Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

[Albatross]

BTW, didn't he give his resignation to the army while he was a DS at Staff College? Which later got rejected?

Perhaps he has had that 'righteousness' spirit all along!

You are right about his resignation but he was talked into by taking it back by general amjad ...But later musharraf built a family relation with him as bilal is married into aziz's extended family..Many commanders were against his promotion to Lt general but musharraf himslef did that and later gave him key posts..
I personally feel that whatever he did is not totally wrong as even army should be accountable but i dont agree with his timings as it can add to already volatile domestic situation..

It appears these ' revelations' have also something to do with Mush's return to the country and elections.

He is totally lost and have no political future in pakistan after the sort of PM he gave us and the way he bowed infront of america and ruined our economy and respect...

 

[Xeric]

BTW, didn't he give his resignation to the army while he was a DS at Staff College? Which later got rejected?

Perhaps he has had that 'righteousness' spirit all along!

And perhaps his righteousness was sleeping when he command a facking corps?!

 

[third eye]

And perhaps his righteousness was sleeping when he command a facking corps?!

Reformed convicts they say make the best preachers.

The level of honesty Generals reach to after hanging their boots is amazing.

 

[Spring Onion]

It appears these ' revelations' have also something to do with Mush's return to the country and elections.

This also shows political affiliations of these people.

Strange fact is that all those politicains who accuse army and abuse it for own politics also have one or two of their close relatives at top posts in army including their brothers

 

[Jango]

And perhaps his righteousness was sleeping when he command a facking corps?!

I didn't refute that!

As the rank goes higher, righteousness gets thrown to the back!!!

CGS, Corp Commander, Brig in ISI and good relations with Mush as said in post 35, your eyes do get blinded!

Magr ab darhi rakh kar saray gunah maaf ho jatay hain!!!

 

[JanjaWeed]

Its not about truth. everybody already knew the plan. Its just about following Army rules and trust me our army personnel are good at following rules within institution
After retirement everybody wants a share in politics as they know only Army chiefs can have political role while in service .

But they are not as good once they come out of the army.. are they? Top generals are privy to the sensitive national security secrets & a good general takes it to the grave with him. But it's astonishing to see some retired generals are not that far from being lotas like the one you find in your political setup.

By the way why Mr Aziz think that such plan be exposed to everyone in Army. Its always few top people who are informed and as ISI head Mr. Aziz was one of those who knew.

But that's not what Aziz is claiming... is it? As per him only 4 people knew the plan.. & if I'm not wrong.. It's Gen Ziauddin Butt who was heading ISI then & even he seems to claim that he was not completely conversant with the whole plan.

 

[Pfpilot]

This has only one solution!
1;Zulfiqar ali bhutto chose General zia because he thought he wouldnt stage a coup bcoz he's not "Handsome" and no elite social background
NO MILITARY MERIT WAS TAKEN UNDER CONSIDERATION
2. Nawaz chose General Mussharaf because he thought he wouldnt stage a coup probably because he thought he doesnt have any elite background!
NO SERIOUS MILITARY MERIT WAS TAKEN UNDER CONSIDERATION!
Hence pakistan army didnt get a true leadership it deserved! And these two stagged coups!
>- These two when became the chiefs they installed weak top generals particularly musharaf {his top 4} !
COUPS ARE ALSO THE FAULT OF THE POLITICIANS!
>- if the PM or PRESIDENT start choosing the chiefs on merit and not because of favouritism ! Then weak and impotent top military leadership wont exist!

Inshort the chief of army staff should be chosen according to
-MERIT-
1-Either the senior most general
2-the most succesful(militarily) should be selected

PERSONAL LIKINGS OF THE PM OR PRESIDENT SHOULDNT BE THE MAIN CRITERIA!
Only this can assure that only potent leadership exists at the top! Otherwise DEBACLES will happen!

You realize you just murdered the concept of correlation. In your haste to blame the civilian leadership for picking incompetent generals, you overlooked why such events ever came to pass. Why would a Pakistani Prime Minister willingly and significantly weaken the war fighting capability of his armed forces and by extension himself? Why would a civilian leader wipe out the one "get out of jail free" card all global leaders hold dear? The ability to turn domestic pressure into a united and concerted cause against a foreign entity has served everyone from George Bush to Indira Gandhi to Vladimir Putin. Why would Nawaz genuinely weaken his geopolitical standing versus India by eliminating the leverage a highly capable force provides? These questions must be asked and honestly answered if the civilian leadership is to be blamed. Because the reason paranoia pervades every corridor of civilian governments is the constant involvement of the said military in their affairs. The evidence spans several generations at this point. Even the most ardent military supporters only argue as to why the army interferes, not if.

This is crucial because I am no fan of Nawaz Sharif or Zardari; men corrupt to the core. But I'd be intellectually dishonest if I didn't give the army the well deserved credit for creating and propping up a system that allows paranoid and incompetent men to flourish. For if even the slightest visionary took over power, the army's golden era would come crashing down. So please, go ahead and blame Bhutto, Nawaz and everyone who came before and after them, but don't shy away from placing the same accusations on the doorsteps of the generals that destroyed this nation.

We have fought numerous wars and not one has ended in a way that Pakistanis can be proud of. Without the extreme censorship of information that pervades our history. It also begs the question, how many incompetent military men form the top echelon of the armed forces? Because the idea that every leader installs a number of weak generals in order to strengthen his own seat requires for a never ending pool of yes men and incompetence spanning generations. At the least, those scores of Pakistani jawans bravely putting their lives on the line without once questioning why they must die, deserve an answer.

 

[batmannow]

When I asked you those questions, I knew the answers already. I only wanted an evasive response from you to establish your credibility.

Now that done, I take your leave.

that means, you still nt, ready to accept the reality?

 

[True pakistani 22]

Gen Perverz live on AJJ News
Saying Truth

 

[batmannow]

When I asked you those questions, I knew the answers already. I only wanted an evasive response from you to establish your credibility.

Now that done, I take your leave.

Remove George Fernandes -- Coffin Scandal
Date: 12 December 2001
Remove George Fernandes -- Coffin Scandal | Communist Party of India (Marxist)
Press Statement

The Polit Bureau of the Communist Party of India (Marxist) has issued the following statement:

Remove George Fernandes

The CAG report on the procurement for the armed forces during the Kargil conflict reveal largescale bungling and corrupt practices. There can be no more damning indictment than the conclusion arrived at in the report that Rs. 1046 crore, half of it in foreign exchange, was frittered away "breaching established principles of propriety".

The worst case concerns the buying of coffins at the rate of $ 2500 or equivalent to Rs. 1.09 lakh per piece. It is ridiculous to import aluminum coffins from the United States of America when such coffins can be easily produced and made available in the country. The scam involving the supply of cost inflated and overweight coffins to carry the bodies of Indian soldiers killed in Kargil, shows the depths of degeneration in the ministry presided over by George Fernandes.

George Fernandes should not have been re-inducted as minister of defence in the first place, when a judicial commission was investigating the tehelka tapes exposure. Now with the series of defence equipment related scandals tumbling out, the entire country would demand that he be immediately removed from his post. Nothing less can be acceptable to restore confidence among the people in the vital defence ministry.

The Polit Bureau of the CPI(M) calls upon all its Party units to mobilise the people to protest against this latest scandal and demand the removal of the defence minister.

Wednesday, 12 December, 2001, 19:44 GMT
Coffin scandal rages in India
BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | Coffin scandal rages in India
Kashmir is a hugely sensitive issue in India
The Indian parliament was adjourned on Wednesday for the second day running as the opposition demanded the resignation of Defence Minister George Fernandes over an army coffin scandal.
Both houses of parliament were adjourned over the affair which centres on a report that the government paid vastly inflated sums for coffins for soldiers killed in Kashmir in 1999.


Nobody will forgive those involved for having purchased coffins that had to be subsequently rejected

Indian state radio

Not only were the 500 aluminium coffins overpriced, but the US-based supplier failed to meet Indian specifications.

Soldiers killed fighting separatists in Indian-administered Kashmir are regarded as martyrs by many Indians and opposition deputies shouted down the government with cries of "coffin thieves".

"Nobody will forgive those involved for having purchased coffins that had to be subsequently rejected," Indian state radio commented on Wednesday.

Mr Fernandes only returned as defence minister in October after being forced out of office over a scandal over weapons purchases.

He has refused to resign, saying he has asked the US company for a refund

Public anger

More than 400 Indian soldiers were killed in the 1999 conflict which began when Islamic militants infiltrated the Kargil sector of Kashmir from Pakistan.


A report in The Times of India newspaper says the Comptroller and Auditor General found that the government had paid an American company $2,500 for each of the 500 coffins.


The fighting in Kashmir continues with one militant reported killed on Wednesday
But five years earlier, it had only paid $172 per coffin.

Moreover, many of the coffins were never used, being rejected as too heavy.


"What is really shocking is that the coffins of the martyrs were bought at an exorbitant price," said the chief whip of the opposition Congress Party, Pryaranjan Dasmunshi.

"They have no right to stay in office, until the prime minister explains to the house."


For Indian radio, the anger of opposition deputies was a genuine reflection of public feeling:

"The mood of the parliamentarians amply reflected the shock and anger faced by each and every Indian on these sordid revelations."

Ministry's reply

The Defence Ministry says it had to buy aluminium coffins so that the bodies of Indian soldiers could be sent home in a dignified manner.

It said that an order for 500 coffins was made with the company Buitron and Baize to be delivered in consignments.

When the first batch of coffins was delivered, it was discovered to be sub-standard and that led to the cancellation of the order for the remaining 350.

The Ministry of Defence says the company was in breach of contract and is asking for some of its money back.
for your eyes only, face the reality, & dont cry with pain!

FRIDAY, MAY 28, 2010

AoA: What Happens To Lt Gen Kishan Pal?

I have never met Lt Gen Kishan Pal, Srinagar Corps Commander during the Kargil War, nor was I a journalist when the war was being fought. I was in college in the summer of 1999, and remember poring over superbly vivid war dispatches in The Indian Express, the Times and occasionally Statesman. I had no idea at the time that I would be a defence journalist, or a journalist at all. But I do remember being thoroughly swept by the utter detail in the reports that correspondents sent back from the front. And anyone who kept a close tab on developments couldn't possibly forget the coverage that was given to operations in Batalik. I met Brigadier Devinder Singh for the first time in March this year, and totally by chance. His case was to come up at the Armed Forces Tribunal just as the infamous Sukna episode was winding down. On Wednesday afternoon, when Headlines Today broke the news about his legal victory, all those reports about Batalik came flooding back. It seemed improbably, fantastic that one man's war against a system that appeared calibrated to fix him, was now told it had behaved in the most reprehensible way possible. It seemed outlandish, crazy, almost surreal. And believe me, it seemed so to the Brigadier as well. At least at first. When I spoke to him in March for the first time, he wasn't hopeful of anything substantial from the tribunal. "One hopes they will see my point of view, even though it has been a long time since the operations," he said to me, with a rueful smile, but every bit still the soldier.

Brigadier Devinder Singh may have won back some undeniable honour for himself and his formation, the 70 Brigade, but every correspondent that covered the war -- and those who followed it as closely as I did -- agree that the judgement has interminably complicated what the establishment would have best liked kept asleep. Brigadier Singh was superbly modest when he spoke to Headlines Today, suggesting that the verdict was specific to his case and did not necessarily call into question to veracity of the official history of the operations as a whole. I, and a lot of others, think it actually does.

That history is always someone's opinion has always been known. But this judgement has frighteningly proved how personal interpersonal prejudices and malafide intentions are totally, utterly, meaningfully a part of official records of events. How else could one explain the superimposition of a fictitious brigade headquarters, headed by one Brigadier Ashok Dugal, in the operations? The judgement is searing proof that the biases of men, the top commanders during the war, may have totally subverted any truth we may ever hope to learn about Kargil. Will that truth only reside in a clutch of journalists who visited the front and were able to see and record what they saw before the establishment could bend it out of shape in battle performance reports and official histories? It's a question worth pondering. No wonder all our most important official histories are still officially classified.

What about Lt Gen Kishan Pal, who has finally found guts -- a full 24 hours after the judgement came out -- to come out and deny that he fudged any reports or showed any bias. What happens to him? Should he be reprimanded? Should he receive a rap on the knuckles? Is a rap enough for letting his prejudices steal honour from a battle formation and commander that deserved much more than they got? Is there any procedure that will allow the country to bring this General to task, and complete the truth about what really happened, and how lies came to be told on official documents that will live forever in the treasure-chests of the nation? All questions worth thinking about. In my opinion, of course.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/05/aoa-what-happens-to-lt-gen-kishan-pal.html

its happens all the time, croupt politicians, playing devils game, with men with hounnr in india, bt its just started in pakistan?

 

[batmannow]

You realize you just murdered the concept of correlation. In your haste to blame the civilian leadership for picking incompetent generals, you overlooked why such events ever came to pass. Why would a Pakistani Prime Minister willingly and significantly weaken the war fighting capability of his armed forces and by extension himself? Why would a civilian leader wipe out the one "get out of jail free" card all global leaders hold dear? The ability to turn domestic pressure into a united and concerted cause against a foreign entity has served everyone from George Bush to Indira Gandhi to Vladimir Putin. Why would Nawaz genuinely weaken his geopolitical standing versus India by eliminating the leverage a highly capable force provides? These questions must be asked and honestly answered if the civilian leadership is to be blamed. Because the reason paranoia pervades every corridor of civilian governments is the constant involvement of the said military in their affairs. The evidence spans several generations at this point. Even the most ardent military supporters only argue as to why the army interferes, not if.

This is crucial because I am no fan of Nawaz Sharif or Zardari; men corrupt to the core. But I'd be intellectually dishonest if I didn't give the army the well deserved credit for creating and propping up a system that allows paranoid and incompetent men to flourish. For if even the slightest visionary took over power, the army's golden era would come crashing down. So please, go ahead and blame Bhutto, Nawaz and everyone who came before and after them, but don't shy away from placing the same accusations on the doorsteps of the generals that destroyed this nation.

We have fought numerous wars and not one has ended in a way that Pakistanis can be proud of. Without the extreme censorship of information that pervades our history. It also begs the question, how many incompetent military men form the top echelon of the armed forces? Because the idea that every leader installs a number of weak generals in order to strengthen his own seat requires for a never ending pool of yes men and incompetence spanning generations. At the least, those scores of Pakistani jawans bravely putting their lives on the line without once questioning why they must die, deserve an answer.

try to find a single, politician who is better thn gerls like ayub, zia, musharaf for the economy & the poor peoples of pakistan?
if you think , this bloody damocrazy is serving the country better, thn plz make a slaughter house at every corner of the country & plz give a licence to kill every politician indeed?

 

[Chak Bamu]

When it comes to Kargil issue, thoughtful people have invariably found fault with Musharraf. It is painful to see patriotic Pakistani kids getting into verbal sparring with Indians. I wish there was someplace on forum where one could seriously discuss without Indians doing their trolling duties.

I came to know of the real story behind Kargil in 2001. Since then all the material has essentially confirmed the narrative that Gen (R) Shahid Aziz is telling today. An important source in this regard is AC (R) Kaiser Tufail's account of PAF and Kargil.

It was a pity that Army top brass decided to back Musharraf in his coup. That was a shame and the position in which we find ourselves is a direct result. You can always count on a dictator to make a mess of things and leave it to the worst among politicians to deal with. A few years down the road, these same politicians make the departed dictator look good. Nobody then cares that the political game was set in action by the dictator concerned.

I have always maintained that Musharraf was an unqualified disaster for Pakistan. His failings are many and varied. But any appreciation of his legacy will start from his prime role in Kargil. This episode was a complete disaster for Pakistan and Indians despite having faced serious setbacks and losses, used it to their advantage.

Kargil could have been important as a part of a greater strategy, but Musharraf's limited mind could not comprehend the fall out. The Kargil plan had existed since the mid-70s. Brig. G. M. Chaudhry was probably the first to pitch it to Z.A. Bhutto when he visited the sector as PM. BB was with him then, and that is why when (as a Maj. Gen) Musharraf proposed the plan to her in 1990(?) she immediately asked him if he had considered the diplomatic fall-out. Musharraf had not done so then, and even in 1999 he was clueless as to the international dimension of this misadventure. That is mule-headedness right there if you can see it. Poor stupid old Nawaz Sharif was taken for a trip to Lala-Land and was promised Kashmir (or a part thereof). The same Nawaz then had to rush to Washington upon Musharraf's urging to get Americans to intervene.

If one starts with a basic proposition that Musharraf would lie compulsively to save his a**, then one could see all that went wrong since 1999 to this day.

 

[sur]

Capital Talk (30th January 2013) Lt. Gen (R) Shahid Aziz Accusing Pervez Mushraf for Kargil - YouTube

 

[Mercenary]

What started this latest round of Kargil posts?

 

[sur]

Capital Talk (30th January 2013) Lt. Gen (R) Shahid Aziz Accusing Pervez Mushraf for Kargil - YouTube