Liberation War martyrs would exceed 30 lac: Mamun

[Indus Pakistan]

@ If I have a soft corner for Pakistan then definitely it is for our very existence. We must have always a cordial relation with Pakistan even beyond that for the very existence of our country. If today Pakistan is broken than be sure in the half decade the fate of Bangladesh will be either like Hydrabad or even if we existent it will be like Bhutan.

@ For the last 40 years or so we had been hearing all the one sided propaganda's of Awami Leaque and India.

@ It is true that Pakistan had exploited us in many aspects for the last 24 years but the way India and AL says there is hardly any truth on it.

@ The problem was once in 1947 once Bengal became the part of Pakistan, it was no match with the other parts of Pakistan. All the military installations were located at various parts of Pakistan. These were mainly on the Afghan side of the border like Noshera, Waziristan, Chirat, Abbotabad, Rawalpindi and others. They had good number of military strength. Most of them were in the British Indian Army. Where we had no such installations other than some abandoned airfields scattered through out Bangladesh. For your information in 1947 in East Pakistan we had only one skeleton Divisional HQ located at old High Court building, one Combined Military Hospital (CMH) at Dacca Medical College and one yes only one Punjab Regiment. With this one Punjab Regiment along with the scouts of Fuzlul Kader Chow we marched to Rangamati and brought down the flags of Congress and flags of India and brought it under our dominion. In those days we had not a single Jute Mills. There were no Head maters, no Principals, no Darogas, no DC'c, no EP's, all went to India. Can you think in those days we had not a single CSP officer. So comparing East Bengal with other provinces of Pakistan was useless. By 70's the Bengali CSP officers came up at per West Pakistani CSP officers. Even the standard of Bengali CSP officers were better. Soon they started dominating in the foreign services. Never belief on the statical figures of Awami Intellectuals.

Good points there. Just would like to clarify that Nowshera, Abottabad, Kohat etc are in Pakistan and not on the Afghan side of the border. Lot of these are either in Pashtun dominated Khyber Paktunkhwa province or the Potohar region of Punjab. There are of course historical reasons for this. During the British Raj the tribes on the Afghan border [just like today] were always fighting and this area had some of the largest British Army bases in South Asia.

I would not worry about Pakistan, despite what you hear it is highly improbable that Pakistan will disintegrate. Present Pakistan is a single block contigous state. Punjab is almost 50% of the population. Pashtun and Punjabi are very integrated now. Pashtun form significant portion of the military.Sindh now has too many people from other provinces [ Karachi now has more Pashtun then any other city in the world and even the Afghan's number in millions ] so I can't see any problems there.

Balochistan has problems but that province only has 10 milion people with only 4 million being ethnic Baloch. Millions of Baloch over the centuries settled in adjacent Sindh or Punjab. Even if you assume 50% Baloch are hell bent on trouble that would be 2 million people in a nation of 180 million. That is slightly over 1% of Pak population.

Compare that to Bengal which had 53% of the population and was 1,200 miles away with not so friendly India in between. So I doubt if 1971 is going to ever repeat itself.

Finally just would like to point out that Lt. Gen. A.K Niazi was Pashtun and Yahya Khan was a Kizilbash of Persian background. Zulfikhar Bhutto was Sindhi of course. I believe most of the army units involved in operation Searchlight were Punjabi with some Pashtun [Frontier Force] and Baloch thrown in. I doubt if these same units would have been quite as ferocious if they were asked to do the same thing in the West wing.

 

[Md Akmal]

@ Atanz, "on the Afghan side of border" does not necessarily mean inside Afghan ?????? Moreso, in many of these places I was physically brought up.

 

[M_Saint]

I will see the video later and then comment on it. West Pakistani ruling elites greed was definitely one explanation and one of the reason, but that goes for East Pakistan political elites greed also, mainly those of RAWami League. But I am not sure what your comment is about, 1971 civil war that split off Pakistan? My comments you quoted is about a fresh investigation to find the exact death figure, as well as the people behind the event that killed those people, which includes people in East and West Pakistan, as well as leaders in India and their intelligence agents who worked for them.

Partition fueled by some Islamists? Islamist leader like Moududi were against Partition. It was more secular leaders like Jinnah heading Muslim league that went for Partition.

Kalu Bhai, please remember the following names like Najam Sethi, Pervaiz Hoodbouy, Altaf Hussein, Assad Durrani and Asma Jahangir for future reference as the symbol of traitors, whose sole motives are to defame PAK defenders, sow Fitna and help disintegrating it.

 

[M_Saint]

@ I think this great iajdani and East Watch talks something which has no reality on ground.

@ Sk Mujib had a wider vision means greater Bengal but not Assam.

@ I remember in 1971 the students of Dacca University paraded the Dacca street with dammy rifle on 23 March 1971 wearing a "Nehru" cap. What does it indicates ? Does it has any meaning ?????

@ @ I think this great iajdani and East Watch talks something which has no reality on ground.?????

Both of these clowns would amuse you by Flip-Flopping to an extent that you would feel comedy show here is funnier than the following add,

 

[kalu_miah]

Well, there were few threads which you probably missed as you joined PDF recently where we discussed pre partition and post partition history.

Just give you few hints.

1) Muslim League and Congress elitist political parties in the early 20th century which never represented the peasantry society of erstwhile Bengal. Muslim League was the party of Nawabs and Congress was the party of Jamindar.

2) Fazlul Haque brought the politics within the reach of peasant class through Krishak Proja party.

3) Communist parties / Left leaning parties also worked along.

4) Fazlul haque did not have mass support from Hindu community which he deserved most.

5) In the Bengal Assembly Fazlul Haque secured more seat than Muslim Leaque.

6) Congress secured maximum seat but did not have enough to form government.

7) Fazlul Haque seeked help from Congress instead of Muslim League to form the government.

8) Congress declined, seeing him as Muslim.

9) Muslim League capitalized the situation and extended support to Fazlul Haque who formed the government.

10) Later as the all India Muslim League got the momentum, Fazlul Haque joined Muslim League.

11) Fazlul Haque supported Lahore proposal with a precondition that Bengal will never be divided. Pakistan or No Pakistan.

12) After the Fazlul Haque Sohrawardy took the charge of Muslim League of Bengal and became the Chief Minister.

13) Sohrawardy had the same view of Fazlul Haque of not dividing Bengal.

14) After the riots of Calcutta, it became obvious that Bengal will get divided.

15) Sohrawardy and Sarat Bose of Congress made the last minute effort to keep Bengal United tried for a United Secular Bengal.

16) Jinnah supported the move.

17) Bengal Muslim League (Hawkish faction) of Nazimuddin vehemently opposed the idea of Secular Independent Bengal.

18) Non Bengali Hindus from Calcutta opposed the same move.

19) Neheru opposed it.

20) At the end it seemed that, too many non Bengalis were involved in securing the future of Bengal.

21) Bengal got divided.

22) Tripura wanted to join East Pakistan after partition.

23) Nazimuddin did not want any more Hindu majority territory in Pakistan fearing to loosen the grip of Hawkish Muslims (Non Bengali).

24) Nazimuddin was more worried about Kashmir than Tripura.

25) Sohrawardy declined to come to East Pakistan before all the repatriation of Muslim from Calcutta takes place.

26) Nazimuddin took this opportunity and kicked Sohrawardy out of National Assembly.

27) Sohrawardy resigned from Muslim League.

29) By 1948/1949, Awami Muslim League was formed by Bhasani.

30) Sohrawardy joined Awami Muslim League in 1950/1951.

31) Fazlul Haque also gone back to his Krishak Proja Party leaving Muslim League.

32) By 1954 it was clearly visible that there were two faction in East Pakistan, liberal secular faction and a hawkish muslim league faction

33) Jukto Front was formed and Muslim League was defeated by huge margin.


I hope you should understand the dynamics of East Pakistan politics by now. RAW was too small of a factor to move stall wart like Fazlul Haque or Sohrawardy.

Thank you for the history lesson. But that was not really my questions for you. I thought we already discussed that RAW did not even exist back then. What I am interested to find out is at what point in time Indian Intelligence Bureau started making contact with Awami League, I think this was around 1963. I am going to open a separate thread about that topic. Now here are the questions again, which you claimed in a previous post, but did not have any answers to back them up:

your post:

RAW had no role in formation of Awami League as there were no RAW in 1949. Bengali nationalism was a threat to Pakistan as well as for India. Sheikh Mujib played his card right using India and he was a lucky chap. Sheikh wanted a greater secular bengal including Assam but 1971 spoiled his dream.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...uld-exceed-30-lac-mamun-11.html#ixzz1zuUrv2nn

my post:

RAW was formed in 1968 from Intelligence Bureau, so RAW obviously did not have a role 1949-1968, but Intelligence Bureau as its predecessor could have. And when RAW came into being under Indira in 1968, I think East Pakistan was one of its major theater of activity.

Please show some sources where it says Mujib's Bengali nationalism included Assam or any other states in North East India. Are you also saying that Mujib thought that West Bengal would join East Pakistan under Bengali nationalism or just Assam? You do realize that Assam means automatically India looses connection with all other states in North East India. So in effect you are saying that Mujib was a lucky chap, as he was thinking that he could use India to get independence and also get Assam and the other North East states as gift from India?

And from what I have seen about these North East states, each have their own culture and all of them do not like Bengali's, including Ahoms and Assamese, who have their own distinct culture. What they wanted always is independence but never to join with East Bengal.

As far as I remember, ISI was involved with North East states insurgency, not Mujib or Awami League.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...uld-exceed-30-lac-mamun-12.html#ixzz1zuTAhONr

 

[kalu_miah]

Kalu Bhai, please remember the following names like Najam Sethi, Pervaiz Hoodbouy, Altaf Hussein, Assad Durrani and Asma Jahangir for future reference as the symbol of traitors, whose sole motives are to defame PAK defenders, sow Fitna and help disintegrating it.

M_Saint Bhai, please look at this post:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...would-exceed-30-lac-mamun-11.html#post3148916

One of the critical point is mentioned in this post, I think Bhutto made the critical move after meeting with Mujib in March 1971. Indian's were moving their chess pieces and Bhutto either deliberately or by mistake blinked, made the wrong move and caused the civil war which was very much avoidable. Many different countries separate, they don't have to go through civil war and killings and we could do the same, like Czechs and Slovaks did:
Dissolution of Czechoslovakia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After a transition period of roughly four years, during which the relations between the states could be characterized as a "post-divorce trauma", the present relations between Czechs and Slovaks, as many people[who?] point out, are probably better than they have ever been.
No movement to re-unite Czechoslovakia has appeared and no political party advocates it in its programme. Political influences between the countries are minimal, but social democrats tend to cooperate very closely on regional and European topics in recent years. Furthermore, it has become customary that the elected presidents pay their first and last official "foreign" visits during their term to the other republic of the former Czechoslovakia. Appointed foreign ministers tend to follow this unwritten rule. Also, peace keeping troops stationed in the former Czechoslovakia were put under a joint command on several occasions. Trade relationships were re-established and stabilized, and the Czech Republic continues to be Slovakia's most important business partner. After a short interruption, Slovakia's resorts in the Carpathian mountains are again the target of a growing number of Czech tourists.
Following the death of the last Czechoslovak president Václav Havel on December 18, 2011, both the Czech and the Slovak Republics observed the day of national mourning. During the funeral mass in Prague's St. Vitus Cathedral prayers were recited in an equal ratio in the Czech and the Slovak Language.

I think the big picture is getting clear how Indian IB and RAW later was involved with Awami League to bring East and West Pakistan to the brink of civil war. I will open a separate thread about it, since this thread is about the number of dead in 1971.

 

[TopCat]

Kalu Bhai, please remember the following names like Najam Sethi, Pervaiz Hoodbouy, Altaf Hussein, Assad Durrani and Asma Jahangir for future reference as the symbol of traitors, whose sole motives are to defame PAK defenders, sow Fitna and help disintegrating it.

The are actually RAW agent.

Thank you for the history lesson. But that was not really my questions for you. I thought we already discussed that RAW did not even exist back then. What I am interested to find out is at what point in time Indian Intelligence Bureau started making contact with Awami League, I think this was around 1963. I am going to open a separate thread about that topic. Now here are the questions again, which you claimed in a previous post, but did not have any answers to back them up:

your post:


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...uld-exceed-30-lac-mamun-11.html#ixzz1zuUrv2nn

my post:


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/bangla...uld-exceed-30-lac-mamun-12.html#ixzz1zuTAhONr

RAW had no role till 1965 war.

Any other question?

Bull, Dog Shytes. And Altaf Kalia of MQM would be happy seeing someone from BD's origin is copying from his MQM AKA RAW's literature. No wonder that this clown is completely devoid of BD's realty yet shamelessly continue his lies over here as he thinks Goebbels has just matured, whose line of deception is still workable. But people are way smarter than this bafoon that demonstrates from enemy's intelligent agency's index.

What made Pakistan not to make land reform till 2012 when every country in the sub continent already done so?

 

[kalu_miah]

The(y) are actually RAW agent.

RAW had no role till 1965 war.

Any other question?

Source, link or evidence please for the statement that those gentlemen are RAW agents. I would appreciate if you could post this info in the RAW related thread I have just opened.

You are saying in above that after 1965 RAW had some role, what kind of role did RAW have within East Pakistan after 1965? Again please post this info in the RAW related thread, if you don't mind.


Questions about your post below:

Bengali nationalism was a threat to Pakistan as well as for India. Sheikh Mujib played his card right using India and he was a lucky chap. Sheikh wanted a greater secular bengal including Assam but 1971 spoiled his dream.

As far as I understand, Bengali nationalism by definition had to include all Bengali's anywhere in the immediate neighborhood, including West Bengal, may be some North East Indian states where there was some Bengali population as well as Arakan state in Burma. Mujib was apparently sympathetic to Rohingya's as he said, where ever their is Bengali, there is Bangladesh.

1. What was Mujib's idea of greater "secular" Bengal? Did it include West Bengal? You mention Assam was included, what about the rest of the North East states of India and Arakan in Burma, were they included as well in his vision of greater Bengal?

2. You have mentioned that he was trying to use India, but how exactly was he trying to use India, what was his game plan? What was the end goal that he wanted to achieve using India? A greater Bengal including West Bengal, East Bengal, North East states and Arakan?

3. In what way did you consider Mujib a "lucky chap"?

If the answers to above questions are RAW related, please post the answer in the RAW thread, otherwise please post them either here or there.

 

[TopCat]

Source, link or evidence please for the statement that those gentlemen are RAW agents. I would appreciate if you could post this info in the RAW related thread I have just opened.

You are saying in above that after 1965 RAW had some role, what kind of role did RAW have within East Pakistan after 1965? Again please post this info in the RAW related thread, if you don't mind.


Questions about your post below:


As far as I understand, Bengali nationalism by definition had to include all Bengali's anywhere in the immediate neighborhood, including West Bengal, may be some North East Indian states where there was some Bengali population as well as Arakan state in Burma. Mujib was apparently sympathetic to Rohingya's as he said, where ever their is Bengali, there is Bangladesh.

1. What was Mujib's idea of greater "secular" Bengal? Did it include West Bengal? You mention Assam was included, what about the rest of the North East states of India and Arakan in Burma, were they included as well in his vision of greater Bengal?

2. You have mentioned that he was trying to use India, but how exactly was he trying to use India, what was his game plan? What was the end goal that he wanted to achieve using India? A greater Bengal including West Bengal, East Bengal, North East states and Arakan?

3. In what way did you consider Mujib a "lucky chap"?

If the answers to above questions are RAW related, please post the answer in the RAW thread, otherwise please post them either here or there.

Why it is so hard for everybody to understand that its AL policy till this day of greater Bengal which includes WB. That is why they call it Bengali Nationalism not Bangladeshi nationalism. Even though they have this policy yet they dont have any comprehensive plan to annex rather they hope that someday WB will find its way to reunite with greater Bangladesh. That's my understanding.

And yes some of the WB leader as I heard covertly assured Mujib that they will try to come out of India if Mujib succeed in coming out of Pakistan. But my guess was that those leaders had not much influence as Mujib himself.

And yes, Mujib always wanted to come out of Pakistan. Agartala conspiracy was not false. He even tried to make contacts with Indian leadership for help in securing his goal. Its true.

Mujib was lucky that he could secure Indian help and did not have to merge with India.

 

[kalu_miah]

Why it is so hard for everybody to understand that its AL policy till this day of greater Bengal which includes WB. That is why they call it Bengali Nationalism not Bangladeshi nationalism. Even though they have this policy yet they dont have any comprehensive plan to annex rather they hope that someday WB will find its way to reunite with greater Bangladesh. That's my understanding.

And yes some of the WB leader as I heard covertly assured Mujib that they will try to come out of India if Mujib succeed in coming out of Pakistan. But my guess was that those leaders had not much influence as Mujib himself.

And yes, Mujib always wanted to come out of Pakistan. Agartala conspiracy was not false. He even tried to make contacts with Indian leadership for help in securing his goal. Its true.

Mujib was lucky that he could secure Indian help and did not have to merge with India.

Interesting, thanks for clarifying, what can I say, absurd dreams of the clueless. Please see the RAW thread and read the article and book by B Raman:
B. Raman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mujib, Tajuddin, 3 other Khalifa's and many others in Awamy League were used as pawns in the great game in this theater by India and Russia, like many others and the game continues as we speak. There is a term for people like him and others who follow the trail he blazed:
Useful idiot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is essential to understand geopolitics, more so for leaders, I think we need to teach courses in this subject in high school for our entire population. Either we learn to play our own game of geopolitics, or somebody else will play the game for us and use us as pawns.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@ Atanz, "on the Afghan side of border" does not necessarily mean inside Afghan ?????? Moreso, in many of these places I was physically brought up.

No, I am sorry but I have to disagree. A border is a line. It may be fenced, it may or may not be marked. Any border will always have two sides to it. In our case the Afghan side and the Pakistani side.

In your case the Indian side and Bangladeshi side etc.

When you talk of "Afghan side" you are describing the border on the "Afghan side" that is Afghanistan. The "Pakistan side" is Pakistan. I think that is pretty well elementary.

Don't you think so?

 

[TopCat]

Interesting, thanks for clarifying, what can I say, absurd dreams of the clueless. Please see the RAW thread and read the article and book by B Raman:
B. Raman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mujib, Tajuddin, 3 other Khalifa's and many others in Awamy League were used as pawns in the great game in this theater by India and Russia, like many others and the game continues as we speak. There is a term for people like him and others who follow the trail he blazed:
Useful idiot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is essential to understand geopolitics, more so for leaders, I think we need to teach courses in this subject in high school for our entire population. Either we learn to play our own game of geopolitics, or somebody else will play the game for us and use us as pawns.

You have to judge Mujib after clarifying your position regarding separation from Pakistan.

1) Do you support Bangladesh regardless Mujib or not Mujib and RAW or not RAW?
2) Do you support unified Pakistan East + West?

If you support position 1 then what Mujib did was the right thing. Reason, you need to make friends to defeat your enemy. Same thing we do with China to counter India.

If you support position 2 then everything Mujib did was a blunder. M_Saint, Luffy were known Rajakar. Al-Zakir is half Pakistani. Now you got to clear your position and disregard the opinion of this quadro.

 

[aakash_2410]

13 pages and still counting?

I didn't know this was favourite passtime of Bangladeshis.

India has moved on, I think Pakistan has also moved on from 1971. I think it's about time Bangladesh is moved on.

Bangladesh is a separate country now, no one can change that fact now.

 

[Armstrong]

Well Mr. iajdani, M_Saint Bhai is a patriot for sure and he means well, so I trust his opinions, although on many issues we have differences of opinion. For me Akmal Bhai just brings a lot of new pertinent information that I have not seen before, but I think he has too soft a corner for Pakistan for my taste. If you think my opinion is based on views from these two posters, then you have very inflated view about your own perception.

What you bring up about land reform is indeed a very interesting and central point which Pakistani elite would object to, as most leaders there including Bhutto's are from Zaminder families with extremely large land holdings and this feudal system is one of their biggest problem. Military's collusion with this feudal elite is a well known fact even today in Pakistan that is hindering the development of their democracy.

So what you are saying is that it was all the fault of political and military elite of West Pakistan and RAW and Indian intelligence branch (IB) before RAW's formation had no role with Awami Muslim League and Awami League during 1949-1971 to fund and support the development of Bengali nationalism, which laid the ground work of 1971 civil war?

P.S You'd be surprised to know that both Iqbal and Jinnah talked about something they called 'Islamic Socialism' ! In fact in one of Iqbal's Poems he says, metaphorically, that 'those fields that don't provide (equitable) livelihood to the Farmer burn every mound of wheat there in' ! In fact a translation of it is as follows :

Farman-e-Khuda

Uttho Mere Duniya Ke Gareebon Ko Jaga Do!!
Kaakh-e-Umra Ke Dar-o-Deewaar Hila Do!!

Rise up and awaken the poor of My world!
Shake the doors & walls of the mansions of the great

Garmao Ghulaamon Ka Lahoo Soz-e-Yakeen Se;
Kunjishk Ke Firomaya Ko Shaheen Se Lada Do!!

Heat the blood of slaves with the burn of complete Faith.
Level the humbleness of the Sparrow with the fearless Falcon.

Sultani-o-Jamhoor Ka Aata Hai Zamaana;
Jo Naqsh-e-Kohan Tumko Nazar Aaye Mita Do!!

The reign of monarchy and Democracy is coming.
Remove any sign of archaism (old kind of system) you come across.

Jis Khet Se Dehkaan Ko Muyassar Nahi Rozi;
Uss Khet Ke Har Koshah-e-Gandum Ko Jala Do!!

The field which doesn't yield a livelihood to farmers;
Burn every stack of wheat from that field.

Kyun Khaaliq-o-Makhlooq Mein Haayal Rahen Parde?
Peeran-e-Kaleesa Ko Kaleesa Se Utha Do!!

Why should there be veils between the Creator & His creations?
Remove all the intermediary priests from the worship places.

Haq Ra Ba-Sajoode, Sanaman Ra Ba-Tawaafe
Behtar Hai, Charagh-e-Haram-o-Dair Bujha Do!!

For Truth you do prostration, for idols you do circumambuluation.
It is better to remove light from all the holy places.

Main Na-Khush-o-Bezaar Hoon Mar Mar Ki Silon Se;
Mere Liye Mitti Ke Haram Aur Bana Do!!

I am unhappy and dissatisfied with slabs of marble;
Build another 'Haram' (Kaaba) out of 'mud' for me!

Tehzeeb-e-Navi Kaargah-e-Sheesha Garaan Hai
Aadaab-e-Junoon Shayar-e-Mashriq Ko Sikha Do!!

The contemporary culture is burdensome as a workshop of brittle glass!
Teach the poet of the East, poetry filled with passion!!

Heres a rock rendition of the same by 'Laal' a rock-band in Pakistan :

 

[Md Akmal]

No, I am sorry but I have to disagree. A border is a line. It may be fenced, it may or may not be marked. Any border will always have two sides to it. In our case the Afghan side and the Pakistani side.

In your case the Indian side and Bangladeshi side etc.

When you talk of "Afghan side" you are describing the border on the "Afghan side" that is Afghanistan. The "Pakistan side" is Pakistan. I think that is pretty well elementary.

Don't you think so?

@ Hi english man your English and our English may not be the same. Now let's hear a comment from 3rd party. I prefer the opinion of Kalu-miah!!!! So, what I wrote in the previous paragraph,

" @ The problem was once in 1947 Bengal became the part of Pakistan, it was no match with the other parts of Pakistan. All the military installations were located at various parts of Pakistan. These were mainly on the Afghan side of the border like Noshera, Waziristan, Chirat, Abbotabad, Rawalpindi and others."

@ Can any one tell, does the above sentence means that those areas are inside Afghanistan ????????