Li Keqiang hails Pakistan as China's 'iron brother'

[Vinod2070]

So it's a three way tango between India, Pakistan and China and it surely seems China's playing us both India and Pakistan for suckers and balancing and counter balancing both of us. Just like what the US did...hope one day we wake up to reality and stop becoming pawns on someone else's chessboard for a few tidbits.

China is not all powerful as you seem to think.

It has it's own share of compulsions and fears. It's priority is (and will remain) East Asia.

 

[muse]

Below are some items I think readers on this forum may appreciate, readers are encouraged to look up my opening comments on this thread, in particular those regarding the training of anti-China islamist terrorists on Pakistani soil, and Pakistani failure, refusal, to take advantage of the economic opportunity China provided:'

In a joint statement issued at the conclusion of Chinese Premier’s two-day visit, Islamabad and Beijing agreed to further deepen practical cooperation in all sectors and strengthen coordination and cooperation on international and regional issues.

The Chinese premier reaffirmed support Pakistan’s efforts to uphold its independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity. In return, Pakistan reiterated that friendship with China is the cornerstone of its foreign policy as well.

According to the statement, tThe statement also said that both sides believe that terrorism, separatism and extremism pose a serious threat to regional peace, stability and security, and reaffirmed their resolve to continue cooperation to combat the ‘three evil forces’.

“China recognises that Pakistan has made great efforts and sacrifices to combat terrorism, and reiterates that it respects the anti-terrorism strategy developed and implemented by the Pakistani side in light of its own conditions,” the statement read.

Pakistan reaffirmed its resolve to combat terrorism, and commits to continuous, active collaboration with and assistance to China in combating terrorist forces including the East Turkestan Islamic Movement.

and look at this, lets hope the Duffer brigades can get out of their mindset and FOCUS :

The Chinese premier said Pakistan is a great country and a time-tested friend of China.He said Pakistan’s support to China is vital for the development of his country. “China will give you every support and assistance and by helping you, we have to help ourselves,” he added.

So, yes, by all means continue with US this and Zionist that, and media bias this and that - but if you are willing to be "honest" we cannot say that we did not forewarn you or that we were negligent in our duty to present to you, ideas, that would allow you to awaken and look at this in their proper light

 

[illusion8]

China is not all powerful as you seem to think.

It has it's own share of compulsions and fears. It's priority is (and will remain) East Asia.

That's not what I meant...people and countries take advantage of our animosity.

 

[r3alist]

the simple fact remains that its stupid and imprudent to maintain a mindset which is always looking for a sponsor, it can only be a short term measure, but never long term.

 

[FaujHistorian]

This is not the fault of China, it is the fault of Pakistani politicians, more than any other, it's the politicians that are to blame for this - Just look at the history of this topic on this forum, you will see that we have saying that Pakistani officials are not serious about the relationship with China because they simply refuse to focus on the economic relationship, refuse to trade

@Develepereo has said that it intellectual dishonesty to say that the US$ 70 billion in trade between India and China is something we should emulate or seek to compete with -- what he and others, fail to understand is that what that volume of trade buys the Indian and the Chinese is a stake in each other - whereas what the Pakistani politicians and bureaucrats want is hand outs which they can route to their friends and families.

Instead of competing with the Indians to trade in as many goods and products that are exported to China, Pakistanis are being told that wringing of hands is as much as they can expect - it's shameless/

The Chinese Premier has articulated that the Pakistan China relationship "still" has potential - if the importance of this word is not taken seriously, Pakistan will end up further isolated - the resolve, the commitment to be a good friend is reflected in the use of the word "still", as is the sense that time is running out.

My dear poster(s),

Before we go into specifics of countries and numbers, we must try to understand the nature of trade with china.


At this very moment, that is in 2013, trade between China and any country in the world follows a pattern.

1. Country A exports to China: Mainly raw materials (coal, petroleum, minerals), and food (rice, milk, and what not)

2. Country A IMPORTS from China: Finished products, phones, computers, TVs etc. and soon airplanes, cars, etc.


In general $100 billion trade with China means:

country A exports to China, raw materials food etc. worth $20-30 (or less) billions
country A IMPORTS from china: finished goods worth $70-80 (or more) billions.


Now these numbers or ratios for India, Brazil, Pakistan, South Africa or Australia may be different. But they follow the same general pattern.


There is no one who can outcompete China in trade. No one.


And if a country has figured out a magic formula for this, well rest assured Chinese people are working hard to FIX it.


peace

 

[muse]

My dear poster(s),

Before we go into specifics of countries and numbers, we must try to understand the nature of trade with china.


country A exports to China, raw materials food etc. worth $20-30 (or less) billions
country A IMPORTS from china: finished goods worth $70-80 (or more) billions.
Now these numbers or ratios for India, Brazil, Pakistan, South Africa or Australia may be different. But they follow the same general pattern.
There is no one who can outcompete China in trade. No one. And if a country has figured out a magic formula for this, well rest assured Chinese people are working hard to FIX it. peace

What's that got to do with anything I was talking about?? Have I suggested we be in competition with them? What matters is the volume of trade, once that is established, we can move to balance within the volume - we are buying TV and whatever elesewhere from whereever it is cheaper and better, so why not from China??

 

[FaujHistorian]

What's that got to do with anything I was talking about?? Have I suggested we be in competition with them? What matters is the volume of trade, once that is established, we can move to balance within the volume - we are buying TV and whatever elesewhere from whereever it is cheaper and better, so why not from China??

I was just adding to your argument and not negating it. I hope you understand that.


Volume of trade with China will increase for sure.

But in a decade or so, any country without large scale raw material/food will suffer economic failure like EU countries.

Why

It is not sustainable to trade with china.


peace

 

[Developereo]

@Develepereo has said that it intellectual dishonesty to say that the US$ 70 billion in trade between India and China is something we should emulate or seek to compete with -- what he and others, fail to understand is that what that volume of trade buys the Indian and the Chinese is a stake in each other

I would urge you not to twist my words to hide your own mistakes.

I responded to the claims in the Express Tribune blog post that the Pakistani trade with China is "colonial" in nature, while the India-China trade is not. I pointed out the utter idiocy of the author not to even bother analyzing the India-China trade before making such a claim. The India-China trade basket follows the exact same pattern as the Pak-China trade.

As for the volume of trade, and broader cooperation in general, I have been a proponent of that for several years now. I even opened a thread to that effect some years ago on this very forum, so no need to explain to me the importance thereof.

 

[Developereo]

1. Country A exports to China: Mainly raw materials (coal, petroleum, minerals), and food (rice, milk, and what not)

2. Country A IMPORTS from China: Finished products, phones, computers, TVs etc. and soon airplanes, cars, etc.

Your analysis is accurate for China's trade with developing countries.

In the Chinese market, the low end is already handled by local suppliers, and the high (prestige) end is taken by established brands (i.e. Western, Japanese, etc.). This makes it very hard for developing countries to penetrate that market with anything other than raw materials.

Indians want to sell their pharma and IT into China. I don't know much about the pharma industry, but Indian IT has been having a hard time gaining significant share within China because it competes primarily on price. When your only competitive advantage is price, China will kill you at the starting line.

This may change as China advances up the income ladder.

 

[illusion8]

What's that got to do with anything I was talking about?? Have I suggested we be in competition with them? What matters is the volume of trade, once that is established, we can move to balance within the volume - we are buying TV and whatever elesewhere from whereever it is cheaper and better, so why not from China??

The downside between exporting raw materials and finished goods is the value chain and the labor usage is more in the case of finished goods hence more points / areas to make money and generate employment both for skilled and educated labor.

Exporting finished goods is a lot better than exporting raw material.

 

[FaujHistorian]

.... The India-China trade basket follows the exact same pattern as the Pak-China trade.
.....

Well said.

Pakistanis cannot analyze trade with China vs. trade with USA.

Because we mix emotions, jingoism, and sheer $tupidity while talking about trade.

And this insanity leads us to the wrong results.

A dollar bill is a dollar bill. It doesn't have any kind of "brother hood" or "religion" or "colonialism" attached to oit.

It is just a piece of cloth (mixed with paper). And it simply says "In God we trust" in an American way.


Chinese figured out the nature of dollar bill.

We have not.

In fact any country with sizable numbers of engineers, doctors, and accountants cannot be poor.

And if it is poor,

Then its engineers, doctors, and accountants have not figured out how to deal with dollar bill.


Pakistanis have orgasms thinking about China, and Indians suffer a lot of f@rtsy-condition when looking at Pakistani-Chinese relationshop.

The reality is that both the orgasms and the f@rts are simply making a mess and stinking up the place. Nothing more.

Chinese are not impacted.

They are cashing in dollars by the ship load.


And we all sit over here, having virtual orgasms, and real f@rts on stuff we do not care to understand.


peace

 

[Developereo]

Pakistanis have orgasms thinking about China, and Indians suffer a lot of f@rtsy-condition when looking at Pakistani-Chinese relationshop.

There is a geopolitical dimension beyond economics which validates these feelings of Pakistanis and Indians.

India wants to increase hegemony in the region and that goal is endorsed by the US.
China also wants to expand its sphere of influence, but is opposed by the US.

From the Pakistani perspective, a multi-polar region is better than a Indo-US dominated one, so we welcome China's involvement. Ideally, it would be Pakistan itself that would be aiming for a leadership role, but sadly we know better than to expect any such thing from our leaders.

 

[muse]

I would urge you not to twist my words to hide your own mistakes.

I responded to the claims in the Express Tribune blog post that the Pakistani trade with China is "colonial" in nature, while the India-China trade is not. I pointed out the utter idiocy of the author not to even bother analyzing the India-China trade before making such a claim. The India-China trade basket follows the exact same pattern as the Pak-China trade.

As for the volume of trade, and broader cooperation in general, I have been a proponent of that for several years now. I even opened a thread to that effect some years ago on this very forum, so no need to explain to me the importance thereof.

What mr. Tirmizi, not I has suggested can be thought of as colonial, is the "Extractive" nature the trade - now I would refer you to the statements of the Chinese Premier and the Global Times editorial, in which the Chinese side has said that commercial relations between Pakistan and China should not come to be seen as extractive - why then should you play more catholic than the pope? In any case I will try and find the comment and perhaps you may see the issue in a different light

 

[FaujHistorian]

Your analysis is accurate for China's trade with developing countries.

In the Chinese market, the low end is already handled by local suppliers, and the high (prestige) end is taken by established brands (i.e. Western, Japanese, etc.). This makes it very hard for developing countries to penetrate that market with anything other than raw materials.

Indians want to sell their pharma and IT into China. I don't know much about the pharma industry, but Indian IT has been having a hard time gaining significant share within China because it competes primarily on price. When your only competitive advantage is price, China will kill you at the starting line.

This may change as China advances up the income ladder.

Well said.


right on the money.



Selling any service to Chinese is possible.

However the margins are very very very small compared to selling the same services to USA.


Indian IT per hour labor in USA makes it possible for HUGE margins. like $100-250 per hour compared to Indian $10-50.

When you go to china with the same business model, you are in for a rude awakening.

Why, Chinese can produce the same products or services for pretty much the same price or even lower.


Infosys (or other Indian companies) will have their publicly traded stock go down to zero if they ever tell their investors that most of their income will be from chinese market.


So Pakistanis and Indians or other developing countries (and even developed countries) can kiss their economic @rses good bye, when it comes to trading with China.


peace

 

[muse]

Ok - here you go :

In Pakistan’s terms of trade with China, the relationship is virtually colonial in nature. In 2012, China sold Pakistan about $6.6 billion worth of goods, mostly electronic equipment and machinery. Pakistan sold China about $2.6 billion worth of goods, nearly all of that cotton yarn. By contrast, Pakistan runs a trade surplus with both the United States and the European Union.

What Mr Tirmizi is saying is that we ought to have a positive balance -- sure we all wish we can achieve that, but lets increase the volume which allows us the leverage and the space to seek greater balance