Liberation War martyrs would exceed 30 lac: Mamun

[Indus Pakistan]

\^
I just don't know what to say .... frankly. The only thing I can say is if you paddle any harder your in danger of mutating into more of a Pakistani than I am. This reminds me of what another member said in these forums, half of Pakistan is full of wannabe Arab's and half of Bangladesh is full of wannabe Pakistani's.

Bizzare !!!

Anyway before I evict myself from here do consider Allama Iqbal widely regarded as the inspiration behind Pakistan. In his conceptuel speach at Allahabad -

"I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sind and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single State. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated North-West Indian Muslim State appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of North-West India".

Allahabad Address - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see Bengal in there? Do you? This might very well be academic but do think about the irony here. Contrary to the Allama's blueprint Bengal was festooned with Pakistan. Well no worries, millions of Bengali's seemed to have agreed with the Allama and made sure by default that in 1971 Pakistan would revert to it's original blueprint.

Frankly I am glad we don't have Bengal in Pakistan. The only reason why I even bothered to broach this subject is because I am tired of Indian's bringing up the 1971 defeat that you guy's had a hand in. Bengali's grabbed us from the back while the Indian's punched us is ignored by the Indian's. I guess defeat is a defeat at the end of the day.


**
Word of advice: You should shift your capital to another country because I believe Dhaka is "vulnerable".

 

[TopCat]

3500 graveyard for freedom fighter in India already identified and will be brought back home. They are in India.

Lots of people died my friends...

 

[clmeta]

Relax dude. Looks like talk of 1971 is bringing the worst out of you. Bangladesh was liberated because of the victory of good over the evil.

Yes we do have bharat ratshit variety like u on PDF... So why dont u sod off to tht crappy forum of urs... full of abusive,death celebrating lowlives..

 

[kalu_miah]

^^^ We could have live in one country if the six point demand were implemented for east Pakistan . west Pakistani leadership feared that would undermine the integrity of Pakistan but eventually a bloody civil war/liberation war sacrificing life and property break the Pakistan . i think sheik mujib emphasizing six point demand is also good for rest of Pakistan made the west Pakistani leadership more concern about the six point demand .

We acknowledge their contribution but it was not that with out their help we could not gain our independence if that were the
only option for Banglaees .

Many suspect that the six point demand was drawn up by RAW, and its source and origin is still mysterious:
Six point movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

its origin still remains unclear and shrouded in mystery

Yes, I agree, once East Pakistan population had been politically polarized with Bengali nationalism and won the election, West Pakistan should have accepted all terms and election results to avoid break-up of the country. Using some other methods was obviously a mistake, as can be seen from the results. It is easy to say these things now, because we have hindsight. But this leadership problem in Pakistan was there from the beginning, which is why I say 1947 partition was a mistake. Muslim leadership was not ready to get the best deal at that point and got a disastrous landmass which was problematic to begin with. Partition could happen later peacefully and in a more organized way, when Muslims have progressed and had better leadership material.

I am glad that you agree about acknowledging India's help, we should not deny facts and truths, it reduces our credibility.

Now without India's help or interference, in advancing its own geopolitical interest, East Pakistan, it is my assumption, would never have a polarizing Bengali nationalism movement, would never initiate a Bihari massacre in 1971, with infiltrated Indian special forces as some allege, as a provocation or spark to ignite the civil war, by creating a mass crackdown Operation Searchlight by Pakistan Army. The method used was first a forest was deprived of water so it can become dry and ready, and then a spark was provided to light the forest fire and of course population of East and West Pakistan both beautifully played along with this plan and Soviet Union also played a key role in neutralizing US role.

So you have to see the totality of the picture, you cannot just say that without India's role we would be independent, but lets say India did not help at all, after it engineered the whole situation and sparked the civil war, then it would have been a very long drawn out war, like it happened in Afghanistan (1979-1989), the country would have been destroyed, but we would have a much more seasoned and battle hardened population like Vietnam, who can tell the enemy from a friend and change sides with the need of time.

What we have now is a spoon fed clueless bunch of people who cannot even tell a friend from a foe.

 

[kalu_miah]

Accepted ! If that would be in my hands, but its immpossible now, current condition is, We both have black sheeps inside us that would even don't support our combine security block. Bangladesh's future is related with Bay of Bengal but seems like your nieghbours have already marked you as threat . Let China have a permenant base inside your country . Why not U.S? its cuz of their administration is highly effected of Indian lobby which will put disasterous impact on you.

Good points, I was only talking about hypothetical situation as that question was raised by Atanz.

I believe that whatever Allah (SWT) does, it is for all of our well being and it is the best outcome, we should accept that as a fact and move on. We are in Bay of Bengal and we have Indian "mainland" on one side, North East states on two sides and a small border with Myanmar, while Indian "mainland" is playing the imperial overlord in North East states and is balancing China's heavy influence in Myanmar. We are friendly with both US and China, but at this moment a US base or refueling/berthing station seems more likely than Chinese one, because of our interest in ASEAN based USA pivot plan. But we will not burn our bridges with China, as in the end, about 20-50 years time frame, China will reign supreme in this region and US will be kicked out. That is kind of my projection.

But first thing first, like you said, we need to kick Indian agent Awami League out of power and make them irrelevant as a permanent opposition and fade them out eventually. Bangladesh should not have any enemy Indian agent politicians, we should only have politicians that fight for interest of Bangladesh, not another foreign country and their interest.

In a way Pakistani's are lot more patriotic in that respect (no Indian agent problem there) and I wish you guys well, so you can have a better democratic future and also a better regional future in your immediate neighborhood.

 

[kalu_miah]

@ They wanted to teach lesson to the Bengali's.

@ The West Pakistani's always under-estimated the Bengali people. On the other hand we thought that we are much more educated than them.

@ My personal experience once I was studying at Noshera and Rawalpindi, they used to tease me like this, "Bangali babu aiya, morgi churake layia, murgina mara punja, Bangali babu bangia ganja".

As I said earlier, racism is a common human condition, look at what the Burmese are doing to Rohingya. We are also racist too, but I will not go into it, as it is not a pleasant subject.

Geopolitical interest is something we have to always keep in mind, before getting emotional about accusations of racism. Racism reduces with passage of time so things become workable. It is not a permanent condition.

Consider the situation of Muslims today, there is so much racism between Arabs-Turks, Turks-Kurds, Arabs-South-Asians, Kyrgyz-Uzbek, Arabs-Sub-saharan-Africans etc. Does that mean we should not try for feeling of increased solidarity among Muslims? I think we should, because it is in our collective self-interest and also it is mandated by Islam.

 

[kalu_miah]

*
@Kalu miah "If Pakistan capital was in Dhaka, history could be different, but I doubt West Pakistan would ever accept that".

May view is that Bengali's had absolute right to certain things, first the capital should have been in Dhaka. Second by mid sixties the military should have been at least 50-50. Thirdly Bengali should have been the national language.

There are certain facts on the ground that have to be accepted. However the blunt truth was that Pakistan would never accept [as you said] these ground realities. They would never accept them now. Therefore in 1947 within the Pakistan DNA was a inherent flaw that would explode at sometime if it was not addressed.

Had the Bengali's continued to accepted their inferior status the status quo would have continued but as soon as they challanged the injustice at the heart of Pakistani establishment we know what happened. West Pak was not prepared to move an inch and instead chose to reply with force. Justified demands weere met with chained fist.

@kalu miah ]"Wonder why there was planned mass murder, was it to eliminate Indian agents or just to teach a lesson to "treasonous" and "traitor" Bengali's? Or was it both?"

I suspect it was to teach a lesson under the guise of "eliminating Indian Agent's". The method employed is not the way you sort out the chaff from the wheat. You don't use a hammer or a flamethrower do you? The method employed was policy and that policy reflected Islambad's thinking.

Given these contradictory impulses that were there at the start in the very DNA of Pakistan in 1947. 1965 should therefore not be a surprise. Even with all things equal you will not find another country with such a large population within two disparate geographic zones anywhere in the world. Just read the highlighted text of the Lahore Resolution 1940.

" Resolved that it is the considered view of this Session of the All-India Muslim League that no constitutional plan would be workable in this country or acceptable to the Muslims unless it is designed on the following basic principles, viz., that geographically contiguous units’ are demarcated into regions which should be constituted, with such territorial readjustments as may be necessary that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in the North Western and Eastern Zones of (British) India should be grouped to constitute Independent States in which the constituent units should be autonomous and sovereign".

Lahore Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you can see how the resolution talks of "contiguous units" and "groups". It is also pretty clear when it states " Independent States". The usage is of plural as in "states" and not singular. Therefore there was a genetic flaw in existance from the begining. I only wish people in 1947 had gone for two independant states Pakistan [west majority area] and Bangladesh[east majority wing].

It would have saved lives and all the horrible events of 1965. The ignominy of defeat on the Pakistan Army.would not have happened. Although frankly once India came to the aid of the Bengali's in 1965 there was only going to be one outcome - Pakistani defeat. PA was already pinned down and consumed by keeping the insurection in control. Bengal already was "danger zone" for PA soldiers and once India joined in with Bengali Mukti Bahini the result was a foregone conclusion.

And yes, I openly acknowledge that the Bengali's had a equal hand with Indian's in PA defeat. You guy's need to remind the indian's of that. When they take dig at us they overlook this factor.

It is possible that West Pakistan would never accept East Pakistan's demand, but my assumption is that our population, both in East and West were not ready for partition in 1947, that is why they accepted an unworkable problematic landmass (2 wings separated by 1200 miles). That situation, the poverty of leadership, did not change in 2-3 decades, so inevitably 1971 happened. It is because of this poverty of leadership Pakistan and Bangladesh both are still fraught with problems.

Pakistan together with Kashmir and Bangladesh together with North East states, a three country solution was better in my opinion. I think it was one of proposals before 1947.

About the issue of defeat by PA Army, the first thing you should think about is:

- hearts and minds
- hearts and minds
- hearts and minds

If you loose the hearts and minds of the population, you have already lost the war, unless you can eliminate the population as a feasible option. This has happened mainly at the hand of Indian agent Awami (Muslim) League from 1949-1971, as Akmal Bhai stated and this was not effectively countered by the ruling class at the time. A military defeat is just a matter of time, because you are essentially fighting insurgency against the entire population in a hostile ground. In case of 1971, you also had logistics problem, which you do not have in Baluchistan and KPK, but the lessons should be remembered. Repression can work temporarily if the population is smaller and logistics is much better like in case of Baluchistan, but repression is not an alternative to winning back the hearts and minds.

 

[M_Saint]

Many suspect that the six point demand was drawn up by RAW, and its source and origin is still mysterious:
Six point movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Yes, I agree, once East Pakistan population had been politically polarized with Bengali nationalism and won the election, West Pakistan should have accepted all terms and election results to avoid break-up of the country. Using some other methods was obviously a mistake, as can be seen from the results. It is easy to say these things now, because we have hindsight. But this leadership problem in Pakistan was there from the beginning, which is why I say 1947 partition was a mistake. Muslim leadership was not ready to get the best deal at that point and got a disastrous landmass which was problematic to begin with. Partition could happen later peacefully and in a more organized way, when Muslims have progressed and had better leadership material.

I am glad that you agree about acknowledging India's help, we should not deny facts and truths, it reduces our credibility.

Now without India's help or interference, in advancing its own geopolitical interest, East Pakistan, it is my assumption, would never have a polarizing Bengali nationalism movement, would never initiate a Bihari massacre in 1971, with infiltrated Indian special forces as some allege, as a provocation or spark to ignite the civil war, by creating a mass crackdown Operation Searchlight by Pakistan Army. The method used was first a forest was deprived of water so it can become dry and ready, and then a spark was provided to light the forest fire and of course population of East and West Pakistan both beautifully played along with this plan and Soviet Union also played a key role in neutralizing US role.

So you have to see the totality of the picture, you cannot just say that without India's role we would be independent, but lets say India did not help at all, after it engineered the whole situation and sparked the civil war, then it would have been a very long drawn out war, like it happened in Afghanistan (1979-1989), the country would have been destroyed, but we would have a much more seasoned and battle hardened population like Vietnam, who can tell the enemy from a friend and change sides with the need of time.

What we have now is a spoon fed clueless bunch of people who cannot even tell a friend from a foe.

Many suspect that the six point demand was drawn up by RAW, and its source and origin is still mysterious:
Six point movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

OK, six point was designed by CIA through its agents employed in 'Central Bank' and IB (RAW's Pre-Organization) took the lead to put masala on it and RAW took it over after its formal creation at 1968. I think it would solve your mystery now. BTW, Six prominent intelligent organizations had converged to break PAK up (Learned from a knowledgeable righteous man) that you never heard off, I guess.

 

[M_Saint]

As I said earlier, racism is a common human condition, look at what the Burmese are doing to Rohingya. We are also racist too, but I will not go into it, as it is not a pleasant subject.

Geopolitical interest is something we have to always keep in mind, before getting emotional about accusations of racism. Racism reduces with passage of time so things become workable. It is not a permanent condition.

Consider the situation of Muslims today, there is so much racism between Arabs-Turks, Turks-Kurds, Arabs-South-Asians, Kyrgyz-Uzbek, Arabs-Sub-saharan-Africans etc. Does that mean we should not try for feeling of increased solidarity among Muslims? I think we should, because it is in our collective self-interest and also it is mandated by Islam.

Very good post, indeed. Willing to take it further on how workable condition gets exploited by vested interest pursuer but time's brevity is restraining me. Though the bottom line of the break up PAK is 'Geographic distance', lessons need to be learned on sub-ordinated issues as well to thwart any future disaster of the magnitude of the breakup of a country.

 

[Maira La]

As I said earlier, racism is a common human condition, look at what the Burmese are doing to Rohingya. We are also racist too, but I will not go into it, as it is not a pleasant subject.

Yes, and that's because different races evolved separately!

Look at the historical track record of these four races: Northern Europeans, Russians, Japanese and Chinese. They've consistently been at or near the top in terms of wealth and military prowess, for most of human history.

I wouldn't go as far as claiming their overall intelligence is higher, because the concept of intelligence encompasses numerous different faculties of the brain, but I'd say they're more adaptable and resourceful than other races.

But there's hope for us too! When multiple races come into contact with each other, in the long run, the weak ones are either obliterated (worst case), assimilated (starting with overt or covert enslavement) or evolve to catch up (circumstances weed out the less adaptable individuals).

Anyways, the point is, whether you like it or not, racism is going to exist as long as some races are doing better than the rest. And btw, it's all personal hypotheses based on my limited knowledge and observation.

 

[Skies]

.........racism is going to exist as long as some races are doing better than the rest.[/B]

Bangladeshis have higher IQ than Indians and PK's IQ and BD's IQ are at the same level.

Source: IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kalu_miah]

Just came back from a family get together and I raised this issue of 1971 among some older Bangladeshi gentlemen, who are in 70's and 80's now. The consensus was that before the crackdown of Operation Search-light on the night of 25th March, most people in East Pakistan did not have much enthusiasm for independence as was being consistently promoted by Mujib and Awami League. But that night and subsequent killings in Dhaka was the turning point:
Operation Searchlight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2nd point that was raised was this that Bhutto came to Dhaka to meet Mujib right before 25th March, I guess to make some kind of compromise deal, but Mujib was adamant about taking over power as Prime Minister, since the majority seats were won by Awami League in 1970 election. So it is alleged that Bhutto, along with top political leaders in West Pakistan made a decision to break free from East Pakistan, instead of going under Bengali rule. So, the military crackdown in Dhaka was authorized by Bhutto in the lead, probably in consultation with other leaders in West Pakistan and Yahya Khan was assigned with the task to execute it. So in effect what this means is that West Pakistan took advantage of its rule over East Pakistan while it could under military rule but when it came time for the Bengali to return the favor after 1970 election, they got cold feet and got independent instead, while making it look like it was East Pakistan who betrayed and seceded from the country. This was done by a ghastly military crackdown and a resulting civil war where Bengali Hindu's and Bihari/Hindustani Muslims bore the brunt. It is an allegation, I am not sure how plausible this idea is, but I am just throwing it out there to see people's reaction and comments. I came across this idea before, but forgot about it, tonight one of the gentlemen reminded me of it.

The other thing people agreed upon is that it is possible that about 50,000-100,000 Bengali's lost their lives, majority of whom were probably Hindu's, while the casualty figure for Bihari/Hindustani Muslims could be as high as 200,000-300,000. 90% of the refugee's who took shelter in India were Hindu Bengali's. One of the older gentlemen did witness a Hindu household near our home being burnt and people were killed there by a Pakistan Army operation. Again these total figures are all conjectures, but what it highlights is the fact that both Hamoodur Rahman report and Sarmila Bose's book underestimates Bihari/Hindustani Muslims death figure. So either way, we need a new investigation under foreign funding and management to find out a more accurate casualty figure from all sides with names, dates and places.
Hamoodur Rahman Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dead Reckoning: Memories of the 1971 Bangladesh War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sarmila Bose - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another interesting information that came out is that Wali Khan, son of Ghaffar Khan:
Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Khan Abdul Wali Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
made an interesting comment after Jinnah's speech stating that Urdu should be made the state language. He said that West Pakistani's should learn Bengali as a second language and East Pakistani's should learn Urdu as a 2nd language, otherwise the country would break up. Have anyone else heard anything about this comment?

Also the older gentlemen (none had ever participated in politics in Bangladesh) are saying that Awami League is increasingly getting painted in the public eye as Indian agent, a party of crass opportunist thugs and will go down for sure in next election. In Tritio Matra (Third Dimension) a Bangladeshi TV talk show, two senior former Awami League leaders came and expressed their frustration about current condition of Awami League. My comment was that they were duped from the start, without understanding the big picture.

 

[CaPtAiN_pLaNeT]

Kalu_Miah your assessment seems logical but bihari death figure that you put here seems really high and bengali casualty figure is low.

Problem with BAL that seems to me is that there are lots of internal division in it after lots of senior BAL politicians were not given any minister post due to their siding with the caretaker government and which leads Hassina to select many less experienced persons as minister and some mysterious and controversial figure as adviser those who promoted all the disastrous decisions that has been taken by this government so far.

Most interesting thing is the yesterday's comment by PM Hassina when she said apart from her sister and their 5 children she has no family member and relatives despite lots of 1st cousin of PM Hassina is still alive. I think she still did not forgive Shaikh Selim for confessing the fact to the military in the interrogation cell that PM Hassina had knowledge of the people burnt in the bus which was widely uploaded at youtube. She this time did not give any position to Shaikh Selim too.

BNP is also facing lots of internal problem mostly due to the aftermath affect of care taker government and turning of Tareque Zia as a controversial figure.

 

[kalu_miah]

Yes, and that's because different races evolved separately!

Look at the historical track record of these four races: Northern Europeans, Russians, Japanese and Chinese. They've consistently been at or near the top in terms of wealth and military prowess, for most of human history.

I wouldn't go as far as claiming their overall intelligence is higher, because the concept of intelligence encompasses numerous different faculties of the brain, but I'd say they're more adaptable and resourceful than other races.

But there's hope for us too! When multiple races come into contact with each other, in the long run, the weak ones are either obliterated (worst case), assimilated (starting with overt or covert enslavement) or evolve to catch up (circumstances weed out the less adaptable individuals).

Anyways, the point is, whether you like it or not, racism is going to exist as long as some races are doing better than the rest. And btw, it's all personal hypotheses based on my limited knowledge and observation.

For my comprehensive view on this issue please read these posts:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-order-road-map-future-8.html#post2758071
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-order-road-map-future-8.html#post2772238
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...orld-order-road-map-future-8.html#post2772275

I pretty much agree with what you are saying. Mixed races have better intelligence in my opinion and how well we do depends on how all we can play geopolitics to further our interest. When entire human population become mixed, since world is getting increasingly mobile and interconnected moving away from its former isolated state, racism will disappear forever.

Islam and Muslims played a great role in race mixing, as Arabs initially and Turkics and Turko-Mongols later mixed with local population, creating a genetic link common among all Muslim communities of the world, specially among the upper echelons of these societies. Muslims, as they marry among different races of Muslims or other races, will probably continue this tradition of race mixing, which I believe is a service to humanity, because of above reason.

 

[kalu_miah]

Kalu_Miah your assessment seems logical but bihari death figure that you put here seems really high and bengali casualty figure is low.

Its possible that what you are saying is correct, I am not claiming that what I said is true as they are all possible figures quoted by different people at different times in this forum. That is why I support a completely new much more comprehensive investigation to uncover the true death figures from all sides, Bengali Hindu, Bengali Muslim, Bihari/Hindustani Muslims, West Pakistani Muslims, combatants and non-combatants, as well as accurate number of rape and other atrocities. Our future generation deserves a more accurate historical account of what took place, who were the master minds who engineered this civil war (IB of India, RAW etc. or PPP/ISI ?) and who were the foot soldiers.