Let the truce flag go up - Bluster should make way for peace initiatives with Pakistan

[MastanKhan]

Check this video from 2:37, the doctor who did the post mortem of those 4 soldiers is saying in an interview to ANI...
"lower limbs of 3 soldiers are totally lost."

Hi,

Welcome to the board.

That is nothing to be proud of or to brag about.

 

[airmarshal]

India is not run by some op-ed article. Do get enthusiastic about it

India is run by TV anchors who exude hatred against Pakistan and nothing else. You dont understand but hatred against us will take you nowhere. That rage is creating false impressions in minds of many viewers.

I shudder to see on TV channels, former diplomats, generals talking so condescendingly about us. I just cant think of reason for such a complex you guys have. I sometime laugh and sometime worry that if intelligent, experienced people talk about another country with such viciousness and height of ignorance, what would a common man on the street, who watches such shows, would begin to think? Such pent up rage will lead to an accident both India and Pakistan cant afford to live with.

 

[Khanate]

Religion does come into this. Pakistan wasn't founded because Pakistanis are different ethnically, it was founded because the Muslims of Hindustan needed a separate state, our ideology was and is simply too different to that of the non-Muslim Hindustanis.

Wrong.

Pakistan was the name designated to the state for Muslims of the Indus Basin. Ergo, one cannot overlook geography.

The First Proposed Map of Pakistan

This country was founded because of and for Islam, there's a reason Jinnah called Qasim the first Pakistani and not the guys from IVC or Gandhara. If this country's creation had anything to do with ethnic groups or race, why did so many Hindustani Muslims move to Pakistan, and why is Pakistan so multi-ethnic?

Wrong, again. On every count.

• First, we know Imād ad-Dīn Muḥammad ibn Qāsim ath-Thaqafī was an Arab.

• Second, Muhammad bin Qasim wasn't the first Arab, or Muslim, to have arrived on the shores of Sindh. There is a documented 60 year long effort by various Arab rulers to gain a beachhead in Makran.

• Third, the First Pakistani retort is polemics rather than a fact. It is a leftover from a debate that happened prior to partition between British, Muslim and Hindu archeologist. The British colonialists, ever the masters of divide and conquer, claimed it was the invasion of Sindh that had fractured the subcontinent. There is virtually no proof for this claim.

• Lastly, only in 1998 did Pakistan officially recognise Muhammad bin Qasim as the First Pakistani.

This country was founded because of and for Islam, there's a reason Jinnah called Qasim the first Pakistani

Kindly provide a source.

A Muslim who goes against his fellow Muslim becomes a non-Muslim by default, that is the Islamic ruling, so Hindustani Muslims who hate Pakistanis and love Hindustan (the same country that kills Hindustani Muslims in Kashmir, annexed Hyderabad, destroyed Babri Masjid, hates the history of Muslim rule of South Asia, etc) don't count as Muslim, they have become Uncle Tom's.

Irrelevant.

Muslim is not an ethnic group. Baloch, Sindhi, Pakhtoon, Punjabi, Kashmiri, Hazara, Balti, etc. are ethnic groups.

Having more love for non-Muslims than your fellow Muslims is a dangerous feeling to harbour, it promotes further disunity among Muslims. Rather than throwing in the towel and giving up on unity, we should strive to achieve it even in these trying times.

Pfft, China is doing what is in their interests, they don't care about us. It's just a cooperation to achieve overlapping interests, just like things were with the Americans. Once we've finished our use, the Chinese will throw us away like a used tissue, just like the Americans are going to do.

No cohesive argument.

Your logic here is China is no subsitute for Ummah because... it all worked out so well for the Ottomans. Iron clad logic.


Tip: Seeing that you like to use Jinnah as a source in your arguments perhaps you may also like to follow in the footsteps of Jinnah who by all accounts was a man who embraced modernity. Seek some inspiration from these pictures:

 

[Smriti95]

india doesnt have any so called “air burst” arty.

And its Pak that has the edge in arty ..

As for Pak.. does your highness think Pak hasnt placed AAG in infantry role on LOC? Or mortars or light arty for that matter?

Your own defence ministry admitted India is using Air burst artillery in addition to ATGMs.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1383209

BTW Pakistan X corps along LoC has a mere 5 artillery regiments whereas India's XV & XVI corps have 8 artillery regiments along LoC.

Hi, meanwhile Pak produces AGTMs like Barq (Laser guided),Baktar Shikan (HJ-8) and has other ATGMs like Milan,TOW (latest variants),ALCOTAN 100 etc...

Barq i.e. Chinese Ar-1 is air launched so not used on LoC just like India does not use AT-16 on LoC.
India also produces Konkurs-M, Milan-2T.
Plus as per Pakistan we have deployed T-90 on LoC which can fire Invae ATGMS which we produce.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Your own defence ministry admitted India is using Air burst artillery in addition to ATGMs.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1383209

And you expect babus to even know what that is?

India doesn’t even produce air burst shell.. or Base bleed shells for that matter... and neither is india or Pak using 155mm on LOC.

BTW Pakistan X corps along LoC has a mere 5 artillery regiments whereas India's XV & XVI corps have 8 artillery regiments along LoC.

I dont know the strength.. but I do know that unlike india ... Pakistan isn’t struggling with arty.

Also, as for ATGM.. not sure about india .. but not the first time Pak is using it against india.

Here are last years attacks on indian posts with ATGMs (which we have alot to spare);

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

summary of the article is that India need peace to prepare its bunkers and trenches for another escalation.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Your own defence ministry admitted India is using Air burst artillery in addition to ATGMs.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1383209

BTW Pakistan X corps along LoC has a mere 5 artillery regiments whereas India's XV & XVI corps have 8 artillery regiments along LoC.


Barq i.e. Chinese Ar-1 is air launched so not used on LoC just like India does not use AT-16 on LoC.
India also produces Konkurs-M, Milan-2T.
Plus as per Pakistan we have deployed T-90 on LoC which can fire Invae ATGMS which we produce.

No, you have fixed old shytty Vijayanta tanks...

We can do that by placing old tanks from reserves to do with that.

 

[Smriti95]

And you expect babus to even know what that is?

India doesn’t even produce air burst shell.. or Base bleed shells for that matter... and neither is india or Pak using 155mm on LOC.

I dont know the strength.. but I do know that unlike india ... Pakistan isn’t struggling with arty.

Also, as for ATGM.. not sure about india .. but not the first time Pak is using it against india.

Here are last years attacks on indian posts with ATGMs (which we have alot to spare);

Sorry.
But you are a no body whereas your defence ministry additional secretary is a high ranking official so what he said is full and final.
Also India produces air burst artillery shells.
See:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/fz/2.htm

Orbat of both sides is well known India deploys 8 artillery regiments on LoC whereas Pakistan a mere 5.

We also use ATGMS on LoC in addition to 105mm hesh rounds

We have a stock of 44,000 ATGMS much more than Pakistans.

Also WajSKhan revealed that senior Pakistan army officers told him India deployed T-90 on LoC.

 

[Viking 63]

I am not sure you have parsed your statements yourself.

It would appear that you are saying that what is being exhibited (by Pakistanis) is what Indians believe and practice. Apparently Indians serve as the models for your behaviour. It gets better; apparently maturity should kick in at this point, but it doesn't.

You do realise that you have just said that the behaviour on exhibition (by Pakistanis) is modelled on what Indians believe and practice; that maturity should kick in; and that it does not kick in.

Amazing. You probably didn't see where the syntax was leading you, and didn't realise it even after writing what you did.

I suppose we should all start writing in Urdu, for clearer comprehension, in future.

My comprehension was clear about your statement and insinuation directed at Pakistanis I responded in plain English about Indians.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

No, Hindustanis, Afghans and Iranians all have a lot in common with Pakistan ethnically and culturally, and come under the same race. Hindustanis are not racially different to us. Our history overlaps with theirs significantly (same with Iran and Afghanistan).

Religion does come into this. Pakistan wasn't founded because Pakistanis are different ethnically, it was founded because the Muslims of Hindustan needed a separate state, our ideology was and is simply too different to that of the non-Muslim Hindustanis. This country was founded because of and for Islam, there's a reason Jinnah called Qasim the first Pakistani and not the guys from IVC or Gandhara. If this country's creation had anything to do with ethnic groups or race, why did so many Hindustani Muslims move to Pakistan, and why is Pakistan so multi-ethnic?

A Muslim who goes against his fellow Muslim becomes a non-Muslim by default, that is the Islamic ruling, so Hindustani Muslims who hate Pakistanis and love Hindustan (the same country that kills Hindustani Muslims in Kashmir, annexed Hyderabad, destroyed Babri Masjid, hates the history of Muslim rule of South Asia, etc) don't count as Muslim, they have become Uncle Tom's.

Having more love for non-Muslims than your fellow Muslims is a dangerous feeling to harbour, it promotes further disunity among Muslims. Rather than throwing in the towel and giving up on unity, we should strive to achieve it even in these trying times.

Pfft, China is doing what is in their interests, they don't care about us. It's just a cooperation to achieve overlapping interests, just like things were with the Americans. Once we've finished our use, the Chinese will throw us away like a used tissue, just like the Americans are going to do.

If indians are the same race as Pakistanis are tamils, south/central indians the same race as Pathans, Baloch, the Kalash and Persianised Nomadic tribes of Pakistan?.....

Please don't use the example that Pakistanis are the same race as indians because of Punjab. Punjabis make up less than 5% of india's population but around 60% of Pakistan's population. But ONLY a minority of that 5% of indian Punjabis have any racial commonality with Pakistanis. So AT LEAST 95% of indians have NO racial connection with Pakistanis whatsoever. In fact a FAR greater percentage of Iranians and afghans have a more common racial link to Pakistanis than indians do. That however does not make us Iranian, Persian, Middle Eastern or afghan just as it does not make us indian.

According to your above definition of "Kuffar", it means that 98% of Muslims globally are Kuffar. Regardless of whatever you say or think, not including Turkey, China has done FAR MORE for Pakiatan that all the other Muslim nations and Muslims put together × 100. In fact China has done FAR MORE for Pakistan than any 1 nation has done for another country. This reality is something that the religious Pakistanis CAN NEVER explain. As a result I love China and the people of China FAR MORE than any other Muslims or Muslim nations. They can all die out for all I care. Your arab brothers love White people the most for making their countries super wealthy and developed. Yet they consider Pakistani Muslims as sub-human savages even lower than apes........ Reality is that Jews would be more accepting of their girls marrying a Pakistani than the Palestinians some Pakistanis are crying for...........

Whatever the initial reason behind the creation of Pakistan, it has ultimately become a safe space for a unique race of people with a unique way of life and culture. Free from genocide, destruction and oppression from those that are evil and completely different to us.



PS was it the americans, other Muslim nations or China that helped Pakistan become a nuclear weapons state, invest in at least $61 billion dollars in Pakistan with many more billions earmarked for further investments in the coming years and decades, gave Pakistan the means to produce advanced high tech weapons systems? Who is now giving Pakistan the means to eventually become a world class economy? It's not the americans or other Muslim nations.

Comparing Pakistan's relationship with China to that of america's, is like comparing a Lion to a donkey.

Reality is that the Ummah is DEAD.

 

[jamal18]

ATGM's are standard infantry weapons and in no way an escalation.

 

[kabooter_maila]

Hi,

Welcome to the board.

That is nothing to be proud of or to brag about.

Being proud is not an appropriate word. But inflicting the enemy is always satisfying. If you don't bleed your enemy, you'll get bled by your enemy. It depends on you what you prefer - humiliating your enemy or getting humiliated. No need for you to given sermons here.

Sorry.
But you are a no body whereas your defence ministry additional secretary is a high ranking official so what he said is full and final.
Also India produces air burst artillery shells.
See:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/fz/2.htm

Orbat of both sides is well known India deploys 8 artillery regiments on LoC whereas Pakistan a mere 5.

We also use ATGMS on LoC in addition to 105mm hesh rounds

We have a stock of 44,000 ATGMS much more than Pakistans.

Also WajSKhan revealed that senior Pakistan army officers told him India deployed T-90 on LoC.

You might have 44 millions of ATGM. Who cares? We are just doing our job. Freedom fighters are doing their job. You're happy having 200 time more ATGMs compared to Pakistan and world's largest pile of air bursts, let it be so. We have no objection. So what's the point to have long but useless arguments?
Whatever meager number of ATGM we have you Indians call it as cheap Chinese junk. Well I am sure your soldiers are learning the reality in a painful way.
As a food for thought for you and other Indians, see the following for the latest attack by freedom fighters on the occupation forces.
Sent to the Hell: 2 coward soldiers
(Two less rapists and war criminals who routinely kill civilians including children)
Injured:
Col Rohit Solanki, 6 Mahar Regiment CO
Major Abhijeet (airlifted to Chandigarh)
Lance Naik Bahadur Singh
Two unidentified soldiers

India is not run by some op-ed article. Do get enthusiastic about it

Right! And yet so much hysteria on all big Indian channels. The nation getting mad. Please tell these TV channel owners what you are telling us here.

 

[Hamza913]

Wrong.

Pakistan was the name designated to the state for Muslims of the Indus Basin. Ergo, one cannot overlook geography.

The First Proposed Map of Pakistan




Wrong, again. On every count.

• First, we know Imād ad-Dīn Muḥammad ibn Qāsim ath-Thaqafī was an Arab.

• Second, Muhammad bin Qasim wasn't the first Arab, or Muslim, to have arrived on the shores of Sindh. There is a documented 60 year long effort by various Arab rulers to gain a beachhead in Makran.

• Third, the First Pakistani retort is polemics rather than a fact. It is a leftover from a debate that happened prior to partition between British, Muslim and Hindu archeologist. The British colonialists, ever the masters of divide and conquer, claimed it was the invasion of Sindh that had fractured the subcontinent. There is virtually no proof for this claim.

• Lastly, only in 1998 did Pakistan officially recognise Muhammad bin Qasim as the First Pakistani.

Kindly provide a source.





Irrelevant.

Muslim is not an ethnic group. Baloch, Sindhi, Pakhtoon, Punjabi, Kashmiri, Hazara, Balti, etc. are ethnic groups.





No cohesive argument.

Your logic here is China is no subsitute for Ummah because... it all worked out so well for the Ottomans. Iron clad logic.


Tip: Seeing that you like to use Jinnah as a source in your arguments perhaps you may also like to follow in the footsteps of Jinnah who by all accounts was a man who embraced modernity. Seek some inspiration from these pictures:

Pakistan was never referred to as a movement purely for people from modern day Pakistan, hence why so many other areas across Hindustan that were Muslim were originally involved. Your map shows this clearly. Need I also remind you about Bangladesh?

It's only coincidental that most Muslims of Hindustan happened to live in modern day Pakistan. If we lived in Utter Pradesh or Bangalore, Pakistan would have still been created (might have been given a different name, but that's irrelevant).

Remember, the Muslims who created Pakistan considered it a Muslim movement, not an Indus movement. It was called the Muslim League, not the Indus League. Show me any evidence that this was considered a movement based primarily on the Indus people being completely different to the rest of Hindustan.

Muhammad Bin Qasim being Arab means jack all, Pakistan only exists because of the Islamic conquests of Hindustan. No Islamic conquests means no Pakistan, and since Qasim was the first of the (major) conquerors, he gets the title of first Pakistani. He also had many locals working in both his administration and his military, and many Pakistanis are descended from Arabs who migrated to the region during (and after) his conquests (although, they would still probably have an overwhelmingly local ancestry, so the Arab genetics would probably be difficult to detect) so he's not some evil foreign entity. This nation exists because of Qasim. Show some respect.

He was still recognised though, which further proves my point.

Turns out I was wrong, Jinnah didn't call Qasim the first Pakistani. He said that the Pakistan movement started with Qasim. I'll give a source:

http://www.findpk.com/cybercity/pof/pakistan_movement.html

You can find even more if you use Google.

You're right, Islam is an ideology, and it comes before ethnicity and nationality for any self respecting Muslim.

China is no substitute for the Ummah because they have a totally different ideology to us. I don't mind us working together to achieve mutual interests, but let's keep it at that.

That last point is stupid and irrelevant to the argument.

If indians are the same race as Pakistanis are tamils, south/central indians the same race as Pathans, Baloch, the Kalash and Persianised Nomadic tribes of Pakistan?.....

Please don't use the example that Pakistanis are the same race as indians because of Punjab. Punjabis make up less than 5% of india's population but around 60% of Pakistan's population. But ONLY a minority of that 5% of indian Punjabis have any racial commonality with Pakistanis. So AT LEAST 95% of indians have NO racial connection with Pakistanis whatsoever. In fact a FAR greater percentage of Iranians and afghans have a more common racial link to Pakistanis than indians do. That however does not make us Iranian, Persian, Middle Eastern or afghan just as it does not make us indian.

According to your above definition of "Kuffar", it means that 98% of Muslims globally are Kuffar. Regardless of whatever you say or think, not including Turkey, China has done FAR MORE for Pakiatan that all the other Muslim nations and Muslims put together × 100. In fact China has done FAR MORE for Pakistan than any 1 nation has done for another country. This reality is something that the religious Pakistanis CAN NEVER explain. As a result I love China and the people of China FAR MORE than any other Muslims or Muslim nations. They can all die out for all I care. Your arab brothers love White people the most for making their countries super wealthy and developed. Yet they consider Pakistani Muslims as sub-human savages even lower than apes........ Reality is that Jews would be more accepting of their girls marrying a Pakistani than the Palestinians some Pakistanis are crying for...........

Whatever the initial reason behind the creation of Pakistan, it has ultimately become a safe space for a unique race of people with a unique way of life and culture. Free from genocide, destruction and oppression from those that are evil and completely different to us.



PS was it the americans, other Muslim nations or China that helped Pakistan become a nuclear weapons state, invest in at least $61 billion dollars in Pakistan with many more billions earmarked for further investments in the coming years and decades, gave Pakistan the means to produce advanced high tech weapons systems? Who is now giving Pakistan the means to eventually become a world class economy? It's not the americans or other Muslim nations.

Comparing Pakistan's relationship with China to that of america's, is like comparing a Lion to a donkey.

Reality is that the Ummah is DEAD.

Tamils and South Hindustanis are dravidians last time I checked, so no, they aren't from the same race as most Pakistanis (some of us are the same race as them though, e.g Brahuis). I don't exactly remember what race they belong to, but you can discover that for yourself.

You're conflating ethnic group with race. The race of most Hindustanis and Pakistanis is Indo-European, which is the same race people from Afghanistan and Iran belong to.

Punjabis will still have a lot in common with other ethnic groups in Hindustan, especially those along the north-west.

Wrong, China has not done more for Pakistan than any other Muslim country. Indonesia helped us in the first Kashmir war, Saudi Arabia provided funds for our nuclear programme and helped us fight the Soviets, etc.

You seem to conflate a minority of people with the majority. Yes, some Arabs are A-class bastards, but I have personally met far more nice ones, and even the rude ones get friendly when Ramazan/Eid swings around.
That perception also has more to do with wealth than ethnicity.

This marriage thing is a problem that all Muslims need to fix, including us. Don't single out the Arabs when I doubt you (or most Pakistanis) would let their daughter marry a Tamil.

Pakistan isn't racially all that different to Hindustan, most of Pakistan was historically categorised as being under
the same region. We are different because of Islam. Not this stupid neo-Nazi crap you spew.

Ummah is not dead, but it's on life support because of people like you.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Pakistan was never referred to as a movement purely for people from modern day Pakistan, hence why so many other areas across Hindustan that were Muslim were originally involved. Your map shows this clearly. Need I also remind you about Bangladesh?

It's only coincidental that most Muslims of Hindustan happened to live in modern day Pakistan. If we lived in Utter Pradesh or Bangalore, Pakistan would have still been created (might have been given a different name, but that's irrelevant).

Remember, the Muslims who created Pakistan considered it a Muslim movement, not an Indus movement. It was called the Muslim League, not the Indus League. Show me any evidence that this was considered a movement based primarily on the Indus people being completely different to the rest of Hindustan.

Muhammad Bin Qasim being Arab means jack all, Pakistan only exists because of the Islamic conquests of Hindustan. No Islamic conquests means no Pakistan, and since Qasim was the first of the (major) conquerors, he gets the title of first Pakistani. He also had many locals working in both his administration and his military, and many Pakistanis are descended from Arabs who migrated to the region during (and after) his conquests (although, they would still probably have an overwhelmingly local ancestry, so the Arab genetics would probably be difficult to detect) so he's not some evil foreign entity. This nation exists because of Qasim. Show some respect.

He was still recognised though, which further proves my point.

Turns out I was wrong, Jinnah didn't call Qasim the first Pakistani. He said that the Pakistan movement started with Qasim. I'll give a source:

http://www.findpk.com/cybercity/pof/pakistan_movement.html

You can find even more if you use Google.

You're right, Islam is an ideology, and it comes before ethnicity and nationality for any self respecting Muslim.

China is no substitute for the Ummah because they have a totally different ideology to us. I don't mind us working together to achieve mutual interests, but let's keep it at that.

That last point is stupid and irrelevant to the argument.



Tamils and South Hindustanis are dravidians last time I checked, so no, they aren't from the same race as most Pakistanis (some of us are the same race as them though, e.g Brahuis). I don't exactly remember what race they belong to, but you can discover that for yourself.

You're conflating ethnic group with race. The race of most Hindustanis and Pakistanis is Indo-European, which is the same race people from Afghanistan and Iran belong to.

Punjabis will still have a lot in common with other ethnic groups in Hindustan, especially those along the north-west.

Wrong, China has not done more for Pakistan than any other Muslim country. Indonesia helped us in the first Kashmir war, Saudi Arabia provided funds for our nuclear programme and helped us fight the Soviets, etc.

You seem to conflate a minority of people with the majority. Yes, some Arabs are A-class bastards, but I have personally met far more nice ones, and even the rude ones get friendly when Ramazan/Eid swings around.
That perception also has more to do with wealth than ethnicity.

This marriage thing is a problem that all Muslims need to fix, including us. Don't single out the Arabs when I doubt you (or most Pakistanis) would let their daughter marry a Tamil.

Pakistan isn't racially all that different to Hindustan, most of Pakistan was historically categorised as being under
the same region. We are different because of Islam. Not this stupid neo-Nazi crap you spew.

Ummah is not dead, but it's on life support because of people like you.

So Pakistanis are the same race as indians and the Ummah is alive????????......... I think we'll live it at that............

 

[xyxmt]

India is not run by some op-ed article. Do get enthusiastic about it

we know who India is run by