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KSA to the first world

Islam came to abolish such a thing as race. Racism and Sectarianism is so dense here you can cut it with a knife.

Perhaps a flag can be offered that says Muslim Ulema? as an option instead of flags of countries. Serious note. Since I cant send a Private message to you..........
 
look buddy i was just adressing the common misconception here

there are racists arabs present who claim every thing,arab and non arab, credit must be given to those non arabs who served equally, and yeah i agree we should say who sacrificed for islam, everybody has sacrificed equally, we shouldnt say prophet muhammad was arabic and islamiccalender is arabic calender etc because even prophet said, not to distinguish arabs from non arabs
Some of members here were constantly humiliating Arabs, so it must be mentioned that the people who they respect and look up to are Arabs as well as non Arabs. I hate such conversations but you get to understand I will be racist when others are. Its unbelievable how some of our brothers here blame Arabs for everything happens to ummah! I want to ask you all a question and I demand an honest answer... where were Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Bangladesh...etc when we were fighting for Alaqsa in 1948, 56, 67, 73 and 82?
Is Al Quds Arab's or Muslims' responsibility?

---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------

Islam came to abolish such a thing as race. Racism and Sectarianism is so dense here you can cut it with a knife.
Brother for my sake just neglect S-19. plz
 
Oh for f**k sake what are you lot on about ?

Do you (Pakistanis) even look around you and see what Pakistan is facing :

- Religious bigotry and Sectarianism

- Extremism

- Moral Corruption and Nepotism

- Incessant civil-miltary feuds

- An already tarnished image further nose-diving

- Hefty sanctions looming over the horizon as soon as the US leaves Afghanistan

- The possibility that the Afghan Taliban may turn to fighting Pakistan once they've dealt with USA.

- Even our closet ally, China, getting vary of the rot that is crippling us.

- Honor killings, Acid attacks and instances of domestic violence against our women increasing by the year.

- Our economy is in tatters.

- The Law and Order situation in Pakistan is in shambles.

- The common Pakistan man, woman or child is suffering on an unprecedented scale.

And despite all of that you (the Pakistanis) have the temerity - nay, the insolence, of telling others how they should run their countries. What the f**k are you so proud of ?

Barring sporadic examples of individual brilliance what has Pakistan given to the world in the past 20 or so years ?

What is the nuclear bomb going to do ? Do you honestly think that the Generals in GHQ are fools who would commit our armies to Arab countries in the case of a 'Greater Israel' and leave us utterly defenseless against India on the East and the Taliban on the West...not to mention invite unprecedented sanctions against Pakistan by Israel's lap dog !

How, in all honesty can you think that the Arab countries who have performed remarkably better than Pakistan and have got their acts together in the past 1-2 decades and started shunning extravagance for hardwork and have invested back into Their People, are so utterly incapable of protecting themselves that they'd be begging us for Help. Are you effing Stupid !
 
Some of members here were constantly humiliating Arabs, so it must be mentioned that the people who they respect and look up to are Arabs as well as non Arabs. I hate such conversations but you get to understand I will be racist when others are. Its unbelievable how some of our brothers here blame Arabs for everything happens to ummah! I want to ask you all a question and I demand an honest answer... where were Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Bangladesh...etc when we were fighting for Alaqsa in 1948, 56, 67, 73 and 82?
Is Al Quds Arab's or Muslims' responsibility?

---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------


Brother for my sake just neglect S-19. plz

and where are arabs when we fight for kashmir?? the whole palestinian issue is actually an arab issue and arabs are seeking support from countries like pakistan etc and pretending that its an islamic issue, but they never speak on another muslim issue that is kashmir kashmir issue, also arab cuntries supported kafir countries of nato to destroy libya and now syria

even arab country like yours jordan has accepted israel
 
and where are arabs when we fight for kashmir?? the whole palestinian issue is actually an arab issue and arabs are seeking support from countries like pakistan etc and pretending that its an islamic issue, but they never speak on another muslim issue that is kashmir kashmir issue, also arab cuntries supported kafir countries of nato to destroy libya and now syria

even arab country like yours jordan has accepted israel
I should have mentioned that my question merely directed to specific people... so, don't expect me to answer you...
 
Some of members here were constantly humiliating Arabs, so it must be mentioned that the people who they respect and look up to are Arabs as well as non Arabs. I hate such conversations but you get to understand I will be racist when others are. Its unbelievable how some of our brothers here blame Arabs for everything happens to ummah! I want to ask you all a question and I demand an honest answer... where were Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Bangladesh...etc when we were fighting for Alaqsa in 1948, 56, 67, 73 and 82?
Is Al Quds Arab's or Muslims' responsibility?

Well, not trying to be a show off because i actually despise show offs, but since you asked "where were Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Bangladesh...etc when we were fighting for Alaqsa in 1948, 56, 67, 73 and 82?
Is Al Quds Arab's or Muslims' responsibility?"
, i would like to suggest that you at least do a little research about Pakistan and what we have done for the Palestine and it is actually more than what you Arabs have done for the Kashmir cause.

Here, just to give you a little jump start, after reading all of this let me know if any Arab country sent its soldiers and pilots to assist Pakistan in its cause to liberate Kashmir.




someone posted this valuable info:


Here is the Serial Number and Name of both the Pakistani Pilot and his Iraqi Hunter and the Israeli Pilot and his MirageIIICJ, below proves my point that it is confirmed PAF pilots shot down IDF/AF without losing one of their own (PAF)

Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam
Aircraft type: Iraqi Hawker Hunter
Aircraft Serial Number: S. No. 702

Israeli Pilot: Gideon Dror
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Mirage IIICJ
Aircraft Serial Number Serial No. 6660

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IDF / Air Force Aircraft Losses and Ejections by Aircraft Type-www.ejection-history.org.uk

Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam
Aircraft type: Iraqi Hawker Hunter
Aircraft Serial Number: S. No. 702

Israeli Pilot: Itschak Glantz-Golan
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Vautour A
Unit/Serial No. no. 14


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Chronological Listing of Israel
Pakistani Pilot: Flt Lt Sattar Alvi
Aircraft type: Syrian Air Force MiG-21F
Unit/Serial No. Serial No. 1863

Israeli Pilot: Captain M Lutz
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Mirage-IIICJ
Unit/Serial No. No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor
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IDF / Air Force Aircraft Losses and Ejections by Aircraft Type-www.ejection-history.org.uk


Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam
Aircraft type: Jordanian (RJAF) Hawker Hunter
Aircraft Serial Number: No. 1 Sqn

Israeli Pilot: Capt Hanania Bula
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Mystère-IVA
Unit/Serial No. 116 Sqn

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Chronological Listing of Israel
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Jan J. Safarik: Air Aces Home Page
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Chronological Listing of Israel





Saiful Azam's Iraqi Hawker Hunter
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Read the full story about PAF pilots encounters with IDF/AF during the 1967 war
 
Pakistani Pilots in Jordan during Arab-Israeli war(s):


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A Sword For Hussain


By: Air Cdre Kaiser M. Tufail


Commitments under the newly signed pact with Egypt, as well as the prevailing atmosphere of anti-Israeli rage in the Arab world forced King Hussein bin Talal's hand at the outbreak of the Six Day War of 1967. Any doubts that he may have had about Jordan entering the war were overcome by a misleading telephone call he received from the Egyptian President at mid-day on 5th June. In a bizarre 'all is well' report, Nasser assured Hussein that scores of Israeli aircraft had been downed and that Egyptian armored columns were pushing across the Negev Desert for a link-up with Jordanian forces in the Hebron Hills. As a matter of fact, the Egyptian Air Force lay in smoking ruins after the Israeli Air Force had delivered a knockout blow! Oblivious of the factual position, King Hussein ordered his armed forces to attack immediately after Nasser's call.

Parked on the flight lines at Mafraq Air Base were Hunters of No 1 Sqn, the only fighter outfit of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF). Strapped in the cockpits since morning, the pilots were eagerly awaiting a go-ahead for strikes against Israeli airfields at Kfar Saba, Kfar Sirkin and Natanya. The past few days had been occupied with preparation of maps and low-level flight profiles. The excitement and tension had reached a pitch and all pilots were ready to get into action.

Flt Lt Saif-ul-Azam of the Pakistan Air Force, who had been on secondment with the RJAF since w November 1966, was to lead one of the strike missions. At about 0900 hrs, he was told to hand over the lead to a Jordanian pilot and rush to a Hunter that had been readied for an air defence mission. Saif hurriedly strapped into the other aircraft and, along with his wingman Lt Ihsan Shurdom1, stood on standby eagerly waiting for the hooter to sound the 'scramble.'

A few days earlier, Saif and his other PAF colleague, Flt Lt Sarwar Shad had been called by the RJAF Commander to ascertain their position in case of war. Both promptly offered their services, while suggesting that the opinion of the Government of Pakistan be obtained for further details. It was tentatively decided that they would fly as 'volunteers' in Jordanian uniforms. Official Pakistani clearance to fly only air defence missions was received just in time, which had required Saif to hurriedly switch roles on the tarmac. After half an hour of impatient waiting in the cockpit, Saif belatedly learnt that the Israeli Air Force had struck Egyptian airfields. Sitting helplessly on the ground waiting for orders was nerve racking and, all pilots squirmed in their cockpits to seek revenge. Mafraq was sure to be attacked, as everyone guessed, so it was some relief when two formations finally took off at 1150 hrs and headed west. A short while later, in a show of solidarity, a formation of six Iraqi Hunters over flew Mafraq on their way to Lydda airfield in Israel. The heightened air activity reached a crescendo when orders were relayed for all aircraft to scramble as fast as they could. Saif and his wingman Ihsan were the first to get airborne in the fervent melee, followed by four more Hunters. ATC announced the bad news that one of the Hunters flown by Major Feras had been strafed and had caught fire. The unfortunate pilot could not get out of the burning aircraft.

After take-off, Saif contacted the radar for further instructions. The radar controller announced a vector and the interceptors headed in the required direction. Soon, another vector was announced and the pair changed heading. It was not long before the controller declared that there were too many aircraft and it was difficult to make out who was who. Saif was, therefore, asked to be on his own. Noting the controller's dilemma, Saif called out to his wingman to stay close. The visibility in the hot, dusty desert was barely a mile and there were no signs of enemy aircraft. Saif rechecked with the controller if there were any aircraft approaching Mafraq. His fears were confirmed when he received a reply in the affirmative.

Turning around, Saif headed for the Base. About four miles short, he spotted four aircraft flying in battle formation at low level. The camouflage of the aircraft seen through haze seemed similar to that of the Iraqi formation that had passed overhead some time ago, so Saif was led to believe that they must have been returning after the raid. Following them for a while, he watched with amazement as they changed into echelon formation, getting ready for an attack! Realizing his mistake in recognizing the Israeli Mysteres, which looked similar to Hunters from a distance, Saif promptly maneuvered behind the trailing attacker, the No 4 of the formation. As the aircraft was turning for the attack, Saif closed in and let off a smugly-aimed fusillade from the Hunter's four immensely powerful 30mm cannon. The Mystere2 caught fire and its pieces started to fly off; Saif had to pull up to avoid hitting the debris. Moments later, the aircraft crashed near the perimeter fence of the Base, with the pilot Capt Hanania Bula still inside the stricken aircraft.

Looking around for other attackers that he had lost during the shooting, Saif noticed the smoke trail of two Mysteres charging off towards the west at full power. As Saif turned hard for them, Ihsan, called a bogey on the right. Saif directed Ihsan, who had tenaciously stuck around during the tight maneuvering, to break off and go after the singleton while he went for the pair on the left.

Saif managed to get behind the trailing Mystere, which had started thrashing about to spoil his aim. During the frantic turn reversals, Saif fired four times but his bullets stayed off the mark. Desperate for a kill, Saif was at wits end when he noticed his quarry loosening the turn and straightening out for home. Closing in to about 600 feet, Saif squeezed the trigger for a fifth time. The Mystere started to trail smoke from its right wing as the Hunter's guns scored hits. The aircraft ducked down and, before Saif could confirm if it had been terminally dispatched, he saw the leader of the enemy pair turning to attack him. Low on fuel and ammunition, Saif wisely decided to disengage and turn for Mafraq. Reckoning that Mafraq runway had been rendered unfit for use, Saif called all aircraft to hold north of the airfield while he checked the feasibility of landing there. His call for joining instructions was surprisingly answered by a welcome clearance and, the controller followed it up by declaring the runway fit for landing. A sharp eared Ihsan suspected something wrong and instantly broke into Arabic to check the identity of the controller. He also wanted to know the name of Ihsan's dog, which was some sort of a crosscheck code. The Jordanian controller then came up on the radio and warned them not to land at Mafraq. Ihsan's presence of mind saved the pair from the trap of an Israeli spoofer, who had cleared them for a landing that was certain to be an unqualified wreck.

All the airborne aircraft diverted to Amman International Airport, which had not yet been visited by the Israelis. The pilots were lucky to have landed shortly before the Israeli Air Force struck the airport. Their aircraft, however, could not escape destruction as they were caught parked in the open. The pilots helplessly watched as Mysteres delivered attacks with a new type of rocket-boosted 'dibber' bomb, which penetrated deep into the runway surface and cratered it badly. The attacks were delivered from shallow dive angles, which minimized exposure to AAA guns. Civilian facilities on the airport were strafed and badly damaged. Several transport aircraft and helicopters were also destroyed. After an eventful morning, the pilots gathered at the Operations Headquarters in Amman to exchange notes about the encounters that had taken place. Ihsan had claimed a Mystere while his leader was busy chasing the exiting pair. One of the Hunter pilots, Capt Wasfi3, had ejected near Amman after having been shot down by an Israeli Mirage. RJAF's sole fighter squadron had put up a spirited fight, though the pilots felt dejected over the losses suffered. The worst blow was the destruction of 20 Hunters on the ground at Mafraq and Amman International. Many of these were being serviced on the flight lines after their morning missions; invaluable expertise in the shape of many technicians was thus lost as well. Sadly, the small RJAF had been virtually wiped out.

An hour later, the pilots were surprised to have in their midst, King Hussein, who had come to cheer them up for their brave effort in Jordan's first major air war. He was cognisant of his decision that had brought upon the Jordanians the tribulation that they now faced. He explained the circumstances in which he had decided to go to war. His message was that of faith and hope in the face of adversity. PAF's Assistant Chief of Staff (Operations), Air Cdre A Rahim Khan, who was visiting Jordan at that time, was also there to express his solidarity with the RJAF personnel. As if to unburden himself of the debt he owed to the pilots of No 1 Sqn, King Hussein again visited them in the evening. Turning to Saif, he told him to get into his car, a privilege that was extended only to the most honored compatriots. They drove off to the main hospital to see PAF's Flt Lt Shad who was convalescing after an appendicitis complication. Later, the King along with Saif drove off to Mafraq, about 40 miles from Amman. Saif recalls that during the drive, King Hussein kept reassuring him like a younger brother. He said that it was a minor setback in a battle and not a defeat in a war, words that were most encouraging and inspiring for Saif. The King was hopeful that more could be done as the war had not yet ended. With young men like Saif around, all was not lost and the fight could go on. After all Saif had been, quite literally, a sword for Hussein. Thus armed, the King was unwilling to give up easily.

During the drive from Amman to Mafraq Air Base, King Hussein had told Saif that he had talked to President Abdal-Rehman Arif and offered the services of his pilots to carry on the war from Iraq. President Arif had agreed to provide the aircraft, and soon orders were issued for a move to Iraq. Around midnight, an expedition consisting of RJAF pilots and support personnel moved in a road convoy, on their way to the cryptically named H-3 Air Base5 located about 40 miles inside Iraq's western border. The night in the desert was cold and the ride was rough. The past 24 hours had been turbulent and the physical and mental strain was showing. Partly dozing, partly awake, everyone seemed anxious to get to his destination and become part of the war effort again.

The seemingly endless drive continued as it dawned on the morning of 6th June. The quiet of the desert was broken only by the noise of vehicles and an occasional Iraqi military convoy heading west. Tired and hungry, the party prepared for a roadside breakfast halt. A large number of military transports were dispersed on both sides of the road and, Iraqi troops were resting before their onward journey to the Israeli border. All of a sudden, a formation of four Vautour6 light bombers, escorted by a pair of MirageIIIC fighters roared overhead, flying east along the road towards H-3. The RJAF convoy promptly halted and everyone dispersed in the desert, just in case the returning raiders decided on a shot of opportunity at the gathering.

As expected, about fifteen minutes later the egressing Israeli aircraft pulled up and started strafing the Iraqi vehicles. After a single pass, they continued onwards with their egress7. Two vehicles caught fire and several soldiers were injured. It took some time for everyone to gather again. There were outbursts of rage and, some questioned the wisdom of traveling during daytime. One senior commander suggested a 24-hour halt in the desert, but the young pilots did not like the idea at all. There was much grumbling and disagreement.

Saif, being the lone foreigner, kept out of the discussion, but two young pilots approached him and wanted to know his intentions. Saif said that since he was from the PAF he was obliged to obey orders to reach H-3 at the earliest and, if the party decided otherwise, he would take a ride on Iraqi transports plying up and down. He was in a bit of a quandary too, as he could not interfere with the contingent commander's decision. While discussions were going on, a group of youngsters suddenly appeared and asked Saif to take over command of the contingent! Embarrassed about the situation he found himself in, he argued that a coup d'etat in the middle of the desert that too during war was the last thing he could contemplate. He was, however, firmly told that since they had decided to arrest and even shoot the commander, it was logical for the next senior to take charge. It took some persuasion on Saifs part to cool things down.

Saif met the commander separately and tried to explain that the youngsters were rearing for a return bout with the Israeli's, and their emotional state had to be understood. He also explained that under the circumstances, a certain amount of risk had to be taken. The commander was quick to grasp Saifs argument and ordered everyone to board the transports. A serious situation was thus averted.

The RJAF contingent reached H-3 safe and sound. The Iraqi Air Force personnel were effusive in welcoming them. Before they could move off to their billets, however, the Base Commander revealed a change in plans. It was decided that in view of the vulnerability of H-3, as demonstrated in two previous raids, operations would be undertaken from Habbaniyah Air Base, about 50 miles west of Baghdad. H-3 was to be used as a staging base.

Habbaniyah Air Base, with the meandering Euphrates on one side and the picturesque Lake Habbaniyah on the other, had been host to three Hunter squadrons, including a conversion Unit. A nearby satellite airfield, commonly known as 'Plateau,' housed a Tu-16 bomber squadron. Both Bases were under the command of Col Hamid Shaban8.

After setting course in the afternoon, the contingent reached Habbaniyah at 2100 hrs. For about two hours, nobody seemed to know what to do with the new arrivals. Finally, arrangements were made to house them and some time later, food was served. As it happened, the Base had learnt of their arrival only a short while ago, and messing arrangements for a large contingent took some time. True to Arab tradition, the food was sumptuous and sizzling and the Iraqi hosts were most friendly and hospitable. After a hearty fill, the exhausted and drowsy visitors retired, somewhat hesitant of what lay in store for the next day.

A gentle nudge and a whispering voice woke up Saif early at dawn on the morning of 7th June. Looking around, he found the same Iraqi Lieutenant who had met him the night before. The young officer conveyed the Base Commander's message, "He needs four pilots to volunteer for the first mission to take-off shortly and you are requested to lead!" Saif had heard of such detailing of volunteers as party jokes in the PAF but this was the first time it was being played on him. Once at the Base Headquarters, the RJAF pilots were hurriedly introduced to the senior commanders and other officers. There was no time to be wasted. Intelligence information (more plausibly, simple guesswork) had indicated that a large formation of Israeli planes was expected to repeat a strike on H-3. Saif was, therefore, to lead a four-ship formation to intercept the raiders.

Saif immediately got down to briefing the pilots. His formation consisted of Lt Ihsan Shurdom, his trusted wingman of RJAF, along with Lt Samir and 2nd Lt Mohammad of Iraqi Air Force. It was a truly international group, meeting for the first time over a cup of tea. Not knowing much about each other's experience and operational training standards, they were committed to be comrades-in-arms. They were ready to engage the enemy, a desire sustained by their common Faith. While they were having late breakfast, they received a message9 to take-off immediately. Within minutes, the four ship Hunter formation was on its way to H-3. Climbing to 25,000 ft, the formation members maintained radio silence till the controller announced, "Expecting enemy attacks on H-3." Moments later, he called out confidently, "Leader, there is a big formation pulling up over H-3, descend and engage it."

The Israeli formation consisted of six aircraft. A section of four Vautours was led by the Deputy Squadron Commander Maj. Shlomo Keren in a two-Beater, with Capt Alexander Meltz as his navigator. The other members were Col. Yehezkel Someh (Base Commander of Ramat David Air Base Capt Yitzhak Golan and Lt Avshalom Friedman in single seaters10. Two Mirages doubled up as armed escorts, each carrying two bombs; Maj. Ezra Dotan led the pair, with Capt Gideon Dror as wingman.

The Hunters were five miles short of H-3 when Saif started diving down towards the airfield and called out for arming the guns. Soon, he spotted two Vautours approaching from the west. "Right boys, follow me and let us descend faster." Ihsan chipped in, "Sir, how about punching the drop tanks?" Saif realized his mistake and ordered all to jettison their 230-gallon tanks. Engrossed in spotting the aircraft, Saif had overlooked a vital check but was relieved to know that his formation members were alert.

As Saif maneuvered to get behind the Vautours, Samir called out, "Two Mirages behind you." Looking back, Saif saw the pair about 4,000 feet behind, turning for them. In an instant, Saif decided to split his formation, with himself and Ihsan (No 2) going for the Mirages while Samir and Muhammad (Nos. 3 & 4) went for the Vautours. Turning hard to the right, Saif cramped the Mirages for maneuvering space, forcing them to pull up for a 'yo yo.' Reversing his turn, Saif noticed one of the Mirages still turning right, apparently having lost sight of the Hunters. Saif managed to turn inside the Mirage and started to catch up fast. At the extreme limits of range, the Mirage could not light up its fuel guzzling afterburner, or else it could have easily out-run the subsonic Hunter. In the event, the Mirage had to face the Hunter's lethal cannon. Uttering 'Bismilla11,' Saif pressed the trigger for about two seconds. The bullets landed squarely on the wings, as sparks flew off the metal skin. Suddenly, the Mirage was engulfed in a big ball of fire; the pilot, Capt Dror, ejected in full view of the Base personnel watching from the ground. "Leader, you have finally won the bet, it's a Mirage," called Ihsan on the radio. "You bet it is, but stop the fun and look out for more," responded Saif. Several months ago, Saif had a dream in which he saw that he had shot down an Israeli Mirage. When he narrated his dream in the squadron, the pilots seemed so impressed that instead of laughing it off as a joke, they got into an animated discussion on the basics of air combat. Ihsan had then bet that if Saif ever shot down a Mirage in real life, a precious gift and a grand party would follow. Now, in the middle of air combat, Ihsan had not lost his wit and humor one bit!

Breaking off to the right after downing the Mirage, Saif spotted a Vautour coming head-on, about 2,000 feet below. Without batting an eyelid, Saif inverted his aircraft and pulled through for a 'split-S.' The maneuver can go awry if there is insufficient clearance from the ground, but Saif pulled back on the control stick to the point of almost blacking out. When he leveled off, he found himself behind the Vautour, charging in with a very high rate of closure despite the speed brakes opened and throttle pulled back to idle. The distance was now only 200 feet, too close for the safety of his own aircraft were the much larger Vautour to explode like his previous victim. Deciding not to miss the chance, Saif opened fire and after three bursts of his cannon, saw parts of the aircraft fly off. His own aircraft juddered as if hit by something; Saif had to look around to be sure he was not being shot at.

Capt. Golan lost control and ejected from his disintegrating Vautour. Saif called up the ATC tower to spot two white parachutes, which he thought to be those from a two-seat Vautour. Actually, the chutes were those of Dror, who had ejected from the Mirage at a higher altitude a little earlier, and Golan who escaped low from the Vautour Both now found themselves parachuting in formation, ironically, Dror still escorting Golan!

Low on fuel, Saif was planning to exit when he heard Samir call out excitedly, "Leader, l have shot him, I have shot a Vautour, I have shot a Vautour." Saif had to quieten him down, lest he block vital communication on the radio. In the melee, Ihsan also called that he had shot a Vautour.

As Saif started to gather the formation, he saw a Mirage (flown by Maj Dotan) chasing a Hunter right over the airfield. It was Muhammad's Hunter and, it was trailing smoke. Turn by turn everyone called him on the radio to eject but he did not respond. The aircraft went into a shallow dive and hit the abandoned oil tanks near the airfield. The sad incident overshadowed the otherwise successful mission.

Everyone's fuel was marginal after such heavy demands on the engines. Samir's fuel state was most critical so he decided to land at H-3, despite some damage to the runway. Saif and Ihsan made it to Habbaniyah, but only after a cruise at high altitude. Spotting the airfield in unfamiliar area was, luckily, not a problem as the road to Habbaniyah was conspicuous in the desert. Allowing Ihsan to break-off and land first, Saif followed through a straight-in approach.

A large crowd had gathered at the flight lines. As Saif switched off and came out of the aircraft, he was lifted up and paraded all over the place. Everyone was shouting, "Death to Zionism, Death to Israel." Saif had tears of joy in his eyes. He recalls thanking Allah for the success and also prayed for young Muhammad, whom he had met barely for half an hour before the fateful mission.

Some airmen had also gathered around Saif's Hunter and, were expressing their amazement at the nerve of the intrepid pilot who had rammed into the Israeli aircraft when he ran out of ammunition! They could not have been blamed for their mistake because the Vautour's flying debris had damaged the Hunter's wingtips and, some metal pieces were embedded in its fuselage after the close-range shooting.

When Saif reached the squadron, he was told that two Israeli aircrew had been captured at H-3 and were under despatch to Baghdad. He was more interested in his wingman Ihsan who was nowhere to be seen, despite the fact that he was supposed to have landed earlier. No one seemed to give him a satisfactory reply, except that Ihsan would be there shortly. Saifs concern was short-lived, as Ihsan arrived after about fifteen minutes with a grin on his face. Saif discovered the truth when Ihsan confessed that he had landed at the nearby 'Plateau' airfield instead of Habbaniyah. The epilogue to the raid on H-3 was a report received from Saudi Arabia confirming the crash of a two-seat Vautour-IIN on its northern border with Iraq. Both the pilots had been found dead. Capt Keren and Capt Meltzer12 had tried to nurse the stricken aircraft back through a safer route after being hit over H-3, but their luck ran out. If one were to go by Lt Samir's radio calls alone, his claim of a Vautour could easily prevail but, in all earnestness, it could also have been Ihsan's kill. In either case, one of the two pilots' claim could additionally qualify as a 'damage' of yet one more Vautour.

The plethora of accomplishments by the Israeli Air Force did not prevent a scathing indictment of the conduct of operations over H-3, in the post-war debrief. Col Eleizer Cohen, in his book Israel's Best Defense alludes to it by stating, "The damage to H-3 was peripheral, and the losses a killed pilot and navigator, two pilots captured and three aircraft downed were heavier than at any other base." Maj Gen Mordechai Hod, the Commander of the Israeli Air Force is said to have remarked that the critique of H-3 fiasco made him feel almost as if he had lost the war. Whatever factors may have been discussed during the debrief, there is little doubt that the Israelis were aware of the H-3 rout being the handiwork of a determined team, under the able leadership of a first class PAF pilot. That Mossad was ignorant of this fact would be under-rating the capabilities of a notoriously efficient intelligence outfit.

Saif-ul-Azam's exploits in the 1967 Arab-Israeli War were a display of true grit in an otherwise dismal showing, which made him a hero in several countries. The Government of Jordan conferred the prestigious Wisam-al-Istiglal (Order of Independence) on him, while the Iraqi Government conferred the Now al-Shuja'a (Medal of Bravery). The Pakistani Government rewarded him with a Sitara-i-Basalat (Star of Courage). Earlier, in the 1965 Indo-Pak War, he had shot down an Indian Gnat" for which he was awarded the Sitara-i-Jur'at (Star of Valour). He has the unique achievement of downing four different types of aircraft while flying with three different Air Forces. He eventually donned the uniform of yet another Air Force when he transferred to his new homeland, Bangladesh in 1972.

1. Shurdom later rose to be the Chief of Staff of RJAE
2 The aircraft was the Mystere IVA, though it has been erroneously mentioned in some writings as a Su.per Mystere.
3. Wasfi was shot down near Amman by a Mirage-IIIC flown by Capt Oded Sagee after a long chase, following RJAF's raid on Kfar Sirkin airfield.
4. Saif means 'sword' in Arabic.
5. A chain of pumping stations for an oil pipeline from Kirkuk in Iraq, to Haifa in what is now Israel, was denoted by Hseries during the time of British Mandate, hence the nearby Air Base named thus.
6. Vautour means 'vulture' in French.
7. This minor incident narrated by Flt Lt Saif-ul-Azam is also described from an aerial vantage point by Maj Herzle Bodinger, the leader of the Vautour formation, in Israel's Best Defense by Col Eliezer Cohen (page 235). Bodinger later rose to be the Commander of Israeli Air Force.
8. Shaban later rose to be the Commander of Iraqi Air Force.

---------- Post added at 04:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:07 AM ----------

Now when was the last time Jordan evr sended its pilots to asist Pakistan in its wars with indians?
 
Well, not trying to be a show off because i actually despise show offs, but since you asked "where were Turkey, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Bangladesh...etc when we were fighting for Alaqsa in 1948, 56, 67, 73 and 82?
Is Al Quds Arab's or Muslims' responsibility?"
, i would like to suggest that you at least do a little research about Pakistan and what we have done for the Palestine and it is actually more than what you Arabs have done for the Kashmir cause.

Here, just to give you a little jump start, after reading all of this let me know if any Arab country sent its soldiers and pilots to assist Pakistan in its cause to liberate Kashmir.




someone posted this valuable info:


Here is the Serial Number and Name of both the Pakistani Pilot and his Iraqi Hunter and the Israeli Pilot and his MirageIIICJ, below proves my point that it is confirmed PAF pilots shot down IDF/AF without losing one of their own (PAF)

Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam
Aircraft type: Iraqi Hawker Hunter
Aircraft Serial Number: S. No. 702

Israeli Pilot: Gideon Dror
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Mirage IIICJ
Aircraft Serial Number Serial No. 6660

unledmbr.png

IDF / Air Force Aircraft Losses and Ejections by Aircraft Type-www.ejection-history.org.uk

Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam
Aircraft type: Iraqi Hawker Hunter
Aircraft Serial Number: S. No. 702

Israeli Pilot: Itschak Glantz-Golan
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Vautour A
Unit/Serial No. no. 14


9b274b99d3a04a27baf94c9w.png

Chronological Listing of Israel
Pakistani Pilot: Flt Lt Sattar Alvi
Aircraft type: Syrian Air Force MiG-21F
Unit/Serial No. Serial No. 1863

Israeli Pilot: Captain M Lutz
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Mirage-IIICJ
Unit/Serial No. No 5 Air Wing based at Hatzor
e22af3e408464747b5fa53a.png

IDF / Air Force Aircraft Losses and Ejections by Aircraft Type-www.ejection-history.org.uk


Pakistani Pilot: Flt. Lt. Saiful Azam
Aircraft type: Jordanian (RJAF) Hawker Hunter
Aircraft Serial Number: No. 1 Sqn

Israeli Pilot: Capt Hanania Bula
Aircraft type: IDF/AF Mystère-IVA
Unit/Serial No. 116 Sqn

447433d6373440b596deeaa.png

Chronological Listing of Israel
36f48df1206345a192f3a6c.png

Jan J. Safarik: Air Aces Home Page
13f0e9a1f4754efb94f0f28.png

Chronological Listing of Israel





Saiful Azam's Iraqi Hawker Hunter
7096aba5d14d4af9b203c44.png

hunter.jpg



Read the full story about PAF pilots encounters with IDF/AF during the 1967 war

I never denied the Pakistani pilots bravery against Israeli fighters however what angers me is that Pakistanis tend to neglect all other Arab pilots who they themselves also shot down Israeli jets. While Pakistani pilots shot down 4 Israeli jets Arab airforce pilots shot down even more Israeli jets.
 
Oh for f**k sake what are you lot on about ?

Do you (Pakistanis) even look around you and see what Pakistan is facing :

- Religious bigotry and Sectarianism

- Extremism

- Moral Corruption and Nepotism

- Incessant civil-miltary feuds

- An already tarnished image further nose-diving

- Hefty sanctions looming over the horizon as soon as the US leaves Afghanistan

- The possibility that the Afghan Taliban may turn to fighting Pakistan once they've dealt with USA.

- Even our closet ally, China, getting vary of the rot that is crippling us.

- Honor killings, Acid attacks and instances of domestic violence against our women increasing by the year.

- Our economy is in tatters.

- The Law and Order situation in Pakistan is in shambles.

- The common Pakistan man, woman or child is suffering on an unprecedented scale.

And despite all of that you (the Pakistanis) have the temerity - nay, the insolence, of telling others how they should run their countries. What the f**k are you so proud of ?

Barring sporadic examples of individual brilliance what has Pakistan given to the world in the past 20 or so years ?

What is the nuclear bomb going to do ? Do you honestly think that the Generals in GHQ are fools who would commit our armies to Arab countries in the case of a 'Greater Israel' and leave us utterly defenseless against India on the East and the Taliban on the West...not to mention invite unprecedented sanctions against Pakistan by Israel's lap dog !

How, in all honesty can you think that the Arab countries who have performed remarkably better than Pakistan and have got their acts together in the past 1-2 decades and started shunning extravagance for hardwork and have invested back into Their People, are so utterly incapable of protecting themselves that they'd be begging us for Help. Are you effing Stupid !


Barring sporadic examples of individual brilliance what has Pakistan given to the world in the past 20 or so years ?

Pakistan for many years was the largest contributor to the UN Peacekeeping mission and has sent personnel to many countries in conflict zone. Pakistan also defeated the Soviet Union helping to liberal CARs and Eastern Europe from the Soviet Union.

Pakistani Doctors and other professionals have also contributed a lot, I can begin to name some but for sake of time won't do that now.


For god sakes man Pakistan liberated Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, after Pakistan played a major role in defeating the Soviet Union in AFG. This history alone many countries could never claim. I do agree Pakistan has a long way to go.
 
I never denied the Pakistani pilots bravery against Israeli fighters however what angers me is that Pakistanis tend to neglect all other Arab pilots who they themselves also shot down Israeli jets. While Pakistani pilots shot down 4 Israeli jets Arab airforce pilots shot down even more Israeli jets.

In 1967, Egyptian airforce was almost wiped out completely when it was attacked while on ground. In 1973, the Arab:Israeli ratio was something like 100:1. While in the case of pakistan in both wars, the ratio was nil:4 and nil:6. That, my dear, is the difference. :)

---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 AM ----------

Pakistan for many years was the largest contributor to the UN Peacekeeping mission and has sent personnel to many countries in conflict zone. Pakistan also defeated the Soviet Union helping to liberal CARs and Eastern Europe from the Soviet Union.

Pakistani Doctors and other professionals have also contributed a lot, I can begin to name some but for sake of time won't do that now.


For god sakes man Pakistan liberated Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, after Pakistan played a major role in defeating the Soviet Union in AFG. This history alone many countries could never claim. I do agree Pakistan has a long way to go.

Fact: A german minister gifted the head of ISI back then a piece of the Berlin wall as a symbolic gift. :)
 
In 1967, Egyptian airforce was almost wiped out completely when it was attacked while on ground. In 1973, the Arab:Israeli ratio was something like 100:1. While in the case of pakistan in both wars, the ratio was nil:4 and nil:6. That, my dear, is the difference. :)

---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 AM ----------



Fact: A german minister gifted the head of ISI back then a piece of the Berlin wall as a symbolic gift
. :)

I didn't even want to bring that up. No need, let them remain in the dark. Even Germany acknowledged Pakistan helped liberate East Germany.
 
That is not my point about who shot down more jets, my point is that you Arabs claim Pakistanis did nothing for Palestinians cause, for Al-Aqsa Mosque, that Pakistanis did do anything when Israel was butchering Arab armies and Air force, pouncing on the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians all at the same time.

You are replying to the very post on which I said "I do not deny Pakistan's pilot's bravery"....
 
Pakistan for many years was the largest contributor to the UN Peacekeeping mission and has sent personnel to many countries in conflict zone. Pakistan also defeated the Soviet Union helping to liberal CARs and Eastern Europe from the Soviet Union.

Pakistani Doctors and other professionals have also contributed a lot, I can begin to name some but for sake of time won't do that now.


For god sakes man Pakistan liberated Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, after Pakistan played a major role in defeating the Soviet Union in AFG. This history alone many countries could never claim. I do agree Pakistan has a long way to go.

Yes and those are the few sporadic things that have created some Goodwill for Pakistan in the world and yet very few of those have been concentrated or institutionalized enough to right all the many other wrongs that our leaders through their corruption and idiocy and our People through their indifference to our Nation, have done to Pakistan.

As for defeating the Soviet Union...yes we were indeed instrumental in that but at what cost ? Because of our policies of mixing religious fervor with violence we managed to create entire generations of Afghans and Pakistani Tribals who know nothing but war and are terribly misfit to lead civilian lives in a progressive and liberal way. The same extremism has not only been confined to Afghanistan or our Tribal Areas but has infected Pakistanis throughout Pakistan. The same extremism that has its roots in Mr.Zia's disastrous policies of Islamization that made a mockery out of Islam and ended up creating the same atmosphere of exclusivity and minority suppression that Pakistan was created to fight against. Look around you - there was a time that Paksitanis from all religious affiliations and both genders could walk freely the streets of Lahore or Karachi without being target by religious zealots on some self-styled mission of purging the society of morals ills....can you honestly say that the same can be said of todays Pakistan where it isn't enough that we've declared Ahmedis as Non-Muslims we also had to drive them out of their country or people from amongst us would kill them. Where our women have indeed been reduced to second class citizenry. Do you honestly think that this is Jinnah's Pakistan ? The one that was supposed to be a model for the rest of the Muslim World and the World at large to appreciate and perhaps even emulate; where religious and legal pluralism was a guarantee, where our women would shoulder the burden of what it requires to take a nation forward side by the side the men, where Islamic social justice and the equality of man were to be practiced in the spirit of the Quran, where we'd show the world that Islam too provides a viable economic, political and social model that is worthy of being mentioned in the same breadth as some of the best systems of Governance out there - the Pakistan you see out there....is it truly any of those things ? We have failed...we've failed miserably and the last thing we should be doing right now is advising others on how to run their countries.
 

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