Lee Kuan Yew

[faithfulguy]

In India's same geography, descendants of same people still living.

America was a colony developed out of European settlers, if you comparing China to America it means you are saying China foundation was based on colonialism. You guys are trying make China's ethnic minorities as insignificant while in reality China's largest empires were formed by Mongols and Manchus.

I'm not comparing US to China. I'm countering your argument that China was created by Mongols during Yuan dynasty because of geography. Now, you are back tracking and say that China is a colonialist country. Actually, China is a combination of multiple ethnic groups. Even the people who lived in Yangzhee river valley was considered to be barbarians at the beginning of Spring and Autumn period. So now, I have debunk your original argument and you are trying to shift the focus and say that China is a colonialist country. That is not true as India is more likely a colonialist country. Hinduism, the one thing that tie India together, was brought to India by Aryans during their invasion of India. So the native people and culture of North Indian plain was replaced by Aryan Hinduism. This is colonialism more so thnt American development of North America.

why are u guys even arguing with an obvious indian troll? i mean seriously he claims that china was only "united" when the yuan dynasty was founded, i guess he thinks he is smarter than every main stream historian the world over. you cant convince a guy like that of anything even if it was right infront of his eyes he would still say it didnt exist

I had convinced him that his logic was flawed in post #207.

 

[INDIC]

I'm not comparing US to China. I'm countering your argument that China was created by Mongols during Yuan dynasty because of geography. Now, you are back tracking and say that China is a colonialist country. Actually, China is a combination of multiple ethnic groups. Even the people who lived in Yangzhee river valley was considered to be barbarians at the beginning of Spring and Autumn period. So now, I have debunk your original argument and you are trying to shift the focus and say that China is a colonialist country. That is not true as India is more likely a colonialist country. Hinduism, the one thing that tie India together, was brought to India by Aryans during their invasion of India. So the native people and culture of North Indian plain was replaced by Aryan Hinduism. This is colonialism more so thnt American development of North America.



I had convinced him that his logic was flawed in post #207.

You were comparing China to American colonialism, not me. Where you convinced me.

You went back to 1500BC India, aren't Northern Hans and Southern Hans two different races. I don't see the ancestors of multi-ethnic china in 221 BC in your so called united China.

You should make your mind about the Indian identity, your are often giving conflicting comments.

 

[Wholegrain]

Great wall was built to keep away the barbarians to isolate Chinese people from the barbarian races. Don't tell me about Europe, I don't see a united China in 221 BC that contains land & their native people from Beijing to Lhasa or Urumqi.

Wrong. If the great wall was to isolate china from barbarian races, China would have built the wall the ring all of China's land borders. China built no walls to block out barbarians to the west or to block out southeast asians. All peoples outside of China were called barbarians. China built the northern wall as a military defense against northern nomadic raiders like Mongol tribes.

Over 80% of Russia is not the homeland of slavic people but of others. But Russia was considered united when all the petty russian principalities were put together, not when they expanded to siberia.

You were comparing China to American colonialism, not me. Where you convinced me.

You went back to 1500BC India, aren't Northern Hans and Southern Hans two different races. I don't see the ancestors of multi-ethnic china in 221 BC in your so called united China.

You should make your mind about the Indian identity, your are often giving conflicting comments.

Southern Han are descended from Northern Han men who migrated to southern China and married the native women. (The natives were called bai yue or hundred yue).

Genetics tests on the Y Chromosome haplogroup (inherited patrilineally from the father) show southern han mostly have the same y chromosome as northern han, but different mitochondrial DNA (inherited from mother).

Southern Han may cluster closer to southeast asians in autosomal DNA (DNA not found on sex chromosomes which make up most of the body), because if you send a group of men to another population of women and they constantly marry native women and outbreeding eventually most of their genes will be from the natives, while their y chromosome will be the thing they retain from their father.

European Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/wenbo Han culture paper (2004).pdf

Genetic evidence supports demic diffusion of Han cult... [Nature. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

How Han are Taiwanese Han? Genetic Inference of Plains Indigenous Ancestry ... - Shu-Juo Chen - Google Books

The majority of Hokkien Taiwanese are descended from Chinese men who married native aboriginal formosan women. There is a saying in Taiwan, "mainland grandfather no mainland grandmother" 有唐山公無唐山媽

In China, ethnicity and culture is inherited patrilineally. Surnames come patrilineally. Southern han are patrilineally descended from northern Han.

 

[faithfulguy]

You were comparing China to American colonialism, not me. Where you convinced me.

You went back to 1500BC India, aren't Northern Hans and Southern Hans two different races. I don't see the ancestors of multi-ethnic china in 221 BC in your so called united China.

You should make your mind about the Indian identity, your are often giving conflicting comments.

I was just making a point about colonialism. But that is not my main point, which is India was created by British imperialism. While countries in east Asia were not. Korea was a kingdom before Japanese occupation. So was Vietnam before French, Burma before British, etc. Vietnam, Burma and Korea existed as a country before being colonialized. India didn't existed as a nation such as Vietnam, Burma or Korea.

 

[INDIC]

I was just making a point about colonialism. But that is not my main point, which is India was created by British imperialism. While countries in east Asia were not. Korea was a kingdom before Japanese occupation. So was Vietnam before French, Burma before British, etc. Vietnam, Burma and Korea existed as a country before being colonialized. India didn't existed as a nation such as Vietnam, Burma or Korea.

I am talking about an united entity which includes all of current landmass and the people residing there since ancient times. I don't find any of those in your so called United China in 221BC. So, Manchu created a united China including Tibet and Xinjiang. One one hand Chinese claim ethnic minorities are insignificant in Chinese civilization but at the same time you claim Empire given to you by these non-Hans. Too confusing logic.

Who existed as nation before it was imported from Europe? Even the Hans never existed as single entity everytime since 221BC. (refer to the map I posted above).

 

[faithfulguy]

I am talking about an united entity which includes all of current landmass and the people residing there since ancient times. I don't find any of those in your so called United China in 221BC. So, Manchu created a united China including Tibet and Xinjiang. One one hand Chinese claim ethnic minorities are insignificant in Chinese civilization but at the same time you claim Empire given to you by these non-Hans. Too confusing logic.

Who existed as nation before it was imported from Europe? Even the Hans never existed as single entity everytime since 221BC. (refer to the map I posted above).

As I said, by your logic, than US was not a country until 1959 when Alaska and Hawaii become a state. So stop going over your failed logic.

What you describe above is an Indian civilization, which existed for thousands of year. India as a nation was created by the British.

Hans is an ethnic group, not a country. The country of China consist of an emperor until Republic of China was created in 1912. Vietnam also had their emperor. Thailand had a king, so was Burma and Korea. Japan had an emperor. These country had one single ruler that rule their country for a long time. India subcontinent consists of a bunch of small kingdoms and some larger empires until British come. Without the British, India subcontinent likely would be more fragmented.

AS I pretty much have prove beyond any reasonable doubt of India geographical expression, its time for us to end this discussion unless you have something else to contribute. Otherwise, do not repeat the same crap as this will make you look confused.

 

[Srinivas]

A good comparison for India would be Europe. Charlemagne has his empire in western Europe, so does that mean the nation of Europe existed? If its not for the British, Indian subcontinent would still consist of small kingdom and empires.

India is a reality , you people still cry about it like but hurt tradesmen ......

 

[INDIC]

As I said, by your logic, than US was not a country until 1959 when Alaska and Hawaii become a state. So stop going over your failed logic.

What you describe above is an Indian civilization, which existed for thousands of year. India as a nation was created by the British.

Hans is an ethnic group, not a country. The country of China consist of an emperor until Republic of China was created in 1912. Vietnam also had their emperor. Thailand had a king, so was Burma and Korea. Japan had an emperor. These country had one single ruler that rule their country for a long time. India subcontinent consists of a bunch of small kingdoms and some larger empires until British come. Without the British, India subcontinent likely would be more fragmented.

AS I pretty much have prove beyond any reasonable doubt of India geographical expression, its time for us to end this discussion unless you have something else to contribute. Otherwise, do not repeat the same crap as this will make you look confused.

You are again claiming China having a colonial history like of USA. USA was initially only for white people. Unlike Yuan or Qing who were non-Hans engineering an Han majority united China, America was initially created by white people for the white people and whites always remained in majority in America. So, don't repeat your bullshit again and again.

In ancient world nation or country meant a civilization, the new concept of nation state is imported from Europe. We had always referred India as Bharat while foreigners referred us as India or Hindustan.

 

[faithfulguy]

India is a reality , you people still cry about it like but hurt tradesmen ......

true, a reality because of British imperialism.

 

[INDIC]

India is a reality , you people still cry about it like but hurt tradesmen ......

Today there is only one India, Republic of India(Bharat Ganrajya) but there are two Chinas:- People's Republic of China and Republic of China. One China talking the help of Americans against another China.

true, a reality because of British imperialism.

China is already experimenting communism and democracy as two Chinas ROC and PRC and there should be more Chinas to experiment other forms of government like Constitutional monarchy, dictatorship, absolute monarchy, theocracy, federalism, unitary form of governments.

 

[faithfulguy]

You are again claiming China having a colonial history like of USA. USA was initially only for white people. Unlike Yuan or Qing who were non-Hans engineering an Han majority united China, America was initially created by white people for the white people and whites always remained in majority in America. So, don't repeat your bullshit again and again.

In ancient world nation or country meant a civilization, the new concept of nation state is imported from Europe. We had always referred India as Bharat while foreigners referred us as India or Hindustan.

But you were saying that the earlier dynasties such as Qin was not a country because its border did not encompass China's border today. Now, you are shifting the subject. Seems like you are dyslexic when you make your points.

As for your last statement about acient world, nation or country meant a civilization, that would be how as an Indian, you would try to rationalize the existence of India as a country. The fact is that Japan, Burma, China, Vietnam, Korea, and Thailand all existed as a country (not as a civilization, but a country) prior to the time of European imperialism. So a country to Indians is certainly a foreign concept, but countries existed for thousands of years in East and Southeast Asia. Ask your Vietnamese friends and they will tell you so.

Today there is only one India, Republic of India(Bharat Ganrajya) but there are two Chinas:- People's Republic of China and Republic of China. One China talking the help of Americans against another China.



China is already experimenting communism and democracy as two Chinas ROC and PRC and there should be more Chinas to experiment other forms of government like Constitutional monarchy, dictatorship, absolute monarchy, theocracy, federalism, unitary form of governments.

And you see how each other claim to be the only legitimate government and deny the other. That is a sign of one country. And one government cannot tolerate the existence of another.

 

[Srinivas]

true, a reality because of British imperialism.

You are the same people who worship mongol barbarian emperors ....... , India was a single country long before China was unified.

 

[INDIC]

But you were saying that the earlier dynasties such as Qin was not a country because its border did not encompass China's border today. Now, you are shifting the subject. Seems like you are dyslexic when you make your points.

As for your last statement about acient world, nation or country meant a civilization, that would be how as an Indian, you would try to rationalize the existence of India as a country. The fact is that Japan, Burma, China, Vietnam, Korea, and Thailand all existed as a country (not as a civilization, but a country) prior to the time of European imperialism. So a country to Indians is certainly a foreign concept, but countries existed for thousands of years in East and Southeast Asia. Ask your Vietnamese friends and they will tell you so.

Where I shifted the subject, my point is always the same. The countries you mentioned have a common culture but where is China's common culture, how 56 ethnic groups and homelands form the part of united Chinese civilization since 221BC.

And you see how each other claim to be the only legitimate government and deny the other. That is a sign of one country. And one government cannot tolerate the existence of another.

It simply means your people are not united as a one piece nation.

 

[AADHAAR]

China is as much "one" country race, as is all-black Africa being seen as "one" country.

The fact is PRC is an artificially and brutally tied together group of independent countries, which are all waiting to be released from the oppressive military grip of CPC.

That is also precisely the reason why a democratic and liberal PRC cannot exist ... it will fall apart, the moment you introduce freedom and liberty.

 

[Sonyuke_Songpaisan]

China is as much "one" country race, as is all-black Africa being seen as "one" country.

The fact is PRC is an artificially and brutally tied together group of independent countries, which are all waiting to be released from the oppressive military grip of CPC.

That is also precisely the reason why a democratic and liberal PRC cannot exist ... it will fall apart, the moment you introduce freedom and liberty.

India did not exist. India is a son of UK.