LoC and spent a night on the Indian side.

Besides troops from the Northern Light Infantry, soldiers from 31 Azad Kashmir Regiment, 24 Sindh Regiment, Frontier Force Regiment and artillery units participated in the Kargil operation, Hussain said.

Hussain, who based his book on interviews with officers who participated in the fighting in Kargil, dismissed Musharraf's claim that the operation was a success.

"It was a success only till Pakistani forces came face to face with the enemy. In winter, both sides abandoned their positions under a recognised procedure. Our troops crossed the LoC at a time when the enemy was not present. Our troops were not even informed why they were being sent across the LoC," he said.

"I asked commanding officers and brigade commanders about the aims and objectives of the operation but none of them had answer," he added.

The generals who planned the operation had believed that the Indian side would not detect the intrusions till late May or early June 1999 but their surmise proved to be wrong, Hussain said.

Hussain also dismissed Musharraf's recent assertion that Pakistan had lost only 270 soldiers during the Kargil conflict.

"According to my research, there were over 1,000 casualties on the Pakistani side. The official data (on casualties) was hidden and cannot be accessed," Hussain said.

Referring to the main opposition PML-N's demand for a judicial commission to probe the Kargil conflict in the wake of Lt Gen (retd.) Aziz's revelations, Hussain said any such inquiry panel should seek all reports on the fighting from the army's General Headquarters so that the true figures for casualties could be made public.

Though Aziz has said that information he had gathered suggested that then premier Nawaz Sharif was aware of the Kargil operation, Hussain contended that Sharif only learnt of the intrusions at an army briefing in Rawalpindi on May 17, 1999.

V K Singh praises Musharraf's 'courage'

Former Pakistan military ruler Gen Pervez Musharraf on Friday received praise for coming deep into Indian territory in Kargil in 1999 from former Army chief Gen V K Singh, who said it showed the "courage" of a military commander.

Singh, who headed the Indian Army from 2010 to 2012, said there were "mistakes" on the Indian side that allowed Pakistani troops to cross over into Indian territory and let Musharraf go back safely.

"As far as General Musharraf is concerned, I would like to put it in two ways. One, as a military commander, I would commend Gen Musharraf for coming 11 km (inside Indian territory) to stay with his troops for a night. It is the courage of a military commander that he came so far knowing that there was danger," Singh told reporters here.

"Second, what was happening on our side you all know and facts are before you. Why did we allow him to go? Why did we allow them to enter? I would only say that there were some mistakes, which need to be rectified," he said.

Singh was commenting on the revelation by a senior retired officer of Pakistan Army that Musharraf had stayed for a night inside Indian territory with his troops before the three-month conflict erupted in Kargil in 1999. The former Army chief said the revelation was just a confirmation that Pakistan had started the Kargil war. "What happened in 1999, we including the Indian Army know that Pakistan Army had started the Kargil war. There is nothing new in it," Singh said.

He said Pakistan had been telling lies and "now only its officials are confirming our stand.


Another retired General
 
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@Capt.Popeye

Very astute observations. You are right, the idea was never converted into a plan and that is why it ended up as a failure. Sure we gained a couple of peaks and some land, but the cost was certainly not worth it. We were left isolated both politically and economically.The way our High Command abandoned our NLI boys was absolutely disgusting, Gen Karamat would have never let this happen. For the Kargil Skirmish, i will use an old proverb. Go Big or Go Home.

Either PA should have gone all out or not go at all. PA should have been prepared to counter any major deployments from the Indian side. The High Command gravely miscalculated the reaction of the IA. If history was something to go by with, the Indians were not going to stand still and they were going to mobilize full as shown in the past. PA High Command was left stunned when they learned that Indians were rushing an entire freaking Corps to take out 2000 men. This was a major miscalculation on part of PA, i will give them a pass regarding the precision strikes as there was no such precedent of using Air Power but the reaction of IA should have been expected. Overall, almost 1000 brave Pakistani men sacrificed their lives for the glory of 3 selfish Generals. NLI has nothing to be ashamed off, they fought like warriors and gave a damn good account off themselves. Even the IA Officers praised the bravery of NLI soldiers.
 
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@Capt.Popeye
Either PA should have gone all out or not go at all. PA should have been prepared to counter any major deployments from the Indian side. The High Command gravely miscalculated the reaction of the IA. If history was something to go by with, the Indians were not going to stand still and they were going to mobilize full as shown in the past. PA High Command was left stunned when they learned that Indians were rushing an entire freaking Corps to take out 2000 men. This was a major miscalculation on part of PA, i will give them a pass regarding the precision strikes as there was no such precedent of using Air Power but the reaction of IA should have been expected. Overall, almost 1000 brave Pakistani men sacrificed their lives for the glory of 3 selfish Generals. NLI has nothing to be ashamed off, they fought like warriors and gave a damn good account off themselves. Even the IA Officers praised the bravery of NLI soldiers.

There was a TV program yesterday with AVM Shahid latif and LtGen Talat Masood on Geo, they said the exact same thing, that our high command thought that the response of the Indians will only be limited along the LOC and Kashmir areas and Kargil etc. And it won't spill over to the International Border.

But the above is what we all know...the interesting part is that the two people also mentioned that our training regimens and the philosophy taught at Staff College and NDC etc are all flawed, in a sense that they do not make you aware of the enemy responses and properly equip you mentally.
 
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There was a TV program yesterday with AVM Shahid latif and LtGen Talat Masood on Geo, they said the exact same thing, that our high command thought that the response of the Indians will only be limited along the LOC and Kashmir areas and Kargil etc. And it won't spill over to the International Border.

But the above is what we all know...the interesting part is that the two people also mentioned that our training regimens and the philosophy taught at Staff College and NDC etc are all flawed, in a sense that they do not make you aware of the enemy responses and properly equip you mentally.

I could not disagree more with this part Sir. You would actually be surprised how tough and realistic the forecasting is by our boys during wargaming. NDC and Staff College are two institutions that i highly respect, not just a coincidence that we have some of the finest officers serving in PA right now. In Kargil the problem was that three powerful individuals overruled all the concerns shown by other parties. There were several senior officers whom questioned the strategy but were immediately rebuked and sidelined. Nothing wrong with our institutions, the only thing that went wrong was Musharraf superseding Lt Gen Ali Kuli Khan and Lt Gen Nawaz Khan.
 
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@Capt.Popeye

Very astute observations. You are right, the idea was never converted into a plan and that is why it ended up as a failure. Sure we gained a couple of peaks and some land, but the cost was certainly not worth it. We were left isolated both politically and economically.The way our High Command abandoned our NLI boys was absolutely disgusting, Gen Karamat would have never let this happen. For the Kargil Skirmish, i will use an old proverb. Go Big or Go Home.

Either PA should have gone all out or not go at all. PA should have been prepared to counter any major deployments from the Indian side. The High Command gravely miscalculated the reaction of the IA. If history was something to go by with, the Indians were not going to stand still and they were going to mobilize full as shown in the past. PA High Command was left stunned when they learned that Indians were rushing an entire freaking Corps to take out 2000 men. This was a major miscalculation on part of PA, i will give them a pass regarding the precision strikes as there was no such precedent of using Air Power but the reaction of IA should have been expected. Overall, almost 1000 brave Pakistani men sacrificed their lives for the glory of 3 selfish Generals. NLI has nothing to be ashamed off, they fought like warriors and gave a damn good account off themselves. Even the IA Officers praised the bravery of NLI soldiers.

@notorious_eagle;
Everything was wrong about this so-called plan. Starting from from what the plan was about to when it was done to the way it was carried out. Suffice it to say; over 1000 soldiers who fought bravely against near-hopeless odds were just expended and for what.....

As a person who did his time in uniform I find that both disturbing and shameful.
"Izzat-o-Iqbal" of the Paltan are not meaningless words! Soldiers can and will die for something meaningful. Not this......
 
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For the bold YES you are 200% rights thats why the Musharraf stand has more weight and should be followed in future too as you can not expose plans even to every Gen or official in service.

I don't see Musharraf being any different or credible compared to any other Generals either. If you go by the chronology of past events, only goes to show that Musharraf has contradicted his own statements many a time on various events. To say that his stand has more weight & should be followed, will only amount to following someone blindly knowing that the person leading you himself doesn't know where he is going.

The army has own mechanism of monitoring the conduct of the officials and know very well who to keep informed and looking at conduct of Gen Aziz it was good that he was kept out of the loop.

This maybe the case... but then again, there have been others who harbored similar sentiments when it comes to Kargil episode. There are not many voices coming out of the establishment, either political or military to support Musharraf's theory.
 
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I could not disagree more with this part Sir. You would actually be surprised how tough and realistic the forecasting is by our boys during wargaming. NDC and Staff College are two institutions that i highly respect, not just a coincidence that we have some of the finest officers serving in PA right now. In Kargil the problem was that three powerful individuals overruled all the concerns shown by other parties. There were several senior officers whom questioned the strategy but were immediately rebuked and sidelined. Nothing wrong with our institutions, the only thing that went wrong was Musharraf superseding Lt Gen Ali Kuli Khan and Lt Gen Nawaz Khan.

That was my first impression on this as well...but hearing this from two retired star officers, you have to give it some weight.

NDC and Staff College are regarded as some of the top institutions in the world...
 
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There was a TV program yesterday with AVM Shahid latif and LtGen Talat Masood on Geo, they said the exact same thing, that our high command thought that the response of the Indians will only be limited along the LOC and Kashmir areas and Kargil etc. And it won't spill over to the International Border.

But the above is what we all know...the interesting part is that the two people also mentioned that our training regimens and the philosophy taught at Staff College and NDC etc are all flawed, in a sense that they do not make you aware of the enemy responses and properly equip you mentally.

I find some events that took place after Kargil to be outstandingly absurd. Maj. Gen. Javed Hasan then Comdr. FCNA was elevated to the rank of Lt. Gen. after Kargil and even went on to head the NDC.
What can one say......
 
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Well this is a symptoms which affect all countries where fundos have occupied seats of power..they think divine victory is granted to them and do not think otherwise. Mush was an active Jamati fundo until he lost the war and got a handle of reality!

but he still comes on TV with that same face and blames everything on NS, even other commanders didnt know about this yet he claims he told NS about it and a successful operation was sabotaged by NS.
 
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Well...we all know whom to thank for that, the same guy who got ousted from PM house!!!

Was he the only one to be ejected? If memory serves right; there is Iskander Mirza and ZA Bhutto who were precedents?
Any others to add to the list?
Why do the beneficiaries turn on their benefactors? :D
 
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