Liberation War martyrs would exceed 30 lac: Mamun

[baldFish]

Its possible that what you are saying is correct, I am not claiming that what I said is true as they are all possible figures quoted by different people at different times in this forum. That is why I support a completely new much more comprehensive investigation to uncover the true death figures from all sides, Bengali Hindu, Bengali Muslim, Bihari/Hindustani Muslims, West Pakistani Muslims, combatants and non-combatants, as well as accurate number of rape and other atrocities. Our future generation deserves a more accurate historical account of what took place, who were the master minds who engineered this civil war (IB of India, RAW etc. or PPP/ISI ?) and who were the foot soldiers.

its not as complicated as you make it seem, the then west pakistani rulling elites greed was the main reason and after the death of Jinnah there was a massive crisis of leadership and then again partition was fueled by some islamists

Truth of 1965 and 1971 war between india pakistan by pakistani journalist - YouTube

 

[kalu_miah]

its not as complicated as you make it seem, the then west pakistani rulling elites greed was the main reason and after the death of Jinnah there was a massive crisis of leadership and then again partition was fueled by some islamists

I will see the video later and then comment on it. West Pakistani ruling elites greed was definitely one explanation and one of the reason, but that goes for East Pakistan political elites greed also, mainly those of RAWami League. But I am not sure what your comment is about, 1971 civil war that split off Pakistan? My comments you quoted is about a fresh investigation to find the exact death figure, as well as the people behind the event that killed those people, which includes people in East and West Pakistan, as well as leaders in India and their intelligence agents who worked for them.

Partition fueled by some Islamists? Islamist leader like Moududi were against Partition. It was more secular leaders like Jinnah heading Muslim league that went for Partition.

 

[lkozhi]

 

[TopCat]

I will see the video later and then comment on it. West Pakistani ruling elites greed was definitely one explanation and one of the reason, but that goes for East Pakistan political elites greed also, mainly those of RAWami League. But I am not sure what your comment is about, 1971 civil war that split of Pakistan? My comments you quoted is about a fresh investigation to find the exact death figure, as well as the people behind the event that killed those people, which includes people in East and West Pakistan, as well as leaders in India and their intelligence agents who worked for them.

Partition fueled by some Islamists? Islamist leader like Moududi were against Partition. It was more secular leaders like Jinnah heading Muslim league that went for Partition.

Well Mr. Kalu, you had been reading too much M_Saint and Akmal's posting.

You have to go deep before you can understand the split between east and west. It was no racism but east pakistan just fell prey of the whole design of Pakistan.

People think that language movement was the core issue but in contrary it was the land reform which scared the hell out of West Pakistani elites. The day East Pakistan introduced land reform and abolished feudal system, the same day West Pakistani land lords made that pledge that Bengalis can never be allowed to take full control of the Pakistan. They whole heartedly supported military rule all throughout the Pakistan Era due to this core fact. The military on the other hand rewarded west pakistanis with all the privileges that they asked for including not talking about land reform.

 

[kalu_miah]

Well Mr. Kalu, you had been reading too much M_Saint and Akmal's posting.

You have to go deep before you can understand the split between east and west. It was no racism but east pakistan just fell prey of the whole design of Pakistan.

People think that language movement was the core issue but in contrary it was the land reform which scared the hell out of West Pakistani elites. The day East Pakistan introduced land reform and abolished feudal system, the same day West Pakistani land lords made that pledge that Bengalis can never be allowed to take full control of the Pakistan. They whole heartedly supported military rule all throughout the Pakistan Era due to this core fact. The military on the other hand rewarded west pakistanis with all the privileges that they asked for including not talking about land reform.

Well Mr. iajdani, M_Saint Bhai is a patriot for sure and he means well, so I trust his opinions, although on many issues we have differences of opinion. For me Akmal Bhai just brings a lot of new pertinent information that I have not seen before, but I think he has too soft a corner for Pakistan for my taste. If you think my opinion is based on views from these two posters, then you have very inflated view about your own perception.

What you bring up about land reform is indeed a very interesting and central point which Pakistani elite would object to, as most leaders there including Bhutto's are from Zaminder families with extremely large land holdings and this feudal system is one of their biggest problem. Military's collusion with this feudal elite is a well known fact even today in Pakistan that is hindering the development of their democracy.

So what you are saying is that it was all the fault of political and military elite of West Pakistan and RAW and Indian intelligence branch (IB) before RAW's formation had no role with Awami Muslim League and Awami League during 1949-1971 to fund and support the development of Bengali nationalism, which laid the ground work of 1971 civil war?

 

[Md Akmal]

For me Akmal Bhai just brings a lot of new pertinent information that I have not seen before, but I think he has too soft a corner for Pakistan for my taste. If you think my opinion is based on views from these two posters, then you have very inflated view about your own perception.?

@ If I have a soft corner for Pakistan then definitely it is for our very existence. We must have always a cordial relation with Pakistan even beyond that for the very existence of our country. If today Pakistan is broken than be sure in the half decade the fate of Bangladesh will be either like Hydrabad or even if we existent it will be like Bhutan.

@ For the last 40 years or so we had been hearing all the one sided propaganda's of Awami Leaque and India.

@ It is true that Pakistan had exploited us in many aspects for the last 24 years but the way India and AL says there is hardly any truth on it.

@ The problem was once in 1947 once Bengal became the part of Pakistan, it was no match with the other parts of Pakistan. All the military installations were located at various parts of Pakistan. These were mainly on the Afghan side of the border like Noshera, Waziristan, Chirat, Abbotabad, Rawalpindi and others. They had good number of military strength. Most of them were in the British Indian Army. Where we had no such installations other than some abandoned airfields scattered through out Bangladesh. For your information in 1947 in East Pakistan we had only one skeleton Divisional HQ located at old High Court building, one Combined Military Hospital (CMH) at Dacca Medical College and one yes only one Punjab Regiment. With this one Punjab Regiment along with the scouts of Fuzlul Kader Chow we marched to Rangamati and brought down the flags of Congress and flags of India and brought it under our dominion. In those days we had not a single Jute Mills. There were no Head maters, no Principals, no Darogas, no DC'c, no EP's, all went to India. Can you think in those days we had not a single CSP officer. So comparing East Bengal with other provinces of Pakistan was useless. By 70's the Bengali CSP officers came up at per West Pakistani CSP officers. Even the standard of Bengali CSP officers were better. Soon they started dominating in the foreign services. Never belief on the statical figures of Awami Intellectuals.

 

[kalu_miah]

Just saw the video above by Najam Sethi, also saw his website:
Najam Sethi

He makes valid points about death of Jinnah and instead of his dream of an Islamic Social Welfare state, a National Security state was created by the military-feudal elite of West Pakistan, mostly under Martial law military rule, together with the US as the cold war ally with India as the arch-enemy and bogeyman. But that is only one part of the story. It does not cover what happened in East Pakistan with formation of Awami National League in 1949 and India's funding and support of it to help promote Bengali nationalism. I think everyone knows well what happened on the surface, but what we are more interested in is what went on behind the scenes that shaped events, such as actions of Indian Intelligence Branch which later became RAW.

 

[kalu_miah]

@ If I have a soft corner for Pakistan then definitely it is for our very existence.

@ For the last 40 years or so we had been hearing all the one sided propaganda's of Awami Leaque and India.

@ It is true that Pakistan had exploited us in many aspects for the last 24 years but the way India and AL says there is hardly any truth on it.

@ The problem was once in 1947 once Bengal became the part of Pakistan, it was no match with the other parts of Pakistan. All the military installations were located at various parts of Pakistan. These were mainly on the Afghan side of the border like Noshera, Waziristan, Chirat, Abbotabad, Rawalpindi and others. They had good number of military strength. Most of them were in the British Indian Army. Where we had no such installations other than some abandoned airfields scattered through out Bangladesh. For your information in 1947 in East Pakistan we had only one skeleton Divisional HQ located at old High Court building, one Combined Military Hospital (CMH) at Dacca Medical College and one yes only one Punjab Regiment. With this one Punjab Regiment along with the scouts of Fuzlul Kader Chow we marched to Rangamati and brought down the flags of Congress and flags of India and brought it under our dominion. In those days we had not a single Jute Mills. There were no Head maters, no Principals, no Darogas, no DC'c, no EP's, all went to India. Can you think in those days we had not a single CSP officer. So comparing East Bengal with other provinces of Pakistan was useless. By 70's the Bengali CSP officers came up at per West Pakistani CSP officers. Even the standard of Bengali CSP officers were better. Soon they started dominating in the foreign services. Never belief on the statical figures of Awami Intellectuals.

Akmal Bhai, you have probably grown up in then West Pakistan and have known their population much more than I could, as I grew up in Dhaka. Although I did have close friends from Pakistan during my college and work days in the US. So you probably have much better information about their mindset, generosity, failings etc. It is also natural for you to have more sympathy because of these reasons, it is only human. Also I do not doubt that the unfair treatment by West Pakistan was more exaggerated than what it really was by Awami propaganda. Like you said, East Pakistan Muslims had nothing when most of the qualified Hindu's left for Kolkata, it took a few decades for our educated middle class to recover somewhat.

Now, looking at historical perspective, I personally do not blame general population of West Pakistan for the military crackdown that their political-military elite decided on, while I do not blame the population of East Pakistan because of the way they were manipulated by Indian instigated Bengali nationalism and six-point movement led by Awami League. But the hard fact remains that Bhutto-Yahya leadership did decide and gave a go-ahead on Operation Searchlight and it was executed by their subordinates. That triggered the mass killings on both sides, the killing of Bengali's and killing of Bihari/Hindustani Muslims. You may say that RAW agents and Awami thugs did start killings before that already, but these were not large in number and could not have taken shape into a civil war, if they came to a compromise with Mujib, let him be the PM, allow him to make a mess of himself in a few years, as he was incompetent to begin with and then remove him from power in a coup. But instead of choosing a smart option, they chose the wrong thing to do. They did exactly what our enemy the Indian planners and strategists wanted them to do. Instead of dousing the fire with fire extinguisher, they brought an oil tanker and started adding petrol to the fire. Because of this poor choice, some people today even come up with accusation that it was a deliberate attempt by West Pakistan to break off from East Pakistan, instead of going under Bengali rule. And this whole scene took place in East Pakistan, where both local Bengali Hindus/Muslims and Bihari/Hindustani Muslims bore the brunt and got used as cannon fodder.

That is my reason for making that point.

I do support reconciliation and good relationship with Pakistan, as I stated before, after all we are the 2nd and 3rd largest Muslim countries of the world, so in the greater interest of the Muslim world, we have no other choice, in my opinion. And I will always wish them well. But we cannot totally ignore history, that will be an injustice and mark of disrespect to all the people that lost their lives in 1971, regardless of what the total number of dead is and regardless of what their ethnic make up was.

And in my mind, I hold these people to be the perpetrators in this crime:

1. Indian master planners and strategists and their agents in East Pakistan for stoking a nationalism, to advance their geopolitical interest
2. West Pakistani elite that either by mistake or deliberately chose to take the bait and initiated the military crackdown called Operation Searchlight

The victims of course are:

1. Bengali Hindus/Muslims and Bihari/Hindustani Muslims that lost lives and suffered rape and other torture and atrocities

 

[Baby Leone]

It could reach 300 million if this AL govt remains in power for 1 or 2 more time...

it seems they are adding intrests on it

 

[Md Akmal]

@ Dear kalu_miah, what ever you said I fully agree with you. I once again request you to go through the book "Blood and Tears" by Kutubuddin Aziz which I have already linked.

@ After reading all these books I had an impression that Pakistani politicians, Pakistan Govt and the military elements were trapped. Pakistan Govt if not at least Yahya Khan was almost ready to hand over power to Mujib and the draft arrangement was also made by Yahya Khan only problem with two points of Six Points. One is probably two currency and another is foreign policy. Sk Mujib also agreed but Indian elements did not agreed. They did not wanted any compromise, they wanted more blood, the blood of Bengalise and the blood of West Pakistani/Biharees. Which they already started (through instigation and secret orders)on the first week of March 1971.

@ Mujib was also getting all these news. He was totally handy capped. He did not wanted that the leadership to go to India. He was trying to contact with the Americans but Americans were also in dilemma. Before the election Americans were fully working in favour of Mujib but once he was elected they changed their view. Mujib was convinced that if he fled to India, he would be killed by the RAW. So, Mujib decided to surrender to Pakistan Army. For the last 2/3 days he was completely mom. The meetings were conducted by other AL leaders. He was confident that atleast he would not be killed. Once Mujib landed at Karachi airport, he said to the generalist that he has handed over the country to the army for safety. (may be this is fabricated) Mujib was expecting a call from General Rao Farman Ali and Yahya Khan till the last. Recently it reveals that till midnight Tajzuddin was in Mujib house and he was requesting Mujib to record his voice for the declaration of Independence. But Mujib said, " No ! no ! I can't do that ! that would amount to traitor and Pakistan army will get the clue to trial me". Soon on 2/4 April 1971 Dr Kamal Hussain also surrender to Pakistan Army. On interrogation, Kamal said if I donnot surrender than probably India or RAW would kill me. It may be mentioned here that Dr Kamal Hossain's wife is Sindhi origin and his wife's brother was Major in Pakistan and at that time serving in Dacca. It was through him he contacted the Pakistan Army. ------ Kalu_miah, there are many hidden things which are yet not known ?????

 

[TopCat]

Well Mr. iajdani, M_Saint Bhai is a patriot for sure and he means well, so I trust his opinions, although on many issues we have differences of opinion. For me Akmal Bhai just brings a lot of new pertinent information that I have not seen before, but I think he has too soft a corner for Pakistan for my taste. If you think my opinion is based on views from these two posters, then you have very inflated view about your own perception.

What you bring up about land reform is indeed a very interesting and central point which Pakistani elite would object to, as most leaders there including Bhutto's are from Zaminder families with extremely large land holdings and this feudal system is one of their biggest problem. Military's collusion with this feudal elite is a well known fact even today in Pakistan that is hindering the development of their democracy.

So what you are saying is that it was all the fault of political and military elite of West Pakistan and RAW and Indian intelligence branch (IB) before RAW's formation had no role with Awami Muslim League and Awami League during 1949-1971 to fund and support the development of Bengali nationalism, which laid the ground work of 1971 civil war?

RAW had no role in formation of Awami League as there were no RAW in 1949. Bengali nationalism was a threat to Pakistan as well as for India. Sheikh Mujib played his card right using India and he was a lucky chap. Sheikh wanted a greater secular bengal including Assam but 1971 spoiled his dream.

 

[CaPtAiN_pLaNeT]

RAW had no role in formation of Awami League as there were no RAW in 1949. Bengali nationalism was a threat to Pakistan as well as for India. Sheikh Mujib played his card right using India and he was a lucky chap. Sheikh wanted a greater secular bengal including Assam but 1971 spoiled his dream.

I think you are referring to this....

. Failure to get Assam included in East Pakistan in 1947 remained a source of abiding resentment in that country. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in his book, Myths of Independence wrote, "It would be wrong to think that Kashmir is the only dispute that divides India and Pakistan, though undoubtedly the most significant. One at least is nearly as important as the Kashmir dispute, that of Assam and some districts of India adjacent to East Pakistan. To these Pakistan has very good claims."

Even a pro-India leader like Sheikh Mujibur Rahman in his book, Eastern Pakistan: Its Population and Economics, observed, "Because Eastern Pakistan must have sufficient land for its expansion and because Assam has abundant forests and mineral resources, coal, petroleum etc., Eastern Pakistan must include Assam to be financially and economically strong".

 

[kalu_miah]

RAW had no role in formation of Awami League as there were no RAW in 1949. Bengali nationalism was a threat to Pakistan as well as for India. Sheikh Mujib played his card right using India and he was a lucky chap. Sheikh wanted a greater secular bengal including Assam but 1971 spoiled his dream.

RAW was formed in 1968 from Intelligence Bureau, so RAW obviously did not have a role 1949-1968, but Intelligence Bureau as its predecessor could have. And when RAW came into being under Indira in 1968, I think East Pakistan was one of its major theater of activity.

Please show some sources where it says Mujib's Bengali nationalism included Assam or any other states in North East India. Are you also saying that Mujib thought that West Bengal would join East Pakistan under Bengali nationalism or just Assam? You do realize that Assam means automatically India looses connection with all other states in North East India. So in effect you are saying that Mujib was a lucky chap, as he was thinking that he could use India to get independence and also get Assam and the other North East states as gift from India?

And from what I have seen about these North East states, each have their own culture and all of them do not like Bengali's, including Ahoms and Assamese, who have their own distinct culture. What they wanted always is independence but never to join with East Bengal.

As far as I remember, ISI was involved with North East states insurgency, not Mujib or Awami League.

 

[kalu_miah]

@ Dear kalu_miah, what ever you said I fully agree with you. I once again request you to go through the book "Blood and Tears" by Kutubuddin Aziz which I have already linked.

@ After reading all these books I had an impression that Pakistani politicians, Pakistan Govt and the military elements were trapped. Pakistan Govt if not at least Yahya Khan was almost ready to hand over power to Mujib and the draft arrangement was also made by Yahya Khan only problem with two points of Six Points. One is probably two currency and another is foreign policy. Sk Mujib also agreed by Indian elements did not agreed. They did not wanted any compromise, they wanted more blood, the blood of Bengalise and the blood of West Pakistani/Biharees. Which they already started (through instigation and secret orders)on the first week of March 1971.

@ Mujib was also getting all these news. He was totally handy capped. He did not wanted that the leadership to go to India. He was trying to contact with the Americans but Americans were also in dilemma. Before the election Americans were fully working in favour of Mujib but once he was elected they changed their view. Mujib was convinced that if he fled to India, he would be killed by the RAW. So, Mujib decided to surrender to Pakistan Army. For the last 2/3 days he was completely mom. The meetings were conducted by other AL leaders. He was confident that atleast he would not be killed atleast. Once Mujib landed at Karachi airport, he said to the generalist that he has handed over the country to the army for safety. (may be this is fabricated) Mujib was expecting a call from General Rao Farman Ali and Yahya Khan till the last. Recently it reveals that till midnight Tajzuddin was Mujib house and he was requesting Mujib to record his voice for the declaration of Independence. But Mujib said, " No ! no ! I can't do that ! that would amount to traitor and Pakistan army will get the clue to trail me". Soon on 2/4 April 1971 Dr Kamal Hussain also surrender to Pakistan Army. On interrogation, Kamal said if I donnot surrender than probably India or RAW could me. It me be mention here that Dr Kamal Hossain's wife is Sindhi origin and his wife's brother was Major in Pakistan and at that time serving in Dacca. It was through him to contact the Pakistan Army. ------ Kalu_miah, there are many hidden things which are yet not known ?????

OK, Akmal Bhai, I will definitely try to read all these books. If Mujib didn't know what was going on within his own party, who were Indian agents and who were not, then what can I say, he was not fit to run a political party. If Mujib agreed to Bhutto's proposal and some Indian agents within Awami League leadership did not want to accept like Tajuddin, all he had to do is get them arrested and put them in jail on charges of treason. But he could not do that, because he was afraid that they would divulge his secret dealings, I am guessing. If he was not himself involved with India, it would have been easy for him to detect who was involved with India and hand them over to police or Military intelligence. My guess is that he was involved all along, but tried to keep plausible deniability by using those 4 "khalifa's" to liaison with India. Essentially Mujib thought that he could use India and RAW to win election and to create disturbance to achieve his goal of autonomy from West Pakistan, just a guess, but he was playing a dangerous game. He has actually compromised the security of then Pakistan already, much before March 1971, in my opinion, by working with India in secret, through those 4 "khalifa's", and the ring leader was probably Tajuddin.

Lets work together and see if we can uncover the secrets. May be we can pitch in and bribe some RAW peons and get hold of their old classified files from those periods. I think it is absolutely vital to find out and inform the entire story to Bangladeshi public with full colorful details.

 

[jaunty]

You do realize that Assam means automatically India looses connection with all other six states in North East India. So in effect you are saying that Mujib was a lucky chap, as he was thinking that he could use India to get independence and also get Assam and the other 6 North East states as gift from India.

Post independence all of NE was Assam. The other states were formed later. I thought you knew everything about NE