Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

[notorious_eagle]

Mate, just asked a question.. No need to fly off the handle.. You need to remember that other people you mention did not fall under Musharraf's command.. Where as Aziz did..

And about totalitarian regime, well, there's got to be a reason why not a single Pakistani govt in last 65 years has completed its term...

Yes there is a reason for that, incompetence and corruption. The reason why these so called democractically elected governments have failed to complete their tenure is because of their mis governance, corruption, incompetence, nepotism etc. The current government which is about to complete her full term is an example right in-front of you. The records of corruption have been broken all the way across the board. The reason why people welcomed Musharraf's coup was because the country was broke, corruption was at an all time high while Mr. Sharif was busy playing politics. If you really want to educate yourself regarding Pakistani affairs, stop thinking from an Indian prism infront of your eyes and start thinking as a neutral, impartial and rational actor. Trust me, you will learn a lot in your life. If Pakistan was indeed a totalitarian state, i wouldn't be here conversing with you and Lt Gen Aziz's statement would never have been published.

 

[Paan Singh]

the fight happened in the disputed land and its disputed due to unresolved conflict we have with India. why not an inquiry be demanded that why Indian came into Siachin to turn it into a needless war? I am aware of "pehlay Aaap Pelay Aap" argument on who came first or if India did then why it did so but that just explains why such fights will continue to happen until we stop denying our self from reality that a peaceful and stable relations with India are only possible once we settle our conflicts and close the chapter.

Siachin is not demarcated like other parts of LOC.Pakistanis claim it coz routes only goes through pakistan while india have to air lift same.India objected many times to pakistan about patrols sent by pakistan on siachin.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The accounts of Hon Air Cmdr Tufail are indeed very accurate. I would expect nothing short of a man as brilliant as him.

Kargil was indeed an epic clusterfu**, don't get me wrong it was a brilliant tactical plan but an utter strategic failure. The High Command failed to take into account the response of the enemy, they never could have imagined IA would respond so quickly and with such decisive force. The Army failed to calculate the precision strikes the IAF would be able to carry out from high altitudes and they could never have imagined that IA would send a Corps to evict them.

@notorious_eagle,
My views on that Plan(?):

The ‘Idea’ behind Kargil’s “Operation Badr” was brilliant in its conception and audacious in its intent. The problem however was that it did not encompass much more than that ‘kernel of an idea’ so that it could be grown in to a ‘ripe fruit of a well-thought out and thought-through Plan’ of action.
An ‘Idea’, however great it may be; cannot be a synonym for a ‘Plan’ nor can it be passed off as a Plan. To don the mantle of a Plan, thought and reasoning has to be added around the ‘Idea’. All possible possibilities and contingencies have to be thought of and thought through to give a Plan any reasonable chance of success. It is vital to weigh the pros and cons of a military offensive in terms of understanding the possible ramifications and enemy reactions before embarking on a military Operation. All that can be considered to be “environment” (the expression used by Brig.Kadir).

For instance, the plan paid little attention to the “environment”. The “environment” included (but was not limited to) the possibility that the response from India could even be escalatory in nature, which in the event; it actually was!
That was something that the planners of Operation Badr had not considered with any seriousness and finally as demonstrated by subsequent events; were simply even unable to cope with!
Did the planners smugly believe that such a response was not even likely? It seems so.
Contingencies had little (if any) part of their attention while drawing up the plan.

And Brig. Kadir could just blandly say, as he did: “While it is useless to speculate on whether it could in fact have succeeded, theoretically the plan was faultless, the initial execution, tactically brilliant. The only flaw was that it had not catered for the “environment”.

How “good” is a Plan that has eventual failure intrinsically built into it?
It is amazing that the 4 architects of the plan (who had been instructors in various Military Institutions in their respective service careers) had overlooked such finer points.

What compounded the flaws in Op.Badr was that it seems not even to have been explained in any detail to the Political Leadership in Pakistan. Because the consequences of any Military action directed towards a neighbouring country must have a diplomatic ‘fall-out’ which of necessity would have to be dealt with by the Political Leadership. In this instance, the Political Leadership (and consequently the Pakistani Diplomatic Establishment) were grossly unprepared.

About how the Diplomatic Establishment of Pakistan was kept in the dark about Kargil; Ambassador Zafar Hilaly (Pakistani FO) had this to say in “Comment-Military Dictation on Foreign Policy”:
“Kargil, of course, was yet another disaster over which the military consulted no one, not even its own, what to speak of the FO. And, instead of being court-martialled for his folly, Musharraf was given a long lease of life in office followed by an honourable send-off.”

Whatever may be the truth, the fact is that once the plan was set rolling and the dismal results came in eventually (and somewhat inevitably) there was a huge disconnect between the Political leadership and the Military leadership about the campaign and its conclusion, and in the end; both Political and Military leadership in Pakistan were simply reduced to a state of dysfunction- something that just added to the chances of a disastrous conclusion of the plan!

In conclusion; that great idea just could not be given the respectable moniker of "Plan". It was simply a "half-baked recipe for Disaster".

n.b. pardon the mixed metaphor.

 

[IFB]

@Cpt popoye very good post on kargil....this is the first time on pdf i read such a big article from start to finish lol.

 

[Paan Singh]

Kargil was indeed an epic clusterfu**, don't get me wrong it was a brilliant tactical plan but an utter strategic failure. The High Command failed to take into account the response of the enemy, they never could have imagined IA would respond so quickly and with such decisive force. The Army failed to calculate the precision strikes the IAF would be able to carry out from high altitudes and they could never have imagined that IA would send a Corps to evict them.

kindly explain how it was good tactical plan?

it was only good until unless indian forces were not there.

1)Gen Javed hassan was asked what are your objectives? He dint have answer.(He was the master planner)

2)Even your NLI soldiers were asked that just go n sit there ..

3)None of your general thought about the consequences and as per javed hassan (Yeh to baniye hai,yeh ky ladenge )

So this is the thinking with which you are going to get the win

and it was brilliant operation till the time when indian forces were not involved.

 

[Alpha1]

@Pfpilot i fail to cocede on your 'liberal' view tha generals are DEVILS AND DEMONS!!
. Humans make mistakes!
.
.
Our Generals are at least a 1000 times better than our beaurocrats!
.
.
I suspect the integrity of beaurocrats and Leadership of PDF more than that of army
.
@Pfpilot i fail to cocede on your 'liberal' view tha generals are DEVILS AND DEMONS!!
. Humans make mistakes!
.
.
Our Generals are at least a 1000 times better than our beaurocrats!
.
.
I suspect the integrity of beaurocrats and Leadership of PDF more than that of army
.

 

[Paan Singh]

and mushy said that he did coup coz nawaj was giving kashmir to india but when mushy was president,he did same .
He continued with same kashmir policy.

 

[karan.1970]

Kargil was Mushy's response to Siachen.. Tried to copy India's move.. but forgot the saying

"Kavva Chala hans ki chaal.. Apni bhi bhool gaya "

 

[Paan Singh]

Kargil was Mushy's response to Siachen.. Tried to copy India's move.. but forgot the saying

"Kavva Chala hans ki chaal.. Apni bhi bhool gaya "

AS per mushy,

1)They will occupy peaks and negotiate with india on siachin + kashmir

2) Indian navy blocked their oil supplies and they were left with 3-4 days oil supply and they were thinking to put india down.

3)i never understood how it was tactically better,leave strategically

 

[Alpha1]

To All LIBERAL FASCIST an @Pfpilot {although i dont know if he is one}
Military least corrupt institution: TIP | The Nation

 

[KRAIT]

Army has destroyed Pakistan not more but not less than Democratic govt.

Radicalization, support to domestic terrorist groups like LeT, JeM, HM etc, to Taliban etc, which have become the reason for so much destruction of life and property along with bad image of Pakistan.

Politicians may be corrupt but Security situation affects the Economy much more than Corruption. Look at any nation.

If there is no major FDI or development in a region due to Security concerns, where is the scope of corruption.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Yes there is a reason for that, incompetence and corruption. The reason why these so called democractically elected governments have failed to complete their tenure is because of their mis governance, corruption, incompetence, nepotism etc. The current government which is about to complete her full term is an example right in-front of you. The records of corruption have been broken all the way across the board. The reason why people welcomed Musharraf's coup was because the country was broke, corruption was at an all time high while Mr. Sharif was busy playing politics. If you really want to educate yourself regarding Pakistani affairs, stop thinking from an Indian prism infront of your eyes and start thinking as a neutral, impartial and rational actor. Trust me, you will learn a lot in your life. If Pakistan was indeed a totalitarian state, i wouldn't be here conversing with you and Lt Gen Aziz's statement would never have been published.

@notorious_eagle; I for one do not consider Pakistan to be a totalitarian state. It is simply an Oligarchy, sometimes a civilian Oligarchy and sometimes a Military Oligarchy (bordering on Autocracy) with some short-lived punctuations of Democracy. That is how it has been over 6 decades.

Unfotunately (for Pakistan and its awaam) Mr. Jinnah's vision of a State and its Government got jettisonned soon after his demise and in my view has never returned. Except paradoxically; it seemed that would happen when ironically an Army General Yahya Khan held elections (out of wisdom or incompetence?).

It is encouraging that Lt Gen Aziz's account is being published (as others are going to be); not because it gives me (an Indian) some talking points; but because it presents Pakistan and its People an opportunity to again introspect on the state of affairs. Every Nation needs to that periodically (including my own, if I may add); the stock-taking can only lead to improvement. OTOH, any effort to sweep matters under the carpet (e.g. Hamoodur Commission Report) will just lead to the increasing probability of recurrent disasters. Op Gibraltar (1965) sees its echoes in Op Badr (1999).

Just going by some reactions on this thread about the righteousness of Lt Gen Aziz (as if soldiers have to be righteous like saints!) does not show 'positive portents'.

 

[MilSpec]

Lieutenant General Ali Kuli Khan Khattak accuses Pervez Musharraf of destruction of pakistan

Lt. General Tariq Pervez accuses Mushharaf of Deception

Lieutenant-General Jamshed Gulzar Kiani heavily criticizes Musharrafs policies

General Mirza Aslam Beg was disillusioned by Musharraf

I guess all of em were wrong

 

[karan.1970]

Lieutenant General Ali Kuli Khan Khattak accuses Pervez Musharraf of destruction of pakistan

Lt. General Tariq Pervez accuses Mushharaf of Deception

Lieutenant-General Jamshed Gulzar Kiani heavily criticizes Musharrafs policies

General Mirza Aslam Beg was disillusioned by Musharraf

I guess all of em were wrong

How can Musharraf be wrong.. He captured point 5353 at the cost of only 4000 pakistani soldiers

 

[MilSpec]

How can Musharraf be wrong.. He captured point 5353 at the cost of only 4000 pakistani soldiers

How dare you.... pakistan losses were so minuscule, their army didn't bother publishing it.... Thats how professionals do it...