Liberation War martyrs would exceed 30 lac: Mamun

[M_Saint]

If you are talking about Sharmila Bose she just took HRC report and extrapolated the number from it. She never visited Bangladesh or talked with eye witness and victims, neither did HRC commission which constructed it's report based on log book entries of PA officers.

It doesn't matter to me actually but I happened to go through these reports in detail.


*Expecting an emotional outburst of name calling with keywords malaun, hindu, hanuman etc*

So, she made claims by egging on HRC's report, right? Then what is this?

The case studies are therefore “representative” of the conflict, though not comprehensive. They were selected after discussion with several Bangladeshis with a keen interest in the war, almost all strongly “pro-liberation”, complemented by instances suggested by researching published material from all sides. They include mob violence in early March in Khulna and Chittagong, military action on March 25-26 in Dhaka University student halls and faculty residences, army attack on Shankharipara in old Dhaka on March 26, mutiny in Mymensingh, Bengali-Bihari violence in Khulna at different times, such as Bengali attacks against “Biharis” in March, “Bihari” attacks on Bengalis subsequently and Bengali “revenge” after independence, Bengali-non-Bengali violence in Chittagong and Bogra areas, rebel resistance in Tangail, mass killings by the army in Rajshahi and Mymensingh, army killing of Hindu refugees in Khulna, killing of intellectuals in Dhaka in December and “revenge” killings by the winning side after the end of the war. The compilation is ongoing.

The paper uses data collected during 2003-05 in Pakistan and Bangladesh from site visits, interviews with survivors, eye-witnesses and participants, and related material such as images and published and unpublished eyewitness accounts and memoirs (in English and Bengali).

The approach in the project, and in this paper, is “reconciliation”. This refers partly to reconciliation among people. In the absence of any institutional “truth and reconciliation” effort, participants in the 1971 conflict remain bitterly divided, in denial to a significant degree, and without “closure” in numerous instances. However, “reconciliation” also refers to the reconciliation of fact with fiction, using a non-partisan, evidence-based approach towards a conflict whose accounts are still driven by bitter emotional partisanship. They provide the basis for an analysis that challenges both the silence and the unsubstantiated rhetoric that have obscured the study of the conflict of 1971 to date.

The paper is organised in the following manner. Section III elaborates on the chronology and typology of violence in the conflict of 1971 with illustrative examples from the case studies. Section IV discusses some of the preliminary findings on the patterns that emerge. As the project is ongoing, the illustrative examples are only taken from completed parts of the case studies, and the findings must necessarily be termed preliminary until the work is completed.

Anatomy of Violence: Analysis of Civil War in East Pakistan in 1971 by Sarmila Bose « Pakistanthinktank313's Blog

 

[LaBong]

^ it doesn't matter what some random blog claims, go look up her paper.

 

[indian_jigar]

I think its useless arguing with (most) PDF Bangladeshis. Most of them want to re-unite with Pakistan and form some kind of Muslim Ummah because they are weak (and insignificant) by themselves.

In short, Bangladeshis are to Pakistanis, what Pakistanis are to Arabs. Their whole life consists of 2 lines of logic:

Islam/Muslims = Good

Everything else = Bad

Fortunately, most real life Bangladehsis I meet arent of such low intellect.

 

[Md Akmal]

*Expecting an emotional outburst of name calling with keywords malaun[/I], hindu, hanuman etc*

@ Hey LaBong, I also heard people telling Hindus as "malaun". I donnot understand the meaning. I think it is a"Arbi" word. Can you throwsome light on it. What ever may be the case, I consider you as a learned man. We know little bit "basha, basha".

 

[Md Akmal]

Valuable treasure trove of info as always, thanks. Some links please, if any, for both of the above subjects.

@ Something you can get in the history of Muslim Leaque in Banglapedia written during Ershad period.
@ About the second subjects in various articles written by Bangladeshi Army Officers like Maj Nasir, " Juddhe juddhe Bangladesh". Some lights you may get in the book, "Betrayel of East Pakistan" General Niazi. Some idea you may get in, The Way it was" written by Brigadier Z A Khan(Pakistani)

 

[kalu_miah]

Thanks for the reply. I have no doubt as to what happened. I am more than certain that Pak Army was involved in mass murder. The chained fist was used without mercy. I also have no doubt that this was systemic. This was not as a result of some lone wolf operation or breakdown in command control. This mass murder was calculated and planned. It came from the highest levels of command.

There existed and I am afraid still does exist [whether people are prepared to be honest about this is a differant matter] prejudice within the Pakistani psyche against Bengali's. My position on Bengal is very simple. I don't think it should ever have been part of Pakistan. I don't think Allama Iqbal's original speach concieved Bengal being part of Pakistan. Independant yes but not part of the west wing. Even the Lahore resolution talks in plural as in 'states' as opposed to a state.

I had a debate with a chap about this not long ago. My view is that if Bengal was included in a united Pakistan then certain things should have been implicit. Since Bengal had larger population the capital should have been in Dhaka. How can a capital be in the minority wong? The civil service and military should have been almost 53% to 47% tilt in Bengali favour.

You have capital now, you have a military now. Why was this not possible in united Pakistan. The answer was it was possible but prejudice prevented the West Pakistan to accept this reality thus everything was done to frustrate this. The reason why I asked the questions as I did was I would imagine that Bengali views on 1971 should be unambiguoes but instead from what I can see it is far from that.

I do not accept the wild figures of 3 million, or even 300,000. Perhaps 50,000 is near the mark although I suspect we will never know the exact numbers. What is strange though is that without a shred of doubt more Bengali's have been killed by Pakistan than India but India seems to be hated. I find that rather surprising.

I mean the Indian's did help you guy's in getting your Bangladesh. No offence but I don't think that Bengali's alone would have defeated Pak Army. Of course like I often point out to the Indian's the Bengali's also fought so it was a joint effort. It was the combined effort of Bengali's and Indian's that brought Lt. Gen AAK Niazi to the table. On your independance should you guy's not also give the Indian's a chance to join your celebrations?

If I may add a few words:

A Separate country of East Bengal with North East states included would make it much more viable. If Pakistan capital was in Dhaka, history could be different, but I doubt West Pakistan would ever accept that.

I wonder why there was planned mass murder, was it to eliminate Indian agents or just to teach a lesson to "treasonous" and "traitor" Bengali's? Or was it both?

Racism has always been a factor and it still is and sometimes it goes both ways. But as I like to say it is a common human condition, hard to avoid, specially among economically backward underdeveloped people.

India helped us to get what they want, a broken Pakistan, for their own geo-strategic interest. Initially Bangladeshi's were quite grateful, but much of the good feeling evaporated when we experienced Farakka and water terrorism of India and its constant internal interference in our politics, using RAW and Awami League.

It is a mistake to think that Bangladeshi's have forgotten or forgiven 1971 incident. Bangladeshi's here are being more hostile towards India, compared to Pakistan, for several reasons:

- people are being polite, after all this is a Pakistan forum, and all of us are guest here, where as Pakistani's are host
- Indian forums I think do not show as much open minded attitude as is shown here
- Some suspect that they are involved in killing Zia who was a very popular leader, and also in the recent massacre of Bangladesh Army officers in BDR mutiny in 2009
- Pakistan is no longer Bangladesh neighbor and a lack of common border means no lingering issues remain between the two people, except for the closure of the past, according to some, on the other hand India is the major neighbor on almost 3 sides with a whole bunch of ongoing issues, water sharing, balance of trade, border killings etc.
- the issue of Muslim solidarity does come up, as in the community of Muslim nations, Bengalis being the 2nd largest ethnic group after Arabs, I think there is a desire to move on from what happened in the past, for the greater interest of the Muslim world
- India interferes in Bangladesh politics using RAW assets and its agent Awami League, my guess is for two reasons, it wants to keep Bangladesh destabilized and it wants to use Bangladesh govt. to go after North East state rebels to ensure long term security of that area
- India trained and funded Chakma insurgents in Bangladesh

Having said all that, I think Bangladeshi's should acknowledge India's help during refugee crisis of 1971 and its intervention to defeat Pakistan Army. Credit should be given where it is due, regardless of their past and present role of manipulating our politics with funding and support of Awami League, since from March 25 onward, after Operation Search light started, East Pakistan population had finally made up their mind to secede.

Again these are my personal opinion and it may not match with many Bangladeshi's views here in PDF or elsewhere.

 

[monitor]

^^^ We could have live in one country if the six point demand were implemented for east Pakistan . west Pakistani leadership feared that would undermine the integrity of Pakistan but eventually a bloody civil war/liberation war sacrificing life and property break the Pakistan . i think sheik mujib emphasizing six point demand is also good for rest of Pakistan made the west Pakistani leadership more concern about the six point demand .

We acknowledge their contribution but it was not that with out their help we could not gain our independence if that were the
only option for Banglaees .

 

[K-Xeroid]

If I may add a few words:

If Pakistan capital was in Dhaka, history could be different, but I doubt West Pakistan would ever accept that.

Accepted ! If that would be in my hands, but its immpossible now, current condition is, We both have black sheeps inside us that would even don't support our combine security block. Bangladesh's future is related with Bay of Bengal but seems like your nieghbours have already marked you as threat . Let China have a permenant base inside your country . Why not U.S? its cuz of their administration is highly effected of Indian lobby which will put disasterous impact on you.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

feeling same about PDF..... so better stick to the topic..... aren't you guys trying finger in every issue of India..... we are part of Liberation war.....

Yes we do have bharat ratshit variety like u on PDF... So why dont u sod off to tht crappy forum of urs... full of abusive,death celebrating lowlives..

 

[Md Akmal]

I wonder why there was planned mass murder, was it to eliminate Indian agents or just to teach a lesson to "treasonous" and "traitor" Bengali's? Or was it both?

@ They wanted to teach lesson to the Bengali's.

@ The West Pakistani's always under-estimated the Bengali people. On the other hand we thought that we are much more educated than them.

@ My personal experience once I was studying at Noshera and Rawalpindi, they used to tease me like this, "Bangali babu aiya, morgi churake layia, murgina mara punja, Bangali babu bangia ganja".

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

@ They wanted to teach lesson to the Bengali's.

@ The West Pakistani's always under-estimated the Bengali people. On the other hand we thought that we are much more educated than them.

@ My personal experience once I was studying at Noshera and Rawalpindi, they used to tease me like this, "Bangali babu aiya, morgi churake layia, murgina mara punja, Bangali babu bangia ganja".

That happens to kids of all ethnicities in school... pashtuns get teased as khan sahab.... Punjabis as Chr sahab.... baluch as sardar sahab.... thts what kids do!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

*
@Kalu miah "If Pakistan capital was in Dhaka, history could be different, but I doubt West Pakistan would ever accept that".

May view is that Bengali's had absolute right to certain things, first the capital should have been in Dhaka. Second by mid sixties the military should have been at least 50-50. Thirdly Bengali should have been the national language.

There are certain facts on the ground that have to be accepted. However the blunt truth was that Pakistan would never accept [as you said] these ground realities. They would never accept them now. Therefore in 1947 within the Pakistan DNA was a inherent flaw that would explode at sometime if it was not addressed.

Had the Bengali's continued to accepted their inferior status the status quo would have continued but as soon as they challanged the injustice at the heart of Pakistani establishment we know what happened. West Pak was not prepared to move an inch and instead chose to reply with force. Justified demands weere met with chained fist.

@kalu miah ]"Wonder why there was planned mass murder, was it to eliminate Indian agents or just to teach a lesson to "treasonous" and "traitor" Bengali's? Or was it both?"

I suspect it was to teach a lesson under the guise of "eliminating Indian Agent's". The method employed is not the way you sort out the chaff from the wheat. You don't use a hammer or a flamethrower do you? The method employed was policy and that policy reflected Islambad's thinking.

Given these contradictory impulses that were there at the start in the very DNA of Pakistan in 1947. 1965 should therefore not be a surprise. Even with all things equal you will not find another country with such a large population within two disparate geographic zones anywhere in the world. Just read the highlighted text of the Lahore Resolution 1940.

" Resolved that it is the considered view of this Session of the All-India Muslim League that no constitutional plan would be workable in this country or acceptable to the Muslims unless it is designed on the following basic principles, viz., that geographically contiguous units’ are demarcated into regions which should be constituted, with such territorial readjustments as may be necessary that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in the North Western and Eastern Zones of (British) India should be grouped to constitute Independent States in which the constituent units should be autonomous and sovereign".

Lahore Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you can see how the resolution talks of "contiguous units" and "groups". It is also pretty clear when it states " Independent States". The usage is of plural as in "states" and not singular. Therefore there was a genetic flaw in existance from the begining. I only wish people in 1947 had gone for two independant states Pakistan [west majority area] and Bangladesh[east majority wing].

It would have saved lives and all the horrible events of 1965. The ignominy of defeat on the Pakistan Army.would not have happened. Although frankly once India came to the aid of the Bengali's in 1965 there was only going to be one outcome - Pakistani defeat. PA was already pinned down and consumed by keeping the insurection in control. Bengal already was "danger zone" for PA soldiers and once India joined in with Bengali Mukti Bahini the result was a foregone conclusion.

And yes, I openly acknowledge that the Bengali's had a equal hand with Indian's in PA defeat. You guy's need to remind the indian's of that. When they take dig at us they overlook this factor.

 

[PlanetSoldier]

Chalo yaar kam az kam ye figure 30million se 30 lakh per tou aai 40 saal mein, ab 40 saal aur guzrain tou ye 30 hazar per bhi aa jai gi.

Thanks God atleast this figure come down from 30 millions to 30 lacs in 40 years, now after 40 years it will come further down to 30 thousands.

P.S the correct figure is 14-18 thousands(including Biharis & Bengalis killed by mutki terrorists).

You are fortunate that your own army didn't jump on you as beasts, so you could give such comfortable statement without giving a thought. But I need to tell you one thing that really surprised me all the time that is if countrymen feel for each other, share the pain no power can break them. For Pakistan exactly the opposite thing happened, when its eastern people were being slaughtered on a wholesale rate, the western people didn't stand against that. They thought...well our army is taking care of those dogs (just few days ago one said in this tone on PDF) and soon it'll be fine. But if these people from west stood against the genocide, caused havoc in state machinery, ran to east and stood with the oppressed ones, felt the same pain....the result could have been different. When whole the world stood against this genocide, surprisingly west Pakistani people did nothing, that has one meaning...it's a colony, why bother, army is enough. Eastern people were never compatriot to western people.

However, you as a west Pakistani wasn't of persecuted class, so stop preaching such correct figure. Continuing support of army persecution on own people might in the long run cause more divide. Army is to defend country from external enemy, not to use against own people, not to use them to kill university students who would lead the nation in future.

 

[Md Akmal]

@ Atanz, why you are blaming your grand father/father. The Indian politics turned into different direction on the eve of Second World War. It again changed once a mutiny took place on British Indian Navy/Army on the question of Trial of "Azad Hind Fouz". Than again once riot started between the Hindus/Sikh and Muslims in Punjab, Bengal and Bihar. So, I don not know where your "Lahore Resolution" went.

@ Even if I take your point that India should have been divided into three instead of two. Where was the guarantee that 3rd independent State would survive ?(East Bengal) Had it been than our fate would have been like Hyderabad. My dear friend there more than 527 independent Princely states on the eve of partition. Where they have gone ?

@ You are talking that by mid 60's Pakistan army should have been 50/50 in representation. Good ! Good !. But it was not that easy. During the British times Bengalese representation in British Army was very negligence due to the mutiny of 1857. On the other hand Punjab and Pathans were dominating in the British Indian armies. Who says Bengali representation was not there in Pakistan Army ? It was there, may not be in fighting arms but in supporting arms and in the Navy. Moreso, Bengali's were reluctant to join in the defense forces. About the ratio of deployment of existing forces in both East and West. " Time buhat kam tha". India never allowed Pakistan to think. Pakistan's defence was weak from the very beginning. Moreso, military was also much involved in civil affairs.

@ How come you want to place Dacca as Capital ? It would been much more vulnerable. Dacca was made as second capital.Many efforts were taken by Ayub but failed. Even marriages between two wings were encouraged.

@ The main problem that during the initial days of Pakistan most of the Central political leaders were refugee and had no constituency either in West Pakistan and in East Pakistan. Hence they were afraid of general election.

 

[clmeta]

Are you an Idiot? The army was armed. They killed civilians. You don't have to be superman to kill unarmed civilians.

Where?
Can you site any credible, objective sources?

And right, Yahya Gave a quota to the army to kill 3 million Bengali.

If you believe that then you must also believe that Pakistani soldiers are super men since only 40k killed 3 million in 6 months.
So you better check under your bed every night to make sure supermen Pakistani army is not there