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Longewala 'lies' - Nailed

@Joe Shearer ,

Its undoubted that Pakistanis were defeated in that war due to Airforce. But can anyone explain, why if Pakistani force started their attack at 3.30 am in nite and Airforce started its attack by 7 am after taking off at 6.30.

Why wasnt a 3k trooped, 45 tank regiment not overtake 120 guyz behind bunkers for 3+ hours?

Apparently - and I don't remember where I read this Pakistani view of events - there were very suspicious looking indications that the ground had been mined. Instead of simply wheeling around the tiny outpost, the commander elected to wait till dawn.

I am a little - more than a little - puzzled by the long wait.

My dear Joe,

Good to see after a long while.

Coming back to Tameem's childish post. It was debunked right away so there is no need to pinch the poor guy anymore.

Peace

I just finished reading a set of posts above and savouring them. Very good to read you after quite some time.

I know it was overkill to react to that post, but I was bemused by the capacity for self-deception that both sides display so easily and frequently.
 
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P can give you a 100 such anecdotes for IA too. Most importantly, our boys are ALWAYS training. It is the only thing in their lives- training to war all the time every time. Not like PA where every few years your guys run telephone companies, railways, cement factories, run the country etc.

i think the guy's talking about a battle, not the war. But i dont blame you, your tiny brains cant differentiate both/either.

Ok, but didn't you guys like...lose both...i mean the battle and the war...:drag: just blowing off some smoke man..dil pe mat lene ka :no:
 
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Not Important? Its ensuring long held Pakistani belief once again that 'Banya' only wins through cheat, lies & conspiracy not man to man ever throughout history......:hitwall:

Wrong everyone knows that Sunny Deol single handedly beat the Pakistanis in 1965 and 1971. If he was there in 1948. He would have beat you in that war single handedly too.


Sunny Deol, the greatest warrior
 
Wrong everyone knows that Sunny Deol single handedly beat the Pakistanis in 1965 and 1971. If he was there in 1948. He would have beat you in that war single handedly too.


Sunny Deol, the greatest warrior

Strangely I still like him. He's a modern actor from a past era.
 
Pakistan had around 75,000 regular army. Plus rangers and police of about 20,000 odd. We had only 1 suadron of PAF there. SO when the war started PAF was no match there and they did the right thing ...................
Ever wondered why such disparity????
 
In 1965, we had access to Indian areas but we didn't bomb them.
Talk of the day, Major Shabbir held his shooting because of a wedding procession in Indian village, which he conquered.
More over Major Shabbir Sharif spoke with Indian villagers, who mistook him as Indian army personal.
Major, Shabbir Sharif found Indian currency in Indian bunkers, which was returned to HQ and eventually to handed over to Indian General.
No Sir, Pak army do not do that.. instead one Indian told me that Indian arm used there own, Muslim soldiers as human shield during Kargil war.

SO really, your statements are not part of our culture, never heard before todate.
Why the stark change, now your assets bomb specifically civilians in trains, bus stations and hotels these days?
 
Strangely I still like him. He's a modern actor from a past era.

I liked him from the recent interview he did.

He seemed straight forward, and simple

Why the stark change, now your assets bomb specifically civilians in trains, bus stations and hotels these days?

I recommend people read kaiser tufail's blog.

That's a starting point. This thread has predictably descended into jingoistic circle jerk
 
this discussion has expanded too much

are bhai general sahab apni kitab bikwana chahte hai. he is trying to sell his book by sensationalizing it which evryone does. and what happned at longewala is well documented

pakistanis got their a$$ whupped by air force but army was important too as it held on .
Now they jump at first chance to prove their biggest blunder was ok.

longewala me dinner , jodhpur me nashta and delhi me lunch was their slogan.
 
this discussion has expanded too much

are bhai general sahab apni kitab bikwana chahte hai. he is trying to sell his book by sensationalizing it which evryone does. and what happned at longewala is well documented

pakistanis got their a$$ whupped by air force but army was important too as it held on .
Now they jump at first chance to prove their biggest blunder was ok.
.
makes sense.


....
Now they jump at first chance to prove their biggest blunder was ok.

longewala me dinner , jodhpur me nashta and delhi me lunch was their slogan.

Correction! Pak army had no plans to conquer anything like what you are saying.

This is a bad copy of what Indian commanders were saying in 1965.

Again they were simply planning to have tea in Lahore Gymkhana. Nothing like the caricature in your post.
 
Yeh first take care of your kashmir problem and your North-East indian problem and then talk about unity.
Go to any south indian city and talk to anyone in hindi and see how much they hate you. I like indians, except the north Indians who are ruling india and spoiling it for everyone. Most of my indian friends are from south here in Auckland who really hate north indians.

He's got a point u know....the same wedge that happened to be there between Bengalis and Punjabi's, he warns you beforehand so that you dont blame him later on.

As for so called rivalry between South and North India - you are probably talking of the 50's and the 60's - much of anything else is just symbolic now.
 
What silly questions. Ofcourse, Indians can do that in their Bollywood films. Their heroes singlehandedly can defeat the Pak army easily as demonstrated in many of their movies while there side heroes will die slowly of many wounds after lying down in the arms of the main heor and talk for about 10 minutes and then finally die.

Why has the writer now suddenly telling the truth and annoying a lot of indians who believed this fantasy.

Tsk! Tsk!

:mad:

In reality we have only 2 casuality but in movie we shows lot more :sick:
 
"It's about taking credit where little is due," said general Atma Singh, adding: "Can troops equipped with recoilless guns, medium machine guns and mortars beat off an armoured attack? I hope the book will lay the lies of the battle to rest."

actually,one can do,if opposing army is PA,who didn't make no engineering survey,no survey for mines and bogged down in soft sand..nobody said that IAF didn't contribute much..in fact,they were credited for over 40 tanks/armor vehicle along with scores of vehicles and other kills,while IA got only 10 of such credited kills...and yes,Recoilless gun can punch a tank,Abdul Hamid showed that..
 
Well we lost the war, but our PAF did us proud. But read the article below.

Chuck Yeager and the Pakistan Air Force

An Excerpt from Yeager,

the Autobiography of General (Retd.) Chuck E. Yeager (USA)

The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians'] a$$es in the sky, but it was the other way around in the ground war. The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7 fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. The Pakistani army would cart off these items for me, and when the war ended, it took two big American Air Force cargo lifters to carry all those parts back to the States for analysis by our intelligence division.

I didn't get involved in the actual combat because that would've been too touchy, but I did fly around and pick up shot-down Indian pilots and take them back to prisoner-of-war camps for questioning. I interviewed them about the equipment they had been flying and the tactics their Soviet advisers taught them to use. I wore a uniform or flying suit all the time, and it was amusing when those Indians saw my name tag and asked, "Are you the Yeager who broke the sound barrier?" They couldn't believe I was in Pakistan or understand what I was doing there. I told them, "I'm the American Defense Rep here. That's what I'm doing."

Copyright © 1985 by Yeager Inc.

And same superior PAF could not save Chuck Yeager's plane from IAF :rofl:

The right stuff in the wrong place--Chuck Yeager's crash landing in Pakistan, by Edward C. Ingraham
Pakistan in 1971 encompassed both the present-day country and the more populous East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. The country's two wings were separated by a thousand miles of Indian territory and a massive cultural barrier. From its inception, Pakistan had been ruled by the politicians and soldiers of the West Wing, whose view of their Eastern compatriots was best expressed to me by a Pakistani general: "Our East Wing, you see, is a low-lying country inhabited by . . . heh, heh . . . low, lying people.'

In early 1971, the Western rulers inexplicably permitted a free, nationwide election--the first in the country's history. The downtrodden masses of East Pakistan united behind a single candidate, swept the polls, and ended up in complete control of the nation's parliament. The dumbfounded Westerners promptly annulled the election, tossed the victorious Eastern leaders in jail, and shipped a good part of Pakistan's army to the East to ensure tranquility. The result was a campaign of brutal oppression, followed quickly by a civil war, the flight of ten million refugees into neighboring India, and, in due course, Indian intervention in support of the resistance.

Back in Islamabad, we at the embassy were increasingly preoccupied with the deepening crisis. Meetings became more frequent and more tense. The ambassador fulminated against our consulate in Dhaka, East Pakistan's capital, for reporting to the State Department the enormity of the slaughter. We argued over what we should recommend to Washington, and we were troubled by the complex questions that the conflict raised.

That is, most of us were troubled. No such doubts seemed to cross the mind of Chuck Yeager. I remember one occasion on which Farland asked Yeager for his assessment of how long the Pakistani forces in the East could withstand an all-out attack by India. "We could hold them off for maybe a month,' he replied, "but beyond that we wouldn't have a chance without help from outside.' It took the rest of us a moment to fathom what he was saying, not realizing at first that the "we' was West Pakistan, not the United States. After the meeting, I mumbled something to Yeager about perhaps being a little more even-handed in his comments. He gave me a withering glance. "Goddamn it, we're assigned to Pakistan,' he said. "What's wrong with being loyal?!' Disloyally, I slunk away.


The dictator of Pakistan at the time, the one who had ordered the crackdown in the East, was a dim-witted general named Yahya Khan. Way over his head in events he couldn't begin to understand, Yahya took increasingly to brooding and drinking. Somehow he also took a fancy to Farland, who had met with him on several occasions to deliver suggestions and ukases from Washington. He would invite the reluctant ambassador over to his office to drink and brood with him. It would have been fun to hear their conversations: Major Hoople chatting with Caliban. The link proved less useful than we hoped, however, as it became clear that Yahya was more interested in having a drinking partner than an advisor.

In December of 1971, with Indian-supplied guerrillas applying more and more pressure on his beleaguered forces, Yahya decided on a last, hopeless gesture of defiance. He ordered what was left of his armed forces to attack India directly from the West. His air force roared across the border on the afternoon of December 3 to bomb Indian air bases, while his army crashed into India's defenses on the Western frontier.

Yahya's attack caught the embassy more than normally unprepared. As it happened, Farland's deputy, the career officer who had actually been running the embassy, was halfway around the world on a long-delayed vacation. Although he rushed back, it was several days before he could reach war-torn Islamabad. Meanwhile, Farland was quite uncomfortable, since he was now in actual, rather than nominal, control of the embassy. Faced with a host of urgent decisions, he sat frozen behind his desk, unable to decide on much of anything (which, in retrospect, turned out to be the best thing to do). Yeager, meanwhile, spent the first hours of the war stalking the embassy corridors like Henry V before Agincourt, snarling imprecations at the Indians and assuring anyone who would listen that the Pakistani army would be in New Delhi within a week.

It was the morning after the initial Pakistani strike that Yeager began to take the war with India personally. On the eve of their attack, the Pakistanis had been prudent enough to evacuate their planes from airfields close to the Indian border and move them back into the hinterlands. But no one thought to warn General Yeager. Thus, when an Indian fighter pilot swept low over Islamabad's airport in India's first retaliatory strike, he could see only two small planes on the ground. Dodging antiaircraft fire, he blasted both to smithereens with 20-millimeter cannon fire. One was Yeager's Beechcraft. The other was a plane used by United Nations forces to supply the patrols that monitored the ceasefire line in Kashmir.

I never found out how the United Nations reacted to the destruction of its plane, but Yeager's response was anything but dispassionate. He raged to his cowering colleagues at a staff meeting. His voice resounding through the embassy, he proclaimed that the Indian pilot not only knew exactly what he was doing but had been specifically instructed by Indira Gandhi to blast Yeager's plane. ("It was,' he relates in his book, "the Indian way of giving Uncle Sam the finger.')
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At this meeting, I ventured the timid suggestion that, to an Indian pilot skimming the ground at 500 miles per hour under antiaircraft fire, precise identification of targets on an enemy airfield might take lower priority than simply hitting whatever was there and then getting the hell out. Restraining himself with difficulty, Yeager informed me that anyone dumb enough not to know a deliberate attack on the American flag when he saw one had no business wearing his country's uniform. Since I was a civilian wearing a gray sweater at the time, I didn't fully grasp his nuances, but the essential meaning was clear.

Our response to this Indian atrocity, as I recall, was a top priority cable to Washington that described the incident as a deliberate affront to the American nation and recommended immediate countermeasures. I don't think we ever got an answer.


The destruction of the Beechcraft was the last straw for Yeager. He vanished from his office, and, to the best of my knowledge, wasn't seen again in Islamabad until the war was over. It wasn't a long period; the Indians took only two weeks to trounce the Pakistanis. East Pakistan, known as Bangladesh, became an independent country, and Yahya resigned in disgrace. He was so drunk during his televised farewell speech that the camera focused not on him but on a small table radio across the room.

And where had Yeager been during these dramatic two weeks? The slim entries in his autobiography aren't much help. Yeager says that he "didn't get involved in the actual combat because that would have been too touchy.' He then goes on to explain casually that he did "fly around' on such chores as picking up Indian pilots who had been shot down, interrogating them, and hauling them off to prison camps. There are clues, however, that suggest a more active role. A Pakistani businessman, son of a senior general, told me excitedly that Yeager had moved into the big air force base at Peshawar and was personally directing the grateful Pakistanis in deploying their fighter squadrons against the Indians. Another swore that he had seen Yeager emerge from a just-landed jet fighter at the Peshawar base. Yeager was uncharacteristically close-mouthed in succeeding weeks, but a sly grin would appear on his leathery face when we rehashed the war in staff meetings. I once asked him point-blank what he had been up to during the war. "I went fishing,' he growled.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_v17/ai_3959887/?tag=content;col1
Our Navy's former Admiral Arun Prakash shot his plane:crazy_pilot:

Aray bhai, lets look at the 1971 war logistically. The Indians had started training the Bengalis months in advance in weapons training and alot of Bengalis in Pakistan army deserted and joined them. They were around close to 200,000 or more. India had around 250,000 soldiers in that border and it has atleast 6 to 7 squadron of IAF based there.
Pakistan had around 75,000 regular army. Plus rangers and police of about 20,000 odd. We had only 1 suadron of PAF there. SO when the war started PAF was no match there and they did the right thing by taking their planes to Iran. And Pakistan army could not beat the combined forces of Indian army and the Bengalis. We were outmatched and cut off from West Pakistan. Strategically no one could have won that war in those circumstances. Now in West Pakistan we fought bravely and our PAF screwed then over. Our planes too attacked their cities in the border town and our army fought bravely.
Now we can argue about why did Gen Niazi surrender and did not fight on. But our ammunition was only a few days left. The result would have been the same. He figured to save lives. And he is hated now.
Let the Indians be happy, as only with these kind of circumstances they could have won the war. If the odds were equal they would not dream of fighting us.

In 1965, when we had the Bengalis on our side see what happened. Unity is very important, without it the enemy will always triumph.

So, you mean to say that PAF ship their planes of East Pakistan to Iran:hang2:
Improve your geography & history knowledge, they ship planes of western sector to Iran to from IAF routine bombing.
 
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Aray bhai, lets look at the 1971 war logistically. The Indians had started training the Bengalis months in advance in weapons training and alot of Bengalis in Pakistan army deserted and joined them. They were around close to 200,000 or more. India had around 250,000 soldiers in that border and it has atleast 6 to 7 squadron of IAF based there.
Pakistan had around 75,000 regular army. Plus rangers and police of about 20,000 odd. We had only 1 suadron of PAF there. SO when the war started PAF was no match there and they did the right thing by taking their planes to Iran. And Pakistan army could not beat the combined forces of Indian army and the Bengalis. We were outmatched and cut off from West Pakistan. Strategically no one could have won that war in those circumstances. Now in West Pakistan we fought bravely and our PAF screwed then over. Our planes too attacked their cities in the border town and our army fought bravely.
Now we can argue about why did Gen Niazi surrender and did not fight on. But our ammunition was only a few days left. The result would have been the same. He figured to save lives. And he is hated now.
Let the Indians be happy, as only with these kind of circumstances they could have won the war. If the odds were equal they would not dream of fighting us.

In 1965, when we had the Bengalis on our side see what happened. Unity is very important, without it the enemy will always triumph.
The premise of 'Defence of East Pakistan lies in West' was based on the objective that in a war, East Pakistan would lose territory to India, while West Pakistan would gain territory against India. Thus India would have to agree to give up what they win in East in turn to get what they lose in the West.

That was the rationale behind keeping a majority of Pakistan's men and meterials in West Pakistan.

@FaujHistorian Now in the war, did Pakistan gain major chunks of territory against India? Because if that did not happen, Pakistan lost the game in West Pakistan as well. You have access to online resources. Please tell me how much area did West Pakistan gain against India and how much area did India gain against West Pakistan.

Eagerly awaiting your reply.
 
Yeh first take care of your kashmir problem and your North-East indian problem and then talk about unity.
Go to any south indian city and talk to anyone in hindi and see how much they hate you. I like indians, except the north Indians who are ruling india and spoiling it for everyone. Most of my indian friends are from south here in Auckland who really hate north indians.

I lived in many south Indian Cities over the year . What the fork are you going about . How many Times have you lived in South India , Dear Enlightened one ?? .
 
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