LOCKHEED MARTIN AWARDED TSS CONTRACT FOR PAKISTANI AH-1Z

[Band Aid]

The Mi-28NE and T-129 are designed for different roles. The Mi-28NE is a heavyweight capable of taking on anti-armour CAS operations, like the Apache. The T-129 is a lighter aircraft optimized for hot-and-high operations, i.e. high altitude, thus making it ideal for backing our infantry in mountainous areas. I think the Army is trying to decide exactly where it'll get the absolute most out of its attack helicopters, and then procure accordingly.

In case of action on western front most of the clashes with enemy would be on open desert areas of Sindh and Punjab. So I believe that there Mi-28 would be the ideal choice? as we might also face enemy's choppers as well.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

In case of action on western front most of the clashes with enemy would be on open desert areas of Sindh and Punjab. So I believe that there Mi-28 would be the ideal choice? as we might also face enemy's choppers as well.

I would think so too. To be fair to the T-129, it is capable of anti-armour operations as well, but it doesn't have as much payload as the Mi-28NE (8 vs. 16 ATGM). But it would still be better than the AH-1F/S. So, there's overlap, though the Army's decision would depend on how much it values having the T-129 up north.

If the Army keeps its requirement open for some time longer, then the Denel Aviation Rooivalk Mk2 might become a factor too. It appears that Denel has written the Rooivalk's development cost down, meaning, the development overhead won't be charged to users moving forward. The cost of the helicopter will be the cost of its parts and its upgrades, which are in the avionics, weapons, and some internal components, but otherwise marginal.

The Rooivalk Mk2 will retain the Rooivalk's Malika turboshaft, which is also the turboshaft engine of the Super Puma, which is optimized for hot-and-high operations. The Pakistani MoDP also expressed interest in Romania's Puma-line, which will be revived to manufacture the Super Puma exclusively. So, there's possibility of engine and other parts commonality.

I admit, I am a Denel/South Africa fan, but that is entirely because that country offers transfer-of-technology benefits up front in almost all of its dealings.

 

[ali_raza]

I would think so too. To be fair to the T-129, it is capable of anti-armour operations as well, but it doesn't have as much payload as the Mi-28NE (8 vs. 16 ATGM). But it would still be better than the AH-1F/S. So, there's overlap, though the Army's decision would depend on how much it values having the T-129 up north.

If the Army keeps its requirement open for some time longer, then the Denel Aviation Rooivalk Mk2 might become a factor too. It appears that Denel has written the Rooivalk's development cost down, meaning, the development overhead won't be charged to users moving forward. The cost of the helicopter will be the cost of its parts and its upgrades, which are in the avionics, weapons, and some internal components, but otherwise marginal.

The Rooivalk Mk2 will retain the Rooivalk's Malika turboshaft, which is also the turboshaft engine of the Super Puma, which is optimized for hot-and-high operations. The Pakistani MoDP also expressed interest in Romania's Puma-line, which will be revived to manufacture the Super Puma exclusively. So, there's possibility of engine and other parts commonality.

I admit, I am a Denel/South Africa fan, but that is entirely because that country offers transfer-of-technology benefits up front in almost all of its dealings.

i just met a former employee of denel yesterday.
he was saying we are developing alote of new things that will be displayed in coming years.
and they are very reasonable people.no western arrogance

 

[Trango Towers]

Pakistan isn't spending enough on R&D.
When I was doing my masters at Cranfield Institute of technology (in aircraft design) I did a combat helicopter feasibility and pre design study based on the puma engine and transmission. I am sure we will be able to buy certain items of the shelf and then build a body around that. it may not be state of the art initially but neither was jf17, and now even that's a capable beast

 

[A2Z]

In case of action on western front most of the clashes with enemy would be on open desert areas of Sindh and Punjab. So I believe that there Mi-28 would be the ideal choice? as we might also face enemy's choppers as well.

I would think so too. To be fair to the T-129, it is capable of anti-armour operations as well, but it doesn't have as much payload as the Mi-28NE (8 vs. 16 ATGM). But it would still be better than the AH-1F/S.

Yes no doubt, as we are inducting platforms to take out enemy's armored divisions they are doing the same. So we must also plan to handle those airborne helicopters as well. In this scenario indeed Havoc would out perform T-129.

However can't we operate a mix of the types? I am talking about in a task force sent to take out enemy we can have platforms like havoc who can pound the enemy with the payload they carry and other faster ones can go in and take out enemy's airborne choppers. Just like airforces do, they have fighters that take out enemy aircrafts and provide cover, jammers like Growler make enemy go blind so that incoming bomb trucks lay ruins in peace.

Just my thought.

 

[Band Aid]

Yes no doubt, as we are inducting platforms to take out enemy's armored divisions they are doing the same. So we must also plan to handle those airborne helicopters as well. In this scenario indeed Havoc would out perform T-129.

However can't we operate a mix of the types? I am talking about in a task force sent to take out enemy we can have platforms like havoc who can pound the enemy with the payload they carry and other faster ones can go in and take out enemy's airborne choppers. Just like airforces do, they have fighters that take out enemy aircrafts and provide cover, jammers like Growler make enemy go blind so that incoming bomb trucks lay ruins in peace.

Just my thought.

I personally believe PAA don't have that sort of funds and even if they do I think there is a difference between aerial warfare and battle between armory.

 

[waz]

What could be the possible location of mounting mmW radar on AH1Z in your opinion? Rotor top? Hard point?
Are there any timelines for arrival of such unit & its clearance for export?

Simply put, Pakistan didn't procure a millimeter wave radar for the AH-1Z because there isn't one available, yet. The U.S. is developing a millimeter wave radar for the AH-1Z, it is based on the Longbow radar, but will be adapted for use on the Viper. As it stands today, it seems that USMC and Pakistan Army AH-1Zs are similarly equipped.

Brothers the Longbow radar for the Viper has been developed. It is mounted on one of the wing stations.
It is called the Cobra radar system.

I guess we will see a following order for the radar, and hopefully more Vipers.

 

[Band Aid]

Brothers the Longbow radar for the Viper has been developed. It is mounted on one of the wing stations.
It is called the Cobra radar system.

I guess we will see a following order for the radar, and hopefully more Vipers.

Do you think USA will offer us longbow radar? Since their latest romance with our neighbors would be the biggest hurdle between our vipers and Cobra radar.

 

[waz]

Do you think USA will offer us longbow radar? Since their latest romance with our neighbors would be the biggest hurdle between our vipers and Cobra radar.

Yes, if Pakistan asks for it. The Indian "romance" doesn't mean squat when it comes to Pakistan/US affairs.

 

[Tipu7]

Brothers the Longbow radar for the Viper has been developed. It is mounted on one of the wing stations.
It is called the Cobra radar system.

I guess we will see a following order for the radar, and hopefully more Vipers.

Under Development. Yet to become Operational.

 

[waz]

Under Development. Yet to become Operational.

It's already on part of the US Viper fleet bro.

 

[Tipu7]

It's already on part of the US Viper fleet bro.

Never seen it bro.
There is only one pic of mmW radar on AH1Z which you just shared. There is no other pic, video or news mentioned any where else about its operationability. May be I am missing some thing but as far as I know this system is still under development................

 

[waz]

Never seen it bro.
There is only one pic of mmW radar on AH1Z which you just shared. There is no other pic, video or news mentioned any where else about its operationability. May be I am missing some thing but as far as I know this system is still under development................

I'll put up a link. There was an article I read the other when I was debating the Indian chap, and it stated that part of the Viper fleet has been fitted with the Longbow radar.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

I would think so too. To be fair to the T-129, it is capable of anti-armour operations as well, but it doesn't have as much payload as the Mi-28NE (8 vs. 16 ATGM). But it would still be better than the AH-1F/S. So, there's overlap, though the Army's decision would depend on how much it values having the T-129 up north.

Very well put.

Readers should please check actual payloads carried by the Apache in combat. It is still twice as much as the Marine AH-1F/S carry operationally but with enough engine power, a lighter helicopter is still just as effective, specially when used in flights of two or four at a time.

You are usually not limited by your payload in a sortie (if you can carry three or four missiles and a 19-pack of rockets per helicopter) but by fuel and other considerations. Hard to fly and maneuver with maximum payloads also, even for an Apache.

Furthermore, even though the 30mm cannon is effective against tanks, please Google the effects of firing a 30mm cannon from the Apache: the need to re-boresight it after every firing and its vibration effects on the fuselage are educational. The 20mm is better for infantry and APCs, and these days Thermobaric rockets and Hellfires are being employed primarily for anti-personnel duties.

 

[Naif al Hilali]

If the Army keeps its requirement open for some time longer, then the Denel Aviation Rooivalk Mk2 might become a factor too. It appears that Denel has written the Rooivalk's development cost down, meaning, the development overhead won't be charged to users moving forward. The cost of the helicopter will be the cost of its parts and its upgrades, which are in the avionics, weapons, and some internal components, but otherwise marginal.

The Rooivalk Mk2 will retain the Rooivalk's Malika turboshaft, which is also the turboshaft engine of the Super Puma, which is optimized for hot-and-high operations. The Pakistani MoDP also expressed interest in Romania's Puma-line, which will be revived to manufacture the Super Puma exclusively. So, there's possibility of engine and other parts commonality.

I admit, I am a Denel/South Africa fan, but that is entirely because that country offers transfer-of-technology benefits up front in almost all of its dealings.

Sorry Bilal, don't mean to dump on your favorites but the Rooivalk was a disaster lesson in program management, development, production, reliability, sustenance, and maintenance.

Don't have better hopes for Mk2; my own feeling is they will never get enough financing to start a meaningful program given all the money they bled when they were not so cash-strapped.

I believe Z-10s for the plains (maybe other places as well if they can get the new Safran engines on them) and T-129s for high-altitude operation remain the best bet.