Leadership of PAF needs a healthy change !

[blain2]

Eyeless in Gaza,

Procurement issue is a small one. All that the PAF gets to do here is to provide a request to the vendors through the government, evaluate the equipment and then submit their recommendations to the government through the Ministry of Defence. Pakistan's problem is that while the military likes a lot of things, the GoP rarely has money beyond what is required for the upkeep/salary/pensions. This is not a unique problem in Pakistan, however its a bigger problem for Pakistan because the threats faced by Pakistan are more numerous than what others have to contend with yet there is only so much money available.

The decade of the 90s cannot be used as something to beat up the PAF about. The whole country suffered. Navy suffered just as much or more than the PAF. Army remained greatly immune because their high tech does not all come from the West.

I think this issue is being made out to be something greater than it really is and I really do not say so hoping to brush this under the rug, but in the overall scheme of things, inter-service and intra-service rivalry is fact of life. While things are improved, they are never perfect. This goes for the private sector in F500 companies and also goes on in more conservative militaries.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi EIG,

I am not saying what you stated in your first sentene. What I am saying is that the leadership position may change hands and if an engineer or a bomber pilot become the commander, then let him run the company as he thinks it ought to be run.

PAF command and control needs to change its thinking and direction----would the pilots give up their position of strength---heck no---there will be bloodied noses.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

blain2, the procurement process you described is pretty much what I thought it was, in which case there may be a more comprehensive approach needed, than just changing who heads an organization.

Mastan Khan, on what you said - i.e. the leadership position may change hands and if an engineer or a bomber pilot become the commander, then let him run the company as he thinks it ought to be run - I pretty much agree. I was debating the parameters of how who ought to head the corporation in the first place.

But anyway I have pretty much reached my level of incompetence in this discussion and am bowing out, unless someone has a specific query with reference to what I said.

Great discussion, though. Will continue to read it.

 

[sonicboom]

Hi,

Well look at it this way---so far the fighter jock has failed paf miserably---what more could go wrong if an engineer is made the commander---I would bet anything on it that the things may turn around for the air force.

I would go on a limb and say that anybody from any different dept in the air force other than from thefighter wing---if given the chance would turn things around for the air force in due time---but a chance has to be given so that we can decide which direction we need to take.

I 100% agree with you.

I feel pity on those who think that “They are the chosen ones, a special breed of men” and do not allow best brains to come on top.

If I understood correctly, a pilot commands a Squadron only when he becomes a Wing Commander, whereas officers of other branches lead hundreds of men right from day one.

I am looking forward to a day when an Engineer will become an Air Chief Marshal of PAF and hence making it a UNIFORM.

 

[muse]

As Pakistani armed forces become a more complex, technical, industrial force, perhaps a better way to think about this issue, while assuring continuity and a generally smooth transfer of personnel and skill from active combat forces to the defense industrial establishment upon retirement, we may consider establishing a regime that will require officers to master a advanced degree after achieveing the rank equivalent of major, we may also provide salary/pay incentives for a array of other technical or academic mastery or skills. This may better achieve what we seek, highly capable officers for the active combat sector and the defense production facitlities.

 

[pshamim]

Wow! What a thread and some emotional posts.

One needs to understans that Air Force is all about Science of Air Warfare. Naturally, the head of an Air Force must always be some one who is noy only an air warfare expert but has thorough knowledge of the tools which are used to conduct it.

I will definitely have a problem if a pilot is posted as the head of an engineering company, a medical doctor as head of Air Traffic Control, or a Transportation officer as chief of the metereology in the Air Force. God Forbid if an engineering officer as COAS is asked to suggest and decide the best strategy to defend against the enemy Air Force.

Pilots are not so called chosen people. They are those candidates who have gone through a very rigorous selection process to be a part of GD(P) branch. None of the others in non-flying branches have to go through this selection process. For those who do not recognize this fact, I may say the 45-50 candidates out of some 100,000 applicants are selected to join the Flying Academy every 6 months. Even out of this number hardly 20% succeed and get their wings. Same is not true for ground branches where a very relaxed selection criteria is used. Hoping and arguing for an engineer with no airwarfare background and no flying skills to be your next COAS will be sheer lunacy.

If some of the above emotional outbursts are accepted then what about someone with glasses, heart murmer, or other medical problems may also be considered and accepted as pilots. Why discriminate?

I may state that I find many of the posts above short on reality and long on ignorance.

I will request the proponents of this idea to identify an Air Force with a COAS who does not have Flying background. You have a whole world to find one-should be really easy!

 

[Manticore]

Wow! What a thread and some emotional posts.

One needs to understans that Air Force is all about Science of Air Warfare. Naturally, the head of an Air Force must always be some one who is noy only an air warfare expert but has thorough knowledge of the tools which are used to conduct it.

I will definitely have a problem if a pilot is posted as the head of an engineering company, a medical doctor as head of Air Traffic Control, or a Transportation officer as chief of the metereology in the Air Force. God Forbid if an engineering officer as COAS is asked to suggest and decide the best strategy to defend against the enemy Air Force.

Pilots are not so called chosen people. They are those candidates who have gone through a very rigorous selection process to be a part of GD(P) branch. None of the others in non-flying branches have to go through this selection process. For those who do not recognize this fact, I may say the 45-50 candidates out of some 100,000 applicants are selected to join the Flying Academy every 6 months. Even out of this number hardly 20% succeed and get their wings. Same is not true for ground branches where a very relaxed selection criteria is used. Hoping and arguing for an engineer with no airwarfare background and no flying skills to be your next COAS will be sheer lunacy.

If some of the above emotional outbursts are accepted then what about someone with glasses, heart murmer, or other medical problems may also be considered and accepted as pilots. Why discriminate?

I may state that I find many of the posts above short on reality and long on ignorance.

I will request the proponents of this idea to identify an Air Force with a COAS who does not have Flying background. You have a whole world to find one-should be really easy!

sir, i completely agree with you, now that x-man cleared a lot of misconceptions.COAS must always be a person from the fighter wing, not a docter or engineer as paf is primarily a fighting departement...atleast untill our industries of manufacturing develop



.. but some 'extra workload or posts' can be delegated.. it would give the pilots a chance to relax aswell.Financially strong pakistan plus an honest and equally capable foresight would have overcome most of the other problems very quickly

only one thing, other fields also have a lot of competition aswell, 8years back, when i took the medical college entry test, there were 10,000 applicants only in lahore, so we also felt the chosen ones... this made us confident.
many of my colleagues entered forces after completing their mbbs,[from colleges other than amc] and yes most of them got through without any serious competition... but it was not the case when they were in their mcat stages.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

My internet connection was down last night. So I could not follow all the excitement on this thread.

I would like to thank the administrators and forum members, who motivated me to continue. Otherwise, I had really decided to quit the forum, considering that the forum is ruled by some people and does not allow new entrants.

@x-man

I am not aiming to win a fight over you. Neither do I have any problem with my self-esteem. And I donot have any disrespect for pilots. And I donot have any personal grudges against PAF, nor do I have any personal gains/losses associated with it.

And I am not here to disrepute pilots. Please donot think like this. What I think is that pilots are not above humanity, and they can be told if they are wrong. Yes I know that pilots are highly respected people, and I respect them a lot too. But, this respect makes their necks stiff like metal rods. This is where pilots are wrong.

Let us keep this in mind while we continue the discussion in good faith.

The idea that Deputy Chief of Air Staff(Administration) should be a fighter pilot, so that he can manage how administration integrates with operations, seems quite illogical. This would mean that all departments should be handled by fighter pilots, so that they can direct their department to achievement of operations. A fighter pilot should be put in charge of sweepers and cleaners, so that he can ensure that cleaning of aircraft is given more importance than cleaning of offices or toilets?

Like any other good organization, every one in the Air Force knows that he is working towards one common goal, which is the achievement of efficient operations. You donot need a fighter pilot to come and tell them, that their efforts are directed to achievement of operations, they already know it. Their job structures are designed like that.

Considering the job of DCAS(Administration), if he is an expert in his own job, then he knows what direction to take, so that his efforts will contribute to better operations. How much food does the Air Force need? How many guards should be placed at the gates? How should PAF send paychecks to banks? How many houses are to be built? Are the contractors using the right materials in buildings? How should PAF win a law suit that some land owner filed against it? Are the schools/colleges in PAF Bases being managed well? How to stop the recent wave of robberies, taking place at a certain place? Which runway needs repair? How to make the electricity distribution system more efficient? The runway lights on a certain Base need repair? How to ensure proper health care of officers/men and their families?... are some glimpses of the responsibilities of Administration Branch in PAF. It is clear that it is not only a fighter pilot that is suited to handle these. And when ever some of these things, will have an effect on the operations of the Air Force, any normal officer can identify it. It does not require an Ace fighter pilot to do it.

And about PAC Kamra. The heads of individual factories are engineers. What about the top post? the Chairman? Yes, in the past engineers have been given its top post. But it is the current norm, that only a pilot can occupy the post? is'nt it? . And engineers are not expecting this post anywhere in the foreseeable future.

Let me remind you again, that I am talking about CURRENT trends.

You see @x-man. Isolated incidents, like a tp/heli pilot assuming some commanding position are there. But, I am mainly concerned with the overall thinking of PAF. The thinking which states that fighter pilots are jack of all trades, and can occupy any post at any time. You will have to agree with me, that this starts right from PAF Academy. From the last 12 years, it has become a norm, that the highest appointment given to a cadet (i.e Academy Under Officer), will always be taken by a cadet who is a pilot. Now come to think of it. The job of the senior most cadet, is to look after the discipline and daily routines of the cadets in the Academy, which has no concern with flying at all. Does this require being a pilot?. And then, as we go up in the Air Force, we see this thinking in almost all leadership positions. The Commanding Officer of Cadet's Wing at PAF Academy, is always a pilot. His job is to ensure the discipline, physical fitness and grooming of cadets. Does this require being a pilot? ... and so on ... The recently created post of Commanding Officer of Support wing at all PAF Bases (responsible for vehicles, logistics and related stuff), is also taken by pilots. The overall incharge officer of Officers Mess, is also a pilot. How would you explain it?

My criticism of fighter pilots is not baseless. They really do want to keep a complete control of PAF in their own hands, starting right from PAF Academy. As far as operations are concerned this is perfectly all right, but there are many other departments too. From a pilots perspective, it is the right thing to do. It is really difficult to accept faults in your own self. And specially, when the traditions have been going on for decades. And then pilots are one the most respected people in Pakistan. Their necks are already very stiff. Try forgetting this stiffness for a while, and then think on what I have to say. Think as if you are not a pilot. You will surely understand.

It would be grossly illogical to place Phds in cockpits. But expand your vision a bit more. In the same way , it is grossly illogical to make pilots direct the work of Phds.

There is another evidence to it. PAF is more than 60 years old. Many of us, common people know the names and deeds of PAF pilots. Yes, they did a wonderful job. They gave the most precious gifts to Pakistan, their lives. But, was it ONLY and ONLY the pilots who did wonderful jobs? I mean, seriously, I donot know the name of ANYBODY, who is considered a PAF hero, and who is not a fighter pilot. Where have the efforts of all others gone? Did they not work day and night, to ensure efficient operation?. Okay, let us consider a fictitious situation, that most of them were dumb idiots. But at least ONE of them should have made it to the list of heroes? But we have known nobody for the last 60 years? Why?

And there is a simple and plain answer to this. Inspite of all the noble and honorable deeds that pilots have done, they have been acting like feudals. And in a feudal system, no one's efforts are allowed to be projected other than the feudal lords themselves.

And as far as the top post of PAF is concerned, logics have been presented for and against it. I agree that the threats faced by PAF dictate a fighter heavy force. This presents a reason why the CAS should be a fighter pilot. But, then the top post has a lot more the do. The CAS enacts an overall vision for the Air Force, much like a President does for a country.

But then, discussing the top post of PAF is not the aim of this thread (please see the starting post of this thread).

Have a nice day !

 

[araz]

Hi Eyeless in gaza,

As the core business of paf is fighter wing----then they have miserably failed in procuring the proper equipment for the last 20 years. They have one excuse after another for not having the right equipment---ie fighter interceptor---regardless of what happened---sanctions---no sanctions---does anyone care---does my enemy care if I don't have a machine to fight them---heck no.

Now---you know---every pakistani loves their paf pilots---we have made them like " gods " and put them on a pedestal for the longest period of time, where we vow them and bow to their every whim. Just their presence amongst us and we are awe struck by their stature---.

But dig a little deeper, they are just ordinary people with ordinary decision making capabilities but absolutely extraordinary when you put strap them to an ejection seat---.

If PAF would have been flying the skies over india at their discretion---just like IAF does over pakistan, whenever they please to---there would have been public slaughter of IAF air marshall's on the streets of any town hindustan---no IAF officer could have walked the streets of the respective towns in their uniforms.

It is only us pakistanis that we love our flyers beyond any reason of sanity.

Have anyone worked for a large corporation which asks the new hires what is wrong with the system as they see it---.

Normally the people from the same background would lie if they see any faults and deficiencies in their leaders and senior officers so as to protect their group and not to bring shame to their superiors. In simple english it is called a ---COVER UP---a very normal practise in any corporation where people from the same background are promoted for the top job. Maintain the STATUS QUO---make no waves---let things roll as they may.

Same old---same old---makes things stagnant---moldy---and less efficient. It is the csorporate law of failing preposition.

mastan Khan
There we go again!! What does it take to make you relaize that even ACM can only recommend to the Government about procurement. Anyone who thinks that PAF has any control over the purse and a will to buy equipmentat their own behest is in cloud Kuckoo Lannd. You send your recommendations to the Government and wait. I think you are totally wrong in blaming PAF top command on this count.
You have also very conveniently forgotten the sanctions which were imposed on us . Yes France may have been open to us and we made a reasonably good deal with them, only for them to hike up the price to an extent that it was unaffordable for PAF. i know you will harp on about the price of your security, but believe me Pakistan did not even have the money to cement the deal. Now that is not PAF,s doing.
Your statement about PAF pilots is also not true. We respect and honour people like muradK and Pashamim and X man along with fatman for their seniority and wealth of knowledge that they possess. Heck the last time I checked it was still a armed forces forum that i was on___ not some gupShup forum. Their are other peopple like Blain2, Neoand others who are respected for the knowledge that they bring. But the last time i checked__ both Muradk and Pshamim were entirely human. in this case mastan khan, respect has been given because we felt it was deserved, not because they demanded it.
PAF will whether you like it or not never be able to achieve that level of superiority to fly unchallanged over India , but to the best of my knowledge , and please enlighten me if that is not the case___ neither does IAF. they have a numerical and material superiority and will always retain this. thinking of anything else will be wishful dreaming!!
I dont work in a big industrial concern to answer your other statments, but you really need to have a reality check. PAF is really constrained not in its decision and planning strategy but financially. That remains the fault of our governments rather than PAF.Blame the person who holds the purse here mate!!!
WaSalam
Araz

 

[sonicboom]

pshamim

Naturally, the head of an Air Force must always be some one who is noy only an air warfare expert but has thorough knowledge of the tools which are used to conduct it.

And that's not the issues at hand. Please go back and read author’s thread once again.

I will definitely have a problem if a pilot is posted as the head of an engineering company, a medical doctor as head of Air Traffic Control, or a Transportation officer as chief of the metereology in the Air Force. God Forbid if an engineering officer as COAS is asked to suggest and decide the best strategy to defend against the enemy Air Force.

Once again you are off the mark and acting as illogical.

Please enlighten me with one example for the best or any successful strategy made by any Air Chief of PAF to defend against the enemy Air Force.

1. Was it the decision made by Asghar khan in 1965 to speak to his counterpart in India offering that he would not use the PAF if Air Marshal Arjun Singh did not use the IAF?

2. Or the decision to send ill fated formation to attack Halwara in 1965 with only 3 aircrafts instead of 8 as originally designated with disastrous results in spite of the requests from the base commander and all the higher ups in between to the Air Chief to cancel this attack. And in case you don’t know, it was the base commander of Mauripur, who happened to be a pilot, and committed a serious blunder by not positioning the 8 aircraft in time and hence resulted in the total failure of this attack and loss of lives. This serious act of negligence not only went unpunished but the officer rose to the rank of an Air Commodore and headed the Operations Branch of the PAF.

3. Or was it the Air Chief in 1971 who said 'LET THE NAVY FIGHT ITS OWN BATTLES!

And lastly, is the Air Chief who makes all the decisions and strategies or the advisors under him assist him and the final operations are planned at base or squadron levels? In my opinion Air Chief is a manager whose solely job is to set the direction and vision and not to do the day to day job.

Pilots are not so called chosen people. They are those candidates who have gone through a very rigorous selection process to be a part of GD(P) branch. None of the others in non-flying branches have to go through this selection process.

No true. Let me quote you from one of Sir Muradk’s note: "I have 1 son who just became the OC of one of the finest SQD of PAF, 6 Nephews , 2 cousins, 1 is a Air Marshal other a AVM and my bother in LAW who was the last VCOAS."

First, I am thankful to him for being honest and sharing this information with us. This solidifies my suspicion that I always had about the selection process in ISB, the favoritism and how first priority and preference was given to sons/ daughters and relatives of the PAF elites (not the ranks). And that's one the reasons for high failure during training as most of them are 'Safarshi' duds to start with.

It seems to me a Family Air Force than a People’s Air Force. So don’t tell me about the strict selection process.

 

[x_man]

The idea that Deputy Chief of Air Staff(Administration) should be a fighter pilot, so that he can manage how administration integrates with operations, seems quite illogical.

So you are saying that administration is separate from operations and a good or a bad administration has no consequence on operations?? I am sure that next time I ask my Admin or Accounts officer to brief me on Base Air defense plan ( planning the deployment of SAMs, AAA, Crotales and other assets) while keeping in mind the Air support plan already in place…I am sure that he will be able to give me a very encouraging answer….Or whom shall I ask that how long a particular FOB can administratively support( including weapons, fuel, spares etc etc ) the deployment of two fighter squadrons ? Or who decides that do we need 50 or 70 aircraft shelters at a new base……

There are million of operational requirements that are dealt and decided by DCAS( Admin) ……The problem is that you think that Admin only revolves around Schools, hospitals, houses and other dhobi problems…NO SIR…You aren’t looking at the bigger picture that DCAS Adm has to deal with. If you have the opportunity, then someday just walk into his office or talk to his staff and have look at the kind of projects that this office is handling….And if you still think that any Admin officer can deal with those then I have nothing more to say on the subject.

And about PAC Kamra. The heads of individual factories are engineers. What about the top post? the Chairman? Yes, in the past engineers have been given its top post. But it is the current norm, that only a pilot can occupy the post? is'nt it? . And engineers are not expecting this post anywhere in the foreseeable future.

In Kamra all the factories are lead and RUN by MDs who are all from the Engg branch. Chairman is a post that just has a supervisory role and he heads the PAC board that includes three board members. 1. Financial 2. Commercial , and 3. Technical. Chairman who is administratively under Ministry of Defense, in his supervisory capacity also determines the means of sustainability of Airforce . PAC Chairman is a post that can be headed by either a GD or an Engg guy. In the past it has been chaired by Engg guys as well. Now the argument that why GDP , then the next argument will be that why the Engg ??? I think we will keep running in circles and will not be able to decide….

Yes I do agree that its been headed more times by a GD guy than an Engg…..But as PAC board can be chaired by either of branches and both have got their chances, so I don’t think that it should be really a matter of concern.

Isolated incidents, like a tp/heli pilot assuming some commanding position are there. But, I am mainly concerned with the overall thinking of PAF.

Even at present and in the past as well, lots of Tpt guys have made it to Air Vice Marshal and it’s a very common practice. I explained you the reasons in last post that what’s their operational limitations and why can’t they be promoted to principle staff officers. I also compared our Heli set up with IAF, doesn’t need any further explanation.

From the last 12 years, it has become a norm, that the highest appointment given to a cadet (i.e Academy Under Officer), will always be taken by a cadet who is a pilot.

When CAE (college of Aeronautical Engg) shifted from Karachi to Risalpur , ever since then it has been tradition that Academy Under Officer is made alternately from GD and Engg branches. I witnessed the same while I was a cadet. As you are saying that now only GD guys are made AUO, well I don’t have a clue about that. And if you are right then I must say that it’s a gross injustice….Anyways I will check with any cadet or an instructor from there, if I happen to meet one.

I donot know the name of ANYBODY, who is considered a PAF hero, and who is not a fighter pilot. Where have the efforts of all others gone? Did they not work day and night, to ensure efficient operation?. Okay, let us consider a fictitious situation, that most of them were dumb idiots. But at least ONE of them should have made it to the list of heroes? But we have known nobody for the last 60 years?

You started with Admin branch, then PAC, then Base commander, then squadron pilots, then Heli / Tpt pilots , then cadets at academy and now you have started to question and doubts about the pilots who won medals during 65/ 71 war. Which area you are going to hit next??? Any clues ??

A lot of officers from every branch get TBt, SBt etc each year for their performances during peace time…Now your question that why not in war, then what about squadron leader M. E. A. Bhuya , Squadron leader Aurangzeb Malik, Squadron leader Abdul A K Raja, Flight Lieutenant Sajjad A Khan, Corporal Ghulam Abbas, Corporal M Omar Ali, Corporal Sher Mohammad, Corporal Afzal Abbasi…..and I can go on and on with Non GD officers / men who were awarded for their valor in 65/71 wars for various reasons…..If you do not know anyone of them, it doesn’t mean that they weren’t honored.


Its a simple concept that why pilots win more medals?????? Because by very nature of airforce, it’s only the pilots who go and fight out there….Is it too difficult a thing to understand??? Unlike Army where officers and jawans from every arm fight together, in Airforce it’s only the pilots that fight. While numerous elements support the fighter operations, in the end it all comes down to the proficiency of man in cockpit and how he fights.

And there is a simple and plain answer to this. Inspite of all the noble and honorable deeds that pilots have done, they have been acting like feudals. And in a feudal system, no one's efforts are allowed to be projected other than the feudal lords themselves.

From America to Pakistan, to India to Japan to wherever: Fighter Pilots allover the world have in general the same kind of nature. They are show offs, boastful about their adventures, party guys, think they are the best and always right, arrogant, risk takers, laugh on stupid jokes, cry on silly things, they are kiddish, always seeking attention from opposite sex and many more common traits. I don’t say that I am very proud of these traits but I guess that, that’s how one becomes in this job….it all comes as a part of package.

I have happened to meet many pilots and ground personnel from many airforces, and it’s funny that every ground guy from every airforce had never anything good to say about their pilots….They all had their issues…..and due to many peculiar pilots ( above) traits, it does make it sometimes difficult for ground guys to work and mix with the flyers. On a lighter note, perhaps its pilots only who can work with pilots, therefore they keep hold of all positions..

While it is true that pilots do want to grab every opportunity here, but one must also see and acknowledge the kind of a culture prevailing in our country. How can pilots stay unaffected from the effects of general society? They are only humans and do get influenced by whatever is going around them. I hope and pray that someone will change things some day not only in airforce but in Pakistan as well….Until then we all will continue to blame each other ….

But then, discussing the top post of PAF is not the aim of this thread (please see the starting post of this thread).

If you ask pilots, they also have million things to say against Engineers and other branches…Yesterday I thought about opening a thread about their issues as well but then refrained…..Its my Airforce and my home….And every home and every organization has issues…..But we don't discuss an in-house issue in front of the whole world and make tamaash of everything….

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As a starter I'll offer the same disclaimer that EIG did, not associated with the AF or military, and therefore feeling my way through the discussion based on arguments that seem logical to me.

pshamim

Please enlighten me with one example for the best or any successful strategy made by any Air Chief of PAF to defend against the enemy Air Force.

1. Was it the decision made by Asghar khan in 1965 to speak to his counterpart in India offering that he would not use the PAF if Air Marshal Arjun Singh did not use the IAF?

2. Or the decision to send ill fated formation to attack Halwara in 1965 with only 3 aircrafts instead of 8 as originally designated with disastrous results in spite of the requests from the base commander and all the higher ups in between to the Air Chief to cancel this attack. And in case you don’t know, it was the base commander of Mauripur, who happened to be a pilot, and committed a serious blunder by not positioning the 8 aircraft in time and hence resulted in the total failure of this attack and loss of lives. This serious act of negligence not only went unpunished but the officer rose to the rank of an Air Commodore and headed the Operations Branch of the PAF.

3. Or was it the Air Chief in 1971 who said 'LET THE NAVY FIGHT ITS OWN BATTLES!

How can you argue that an engineer would have made better decisions? This is a rather speculative argument, and one that reflects more upon the perceived failures (without an exhaustive analysis of why these decisions were made we cannot offer accurate comment on them) of certain people in charge at the time, and not necessarily upon the policy of having a fighter pilot become an ACM.

And lastly, is the Air Chief who makes all the decisions and strategies or the advisors under him assist him and the final operations are planned at base or squadron levels? In my opinion Air Chief is a manager whose solely job is to set the direction and vision and not to do the day to day job.

The ACM is responsible at the end of the day for operational decisions, even if on the advice of the Director Operations - how can you expect the ACM to correctly give the go ahead (or not) on an operational decision if he has no clue about operations?

No true. Let me quote you from one of Sir Muradk’s note: "I have 1 son who just became the OC of one of the finest SQD of PAF, 6 Nephews , 2 cousins, 1 is a Air Marshal other a AVM and my bother in LAW who was the last VCOAS."

First, I am thankful to him for being honest and sharing this information with us. This solidifies my suspicion that I always had about the selection process in ISB, the favoritism and how first priority and preference was given to sons/ daughters and relatives of the PAF elites (not the ranks). And that's one the reasons for high failure during training as most of them are 'Safarshi' duds to start with.

It seems to me a Family Air Force than a People’s Air Force. So don’t tell me about the strict selection process.

How can you argue that none of them went through the selection process and were qualified to be selected and achieve the positions they did?

Once again, a spurious and speculative argument.

 

[sonicboom]

In Kamra all the factories are lead and RUN by MDs who are all from the Engg branch. Chairman is a post that just has a supervisory role and he heads the PAC board that includes three board members.

So if the Chairman post for Kamra is a supervisory role in your opinion, then same is true for the Air Chief. He is also in a supervisory role and can be either a pilot or an engineer. All he is doing to supervise various departments headed by Air Vice Marshals.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

PakistanMyheart:

Thank you for rejoining the discussion.

If I may, while your last post was excellent, I would like to request that comments such as 'But, this respect makes their necks stiff like metal rods', not be used, just as comments against lawyers and civilians should not be used by the others.

A comment such as the above generalizes and tars everyone with the same brush, and is in poor taste.

Thanks.

 

[chindit]

Xman said :

I am sure that next time I ask my Admin or Accounts officer to brief me on Base Air defense plan ( planning the deployment of SAMs, AAA, Crotales and other assets) while keeping in mind the Air support plan already in place…I am sure that he will be able to give me a very encouraging answer….Or whom shall I ask that how long a particular FOB can administratively support( including weapons, fuel, spares etc etc ) the deployment of two fighter squadrons ? Or who decides that do we need 50 or 70 aircraft shelters at a new base

X Man, suppose you have a transport pilot (or a helicopter pilot), who had commanded a transport squadron in forward areas, who had done several staff courses, perhaps even spent extensive time studying fighter operations, logistics etc - with impecable qualifications - with one exception - he never flew a jet fighter. I would tend to belive even though he didnt fly fighters, he still has the qualifications to head a combat base. But i get the feeling that fighter pilots are aghast at such an idea.