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Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

Just one question?

Where was his honesty and candour, when he was commanding a freaking corps? It appears that his honesty and inner conviction has finally woken up long after he took off his wardi. He should have made a protest right than and there, instead of putting this issue now almost 10 years later.
 
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Well, since Musharraf announce his arrival before election.Every pro PMLn ex Army boy start propaganda campaign. But we should notice whole army is still backing him up. They still respect this Gen. He the one who brought economic changes in Pak.
 
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Well, since Musharraf announce his arrival before election.Every pro PMLn ex Army boy start propaganda campaign. But we should notice whole army is still backing him up. They still respect this Gen. He the one who brought economic changes in Pak.

Lt Gen Shahid Aziz is not considered Army ?

Just one question?

Where was his honesty and candour, when he was commanding a freaking corps? It appears that his honesty and inner conviction has finally woken up long after he took off his wardi. He should have made a protest right than and there, instead of putting this issue now almost 10 years later.

And risk suffering the same fate (or worse) as Nawaz Sharif ?
 
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Just one question?
Where was his honesty and candour, when he was commanding a freaking corps? It appears that his honesty and inner conviction has finally woken up long after he took off his wardi. He should have made a protest right than and there, instead of putting this issue now almost 10 years later.
Well shouldn't Musharraf had claim that it was Pakistani soldiers and accept all the bodies of the fallen soldiers.

Remember, its a Domino Effect. If one person tells the truth, other think they can also tell the truth. Courage in one makes other to do the same.

There may be political reasons behind it, but what do you want ? Doesn't Pakistani people deserve truth about Kargil ?

Why not ask for Commission and find out what are truths and lies ? Lets get over it.

May be if Pakistan elect Musharraf,they may be electing a Liar and Criminal Leader. Would you allow such person to be part of Govt. who is not trustworthy at all ?
 
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there should be an inquiry on 16 failed attacks on Sominat and the previous fights at Pani Pat done by Afghan forces .. why they were failed until the 17th.

by the way it will be best to merge this thread with a recent thread we had on the same subject.
 
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there should be an inquiry on 16 failed attacks on Sominat and the previous fights at Pani Pat done by Afghan forces .. why they were failed until the 17th.

by the way it will be best to merge this thread with a recent thread we had on the same subject.

With Lal Masjid being inquired upon by retired judges and all (who are suddenly thought of as angels!), I wouldn't be surprised to see Panipat being investigated!!
 
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Shameless effort,of the govt to break pakarmy,s thinking ability by the hands of a retd genrl who wants to be millionere?
Bt he forgot,he is bieng proven stupid, & a liar?

His lust to become famous & influential will make him very unfamous even in his own family?
Should be investigated by, MI & hiS contacts with planners of memo-gate should be de-linked?
With a medal of dishonnesty?


after the Kargil war Musharaf was much loved commander and thats the reason the army coup was not cooked by few generals but was hailed by the entire force. had Kargil been such a bad move as it stated by his rivals then well.. Siachin would have been in Indian control and there would have been new boundaries along the LoC from Jammu to Kashmir but that didnt happen.

I am not sure what this good general was doing during all these years? waiting for the right time to spill the "beans" just like CIA held that crafted video of Osama and aired it right at the point of Bush second term?

these threads tend to become troll fest and abusive so there is no point in explaining military planning, secrecy and need to know principles, people are talking out of their ares saysing that not entire military was taken into confidence (you a s ss wipes it wasnt party election or referendum )

I must mention a mission of British Navy boat group back in second world war. only handful of people knew about it and the target were the German merchant vessels moored at the ports of Occupied European countries, the people participating in the operation only found out about their destination when they were about to be launched from the submarines and the mission was over all failure all but one survived and came back but what the British didnt do was talk out of behind like some people are doing that. that attack shook the nerves of the Nazis although on paper it failed because only one ship was partially damaged and the commandos were captured or killed by Germans or drowned in the freezing sea.

this war lasted for a much longer time for PAF to react and become part of it remember it works on 7 minutes notice anyway and is in state of war, I am surprised that such facts are omitted on purpose by the PAF guys, it wasnt a one day or week war, instead of hiding in the corner they could have provided air support and strikes as well just like the Indian airforce did and lost 2 of its jets in the process no thanks to PAF but by our AAK AAK


the fight happened in the disputed land and its disputed due to unresolved conflict we have with India. why not an inquiry be demanded that why Indian came into Siachin to turn it into a needless war? I am aware of "pehlay Aaap Pelay Aap" argument on who came first or if India did then why it did so but that just explains why such fights will continue to happen until we stop denying our self from reality that a peaceful and stable relations with India are only possible once we settle our conflicts and close the chapter.
 
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BTW PMLn has distinguished itself by slowly becoming what ANP was during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. everything is fair to protect the crown of Raiwand. no, I am not predicting that the general will be joining PMLn soon but how people supporting PMLn are not wasting any moment to attack Pakistan army on electronic and print media
hey all is fair in love for power isnt it?
 
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after the Kargil was Musharaf was much loved commander and thats the reason the army coup was not cooked by few generals but was hailed by the entire force. had Kargil been such a bad move as it stated by his rivals then well.. Siachin would have been in Indian control and there would have been new boundaries along the LoC from Jammu to Kashmir but that didnt happen.

I am not sure what this good general was doing during all these years? waiting for the right time to spill the "beans" just like CIA held that crafted video of Osama and aired it right at the point of Bush second term?

these threads tend to become troll fest and abusive so there is no point in explaining military planning, secrecy and need to know principles, people are talking out of their ares saysing that not entire military was taken into confidence (you a s ss wipes it wasnt party election or referendum )

I must mention a mission of British Navy boat group back in second world war. only handful of people knew about it and the target were the German merchant vessels moored at the ports of Occupied European countries, the people participating in the operation only found out about their destination when they were about to be launched from the submarines and the mission was over all failure all but one survived and came back but what the British didnt do was talk out of behind like some people are doing that. that attack shook the nerves of the Nazis although on paper it failed because only one ship was partially damaged and the commandos were captured or killed by Germans or drowned in the freezing sea.

this war lasted for a much longer time for PAF to react and become part of it remember it works on 7 minutes notice anyway and is in state of war, I am surprised that such facts are omitted on purpose by the PAF guys, it wasnt a one day or week war, instead of hiding in the corner they could have provided air support and strikes as well just like the Indian airforce did and lost 2 of its jets in the process no thanks to PAF but by our AAK AAK


the fight happened in the disputed land and its disputed due to unresolved conflict we have with India. why not an inquiry be demanded that why Indian came into Siachin to turn it into a needless war? I am aware of "pehlay Aaap Pelay Aap" argument on who came first or if India did then why it did so but that just explains why such fights will continue to happen until we stop denying our self from reality that a peaceful and stable relations with India are only possible once we settle our conflicts and close the chapter.
what do you mean by "siachin would have been under Indian control ? it is under Indian control before and after kargil war.

and about paf not supporting army, because you army was claiming that there was no pak army in kargil but mujahidins.second reason is iaf was bvr capable and paf didn't have bvr capability(or very limited).

your example of British navy attack also is like comparing apples and oranges. one was just a secrect mission during a war on the other hand kargil was a unauthorized violation of LOC(large scale ),violation of seize fire, violation of bilateral agreements, even pak prime minister was not briefed properly, etc, that too during a time when Indian prime minister is visiting Pakistan for peace and cooperation.
 
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this war lasted for a much longer time for PAF to react and become part of it remember it works on 7 minutes notice anyway and is in state of war, I am surprised that such facts are omitted on purpose by the PAF guys, it wasnt a one day or week war, instead of hiding in the corner they could have provided air support and strikes as well just like the Indian airforce did and lost 2 of its jets in the process no thanks to PAF but by our AAK AAK

There are many reasons why the PAF could not and did not react to the IAF air-strikes and the pounding of the abandoned soldiers on the heights of Kargil.

A/Cmde (R) Kaiser Tufail explains:

“From the very beginning of Kargil operations, PAF was entrapped by a circumstantial absurdity: it was faced with the ludicrous predicament of having to provide air support to infiltrators already disowned by the Pakistan Army leadership! In any case, it took some effort to impress on the latter that crossing the LOC by fighters laden with bombs was not, by any stretch of imagination, akin to lobbing a few artillery shells to settle scores. There was no doubt in the minds of PAF Air Staff that the first cross-border attack (whether across LOC or the international border) would invite an immediate response from the IAF, possibly in the shape of a retaliatory strike against the home base of the intruding fighters, thus starting the first round. PAF’s intervention meant all-out war: this unmistakable conclusion was conveyed to the Prime Minister, Mr Nawaz Sharif, by the Air Chief in no equivocal terms.”

My comment:
So the PAF was trapped into a massive bind. It was damned if it did and equally damned if it did’nt! Certainly not an enviable situation for a professional Air Force to be in. But that was the “beauty” of the Plan(?) that set off Operation Badr!

In the mean-while the scope of the IAF air operations increased exponentially after they went through a short lull and reworked their operating methods. Now the intruders were facing a relentless air-attack while their own Air Force was nowhere to be seen in their support. Though in all fairness, when the PAF was beseeched by their PA comrades for air-support; it had set up a system of CAPs by their fighters in the air-space over POJK in the hope that some IAF aircraft may be lured over the LOC and engaged in combat. However this would have exposed the PAF aircraft to the hazards of BVR combat for which the PAF then had no capability, while the IAF had BVR capable aircraft. The results of such engagement could have been disastrous. Also the most capable aircraft in the PAF inventory, the F-16 was severely hit by the US imposed embargo after Pakistan’s Chagai Hills nuclear tests. After some period of flying these jets out of Skardu initially and later out of Minhas and Sargodha (since Skardu was vulnerable to IAF attack), the PAF was faced with the realisation after one week of flying random CAPs with the F-16s; that the limited War Reserves were being consumed and in Air Cmde.Kaiser Tufail’s words: “that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether.”

Kaiser Tufail goes on to explain the conclusion of whatever air ops that were undertaken by by PAF thus:: “It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.”

Tellingly Kaiser Tufail continues: “In sum, the PAF found it expedient not to worry too much about minor border violations and instead, conserve resources for the larger conflagration that was looming. All the same, it gave the enemy no pretext for retaliation in the face of any provocation, though this latter stance irked some quarters in the Army that were desperate to ‘equal the match’. Might it strike to some that PAF’s restraint in warding off a major conflagration may have been its paramount contribution to the Kargil conflict?”

My comment: This again points to the inherent incompleteness and inadequacy of the “so-called Plan” that Operation Badr was based on. Also the plan had not even adequately factored in the actual state of assets and reserves available to the PAF (simply because it blithely assumed that there was no need for Air-Power!).

Actually the PAF had seen through the "idiocy" of this plan(?) and earlier at the outset the CAS had vehemently opposed embarking on a plan(?) which no body knew where it could finally end and for which the PAF was scarcely equipped.
If we refer back to A/Cmde Kaiser Tufail's account of the briefing at 10 Corps HQ on 12th May on what was labelled the "Kashmir Contingency"

Kaiser Tufail describes that briefing thus: “Air Cdre Abid Rao, Air Cdre Saleem Nawaz and myself were directed by the DCAS (Ops) to attend a briefing on the ‘latest situation in Kashmir’ at HQ 10 Corps. We were welcomed by the Chief of Staff (COS) of the Corps, who led us to the briefing room. Shortly thereafter, the Corps Commander, Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmad entered, cutting an impressive figure clad in a bush-coat and his trademark camouflage scarf. After exchanging pleasantries, the COS started with the map orientation briefing. Thereafter, Lt Gen Mehmud took over and broke the news that a limited operation had started two days earlier. It was nothing more than a ‘protective manoeuvre’, he explained, and was meant to foreclose any further mischief by the enemy, who had been a nuisance in the Neelum Valley, specially on the road on our side of the Line of Control (LOC). He then elaborated that a few vacant Indian posts had been occupied on peaks across the LOC, overlooking the Dras-Kargil Road. These would, in effect, serve the purpose of Airborne Observation Posts (AOP) meant for directing artillery fire with accuracy. Artillery firepower would be provided by a couple of field guns that had been heli-lifted to the heights, piecemeal, and re-assembled over the previous few months when the Indians had been off-guard during the winter extremes. The target was a vulnerable section of Dras-Kargil Road, whose blocking would virtually cut off the crucial life-line which carried the bulk of supplies needed for daily consumption as well as annual winter-stocking in Leh-Siachen Sector. He was very hopeful that this stratagem could choke off the Indians in the vital sector for up to a month, after which the monsoons would prevent vehicular movement (due to landslides) and, also suspend all airlift by the IAF. “Come October, we shall walk in to Siachen – to mop up the dead bodies of hundreds of Indians left hungry, out in the cold,” he succinctly summed up what appeared to be a new dimension to the Siachen dispute. It also seemed to serve, at least for the time being, the secondary aim of alleviating Indian military pressure on Pakistani lines of communications in the Neelum Valley that the Corps Commander had alluded to in his opening remarks. (The oft-heard strategic aim of ‘providing a fillip to the insurgency in Kashmir’ was never mentioned.)

When Lt Gen Mehmud asked for questions at the end of the rather crisp and to-the-point briefing, Air Cdre Saleem Nawaz opened up by inquiring about the type of air support that might be needed for the operation. Lt Gen Mehmud assured us that air support was not envisaged and that his forces could take care of enemy aircraft, if they intervened. “I have Stingers on every peak,” he announced. Air Cdre Saleem tried to point out the limited envelope of these types of missiles and said that nothing stopped the IAF from attacking the posts and artillery pieces from high altitude. To this, Lt Gen Mehmud’s reply was that his troops were well camouflaged and concealed and, that IAF pilots would not be able to pick out the posts from the air. As the discussion became more animated, I asked the Corps Commander if he was sure the Indians would not use their artillery to vacate our incursion, given the criticality of the situation from their standpoint. He replied that the Dras-Kargil stretch did not allow for positioning of the hundreds of guns that would be required, due to lack of depth; in any case, it would be suicidal for the Indians to denude artillery firepower from any other sector as defensive balance had to be maintained. He gave the example of the Kathua-Jammu Sector where the Indians had a compulsion to keep the bulk of their modern Bofors guns due to the vital road link’s vulnerability to our offensive elements.”

My comment: The PA’s (or at least, the Plan’s proponents’) view on the lack of need for PAF involvement or association with the Operation is summarised in the underlined part above.

While, on the other hand; the questions posed by the PAF team’s Air Cmdes. Nawaz and Tufail clearly apprehended (and even actually predicted) the possible use of IAF air-power and IA’s Artillery power in response to Operation Badr (Kargil Ops).

Also read the fallacy of Lt.Gen. Mehmud’s assertion when he replied to Air Cmde. Tufail: “ that the Dras-Kargil stretch did not allow for positioning of the hundreds of guns that would be required, due to lack of depth; in any case, it would be suicidal for the Indians to denude artillery firepower from any other sector as defensive balance had to be maintained. He gave the example of the Kathua-Jammu Sector where the Indians had a compulsion to keep the bulk of their modern Bofors guns due to the vital road link’s vulnerability to our offensive elements.”
It did not at all happen as Lt. Gen Mehmud thought. The assertion by Mehmud was eventually proved to be hollow when the Indian Army moved up Artillery Guns (of which 130 guns alone were the Bofors FH-77 155 mm Howitzers) and MBRLs into the very same Dras-Kargil Sector in large numbers and unleashed an unrelenting Artillery Barrage on the ridges, peaks and valleys across; eventually expending approx. 250,000 rounds. On one day alone, 9000 shells were lobbed at Tiger Hill!
Seemingly, in the words of one Indian Army officer: “the (Indian) infantry started taking Bofors (howitzer) as their section weapon.”



The above exchange clearly proves that the PAF was far more prescient and sanguine as to how the ‘planned operation’ was likely to turn out in its consequences.
Actually it was the PAF's questions at the briefing, that actually predicted what course the Indian response would take. But the architects of the Kargil Plan(?) in the PA were too blinded by "hubris" to notice.


Then Kaiser Tufail sums up the PAF’s view as follows:
“Back at the Air Headquarters, we briefed the DCAS(Ops) about what had transpired at the 10 Corps briefing. His surprise at the developments, as well as his concern about the possibility of events spiralling out of control, could not remain concealed behind his otherwise unflappable demeanour. We all were also piqued at being left out of the Army’s planning, though we were given to believe that it was a ‘limited tactical action’ in which the PAF would not be required – an issue that none of us agreed with.”

Here again the PAF accurately predicted what would happen.
 
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And risk suffering the same fate (or worse) as Nawaz Sharif ?

Can you please stop spreading your propaganda and misinformation. Pakistan is not some totalitarian state where divergent views are greeted with iron fists. The circumstances of Nawaz Sharif are totally different compared to those of Lt Gen Aziz. There were other factors which lead to the coup and Kargil was only a small part of it. There are several people in Pakistan whom criticized the Army's conduct in Kargil. Admiral Bukhari opposed Kargil tooth and nail, in fact he resigned as the Chief of Navy but yet there were no reprisals against him. Several Secretaries and other distinguished people criticized Musharraf, but there was no reprisal against them. Stop depicting Pakistan as North Korea as you Indians totally love to do.

Here again the PAF accurately predicted what would happen.

The accounts of Hon Air Cmdr Tufail are indeed very accurate. I would expect nothing short of a man as brilliant as him.

Kargil was indeed an epic clusterfu**, don't get me wrong it was a brilliant tactical plan but an utter strategic failure. The High Command failed to take into account the response of the enemy, they never could have imagined IA would respond so quickly and with such decisive force. The Army failed to calculate the precision strikes the IAF would be able to carry out from high altitudes and they could never have imagined that IA would send a Corps to evict them.
 
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Check out Col(r) Ashfaq Hassan's (who was ex-Deputy Director ISPR at time of Kargil) book "Witness to Blunder".
He wrote the book on the basis of interviews of PA officers and men who were part of the Kargil Ops. He has exposed the fact that the PA troops were even sent up to occupy the empty Indian posts without being told the aims and objectives of those patrols. In his words, the action was a "success" till the PA troops encountered the IA troops; after that it was simply a disaster.
He also says that the PA casualties were over 1000, but the information was suppressed.
 
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Can you please stop spreading your propaganda and misinformation. Pakistan is not some totalitarian state where divergent views are greeted with iron fists. The circumstances of Nawaz Sharif are totally different compared to those of Lt Gen Aziz. There were other factors which lead to the coup and Kargil was only a small part of it. There are several people in Pakistan whom criticized the Army's conduct in Kargil. Admiral Bukhari opposed Kargil tooth and nail, in fact he resigned as the Chief of Navy but yet there were no reprisals against him. Several Secretaries and other distinguished people criticized Musharraf, but there was no reprisal against them. Stop depicting Pakistan as North Korea as you Indians totally love to do.

Mate, just asked a question.. No need to fly off the handle.. You need to remember that other people you mention did not fall under Musharraf's command.. Where as Aziz did..

And about totalitarian regime, well, there's got to be a reason why not a single Pakistani govt in last 65 years has completed its term...
 
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Kargil would not have happened if India had not occupied the Pakistani land in 1984




Staging fake battles to get bravery medal from Army by Indian soldiers, nah that's not lollywood, that's bollywood mate.

Plus the list of soldiers released were killed during heated skirmishes on LoC at that time. That what PAK Army said at that time and the time when list was released again.

I dont know why Indians always say PA denied their soldiers death when we owned up their death in 1999 by giving medals to our Soldiers. Perhaps that's another propoganda fed up to you guys by Bollywood and Indian Press to make you feel superior

it would have

Musharaff's dream to repeat a Siachen on India failed miserably.

Musharaff's main reason for kargil was to take the revenge for the beating SSG got from Indian Army in Siachen in 1989.

As for those who bring on point 5353 or whatever that point is called should go and have a look there they will find that mountain to be completely deserted,not a single outpost of PA is present on that mountain.
True that IE reported that PA has built bunker on that.But they were temporary shelters for a expedition team.Even IA soldiers have climbed that mountain recently after PA expedition.

It is immosible to remain on that mountain for more than 3-4 months of the year.
THere is nothing on that mountain.

please give link for claim
 
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