Killing India’s hidden ‘Cold Start’ strategy

[deckingraj]

Exactly! So why would you expect Indian authorities to either accept or deny anything?

ps: Lets leave the derogatory language out to keep discussions civil and gentlemanly. Thanks.

Thanks for the initiative....Xeric your turn to reciprocate....B/w our military brass has already denied it though have not our right rejected it....He has said we have different contingency plans depending upon what adversary will do....I would say very diplomatic denial, what do you think???

Regards

 

[deckingraj]

edit: My 2000th post! For posterity sake!!

Congratulations....... Hopefully i will defeat you at 3000 even if i have to troll a bit

 

[lionheart1]

How exactly? By forcing your opponent to upgrade her military hardware, forcing her three services of the Armed Forces to work together, reducing her reaction time even further to reach the borders . If you think thats working than please believe what ever you people think but clearly Indian propaganda is having its effect on you guys

we dont concentrate on enemy's power, we counter enemy's tactics by improving our capability , adopting new technology, and tactical improvement . and the fire power and weaponry required to defeat enemy are being procured-ed . and if our opponent upgrading we are upgrading twice as fast

 

[Markus]

^^ Ok let me make it easy for you.

CS or whatever offensive strat is deadly. Even if it wont succeed or dont go as planned it would bring destruction. If the thing is executed and it goes as planned, india is the winner and if it is screwed (and it probably will) still Pakistan would be the one to suffer more damage because of the strat depth thingy, the only difference this time would be that india would also be fighting a survival war as Pakistan would have launched its offensive punch.

Now having said that, personally in my opinion CS is a death wish. i could have called it a dud (as are your grenades) but than i should give that much credit to your planners. As per the CSD you people should be able to paralyse Pakistan and 'crush' its forces BEFORE the international drama starts, but guess what, none of you can garuntee that this wishful thinking would go as planned and would not turns out into a nuclear disaster (the Nuclear Mutually Assured Destruction - MAD shyt). So the CS exists but how successful would it be on execution should be left on time. At the moment what we could do is to make some assumptions and guesses to the eficacy of this strategy. Now what does the reality on ground tells us; it tells us that though india is capable of unveiling the CSD (so the 'frightened' Pakistan) but for it to succeed in totality india still has to go leaps and bounds (so the CSD - a dud argument).

Moreover, even if the CSD fails it would still bring destruction to our borders which we (a peace loving Nation) dont want to heppen.

So in short, even if the CSD is 'Frozen DOA', it would still hurt us and as we better we prepared for it so the 'paranoia'.

Understand or cyclestand?


Now, you people either tell the world that CSD is just some piece of shyt ******* at some corner (i mean some concrete acts that could satisfy all) or let us 'enjoy' the so called 'paranoia', psyops or some other shyt you may like to call it!

Seems nice piece of literature, so I am thanking your post, makes somewhat sense. But...........

1). Your presumption that such an operation will fail is backed by "notion". Past military engagements show nothing of what the Indian military may "try" to do in the future.

2). Cold start, gone wrong or gone right for India, will ultimately go wrong for the whole region if Pakistan decides to use tactical nukes on Indian IBG's (assuming they manage to penetrate Pakistani territory). Such an attack on Indian soldiers (even if on Pakistani soil) will revoke Indian no-first-use policy and such a move will invite Indian retaliation. So nightmares about MAD may come true here if situation goes out of control.

Here, we are assuming that Pakistan decides to take the extreme step of using tactical nukes on our soldiers on your territory. Again a "notion".

US/NATO will come into the picture here.

3). Cold start is not meant to paralyze and crush your forces. Its meant to keep some sections of your strike corps pre-occupied and also to provide some cover time for the Indian strike corps to get into its place. As you know, Indian strike corps will take more time to get the logistics in place.

4). As you say India is capable of unveiling CSD but will have go leaps and bounds, so theoretically speaking India can pull this off.

5). CSD is India's military doctrine but is now not recognized at the government level to fend off US pressure and to deny Pakistan an opportunity not to send forces from its eastern border to its western border.

And lastly, your insistence that India roll back this policy in front of the whole world is baffling and actually can be seen as a excuse for your country to not remove any more troops from the Indian border and engage them in WOT.

 

[deckingraj]

we dont concentrate on enemy's power, we counter enemy's tactics by improving our capability , adopting new technology, and tactical improvement . and the fire power and weaponry required to defeat enemy are being procured-ed . and if our opponent upgrading we are upgrading twice as fast (it is easy when our opponent are beggars. begging all around the world for aid and weapons)

Such a good intelligent reply ruined by the bolded part....The best punch is to deliver it with dignity...Now do the rightful and edit your post, please

 

[prototype]

People here would agree that i am a mirror. And you just saw your own face in it, which was not pretty.

Mirror mirror on the wall,tell me who is dumbest of all

Mirror-who other than myself,who have no identity

Thanks God that you know that Pakistan doesnt have 'No first use policy'.

Got issues with that? Go burn yourself up! As you can do a shyt about it.

Ya i can definitely shyt on it

How would i know, i only pretend to be dumb.

I forget about that

You didnt spit in our mouth, but your COAS did spit in his countrymen's and Nations mouth when he said that “There is nothing called ‘Cold Start’. As part of our overall strategy we have a number of contingencies and options, depending on what the aggressor does. In the recent years, we have been improving our systems with respect to mobilisation, but our basic military posture is defensive,” the Army Chief told The Indian Express. :

Is not this what Army is claiming from the start,who made up CSD a big deal,ur people urselfs

Heard about the story "here came the wolf",u nation is just the same like that,here come the CSD,here came the CSD

i salute your ignorance.

Hats off to your intellect.

Thanks for that,i appreciate it very much

When the US brought up Pakistan's case with the ever stubborn india and india bent over to it, yes i call that hammering. Though i dont know what you would call it?

Which issue,can pin point one,Calling to to dismatle the terror network,not mincing anything about CSD,not ready to interfere in case of the K-word,were did they hammered us,and by the way ,r u such incompetent,u need U.S help to hammere India and then claim it with proudness,is ur military that worthless

Evidence would require a bit of googling and a lots of brains, both of which you obviously lack!

So far i learned a lot about it from u,how much brain it require

 

[gubbi]

Thanks for the initiative....Xeric your turn to reciprocate....B/w our military brass has already denied it though have not our right rejected it....He has said we have different contingency plans depending upon what adversary will do....I would say very diplomatic denial, what do you think???

Regards

From what I understand about CSD, unlike the Sundarji doctrine, CSD doesnt call for a strike into deep into enemy territory with an intention of dismembering the state. That would be a phyrric victory to say the least!

CSD is more of a political tool than anything else, a means to achieve diplomatic victory. CSD would ensure a rapid grab of some enemy territory to be used as a bargaining chip in later negotiations. CSD would be employed politically to ensure that the enemy doesnt feel threatened existentially and also not to trigger their nuclear threshold, which fortunately is not as low as some members would like to believe!

CSD or some other form of it is here to stay. They may not call it CSD, but it would still be similar to what CSD is about. India cannot afford to dismember Pakistan, in our own interests! And that matters.

 

[SQ8]

Gubbi.. you guys pushed me into this..
Afterall.. nothing is more fun seeing you fellows jump into every darn thread with only negativity about Pakistan...then making a little personal poke.. and watching the dual ID's at work.

After all.. I only changed my posting style after watching most of our countrymen at work..
And markus.. I used to think before posting about India and its issues everytime I made a post relating to them..I had a certain respect for your country.. and expected the same for mine.
But that works both ways.. so yes..now with you Indians..7/10 times just start with Im dealing with"cynical anti-Pakistan thickheads".

So yes.. Thanks to your own people.. at times.. I have stopped thinking when it comes to posting about India.

Gubbi.. what about all those men..
will they just sit in those barracks all the time.. waiting for go??
Will the tank shells be de-greased all the time?? rusting away..
Will that land grabbing be unnoticed? :S
What? .. Pakistan will just sit there??.. that's stupid to think so..if that is what you are implying..
We notice movement.. we wont fire up the siren.. go all out.. ?
Cold start.. in all its verbose ideas and grand concepts..is nothing more than glorified blitzkrieg...
All the hubbub was the result of hype of cold start and its much publicized theme.. When this was practiced in theory.. in war games, in exercises.. Our top brass found themselves in an all too familiar classroom lesson on WWII German tactics...something that was negated back in the 70's.
Right now.. the PA is moving into complete network centric warfare(the PAF is already there)..

Cold start in land-warfare.. is too expensive.. and too impractical to implement effectively today.. this doctrine would have been excellent..back in the 80's.. today.. its was obsolete the day it was published.
And .. lemme think.. is military intelligence DEAD on our side?
lemme give you an example..
back in 2001..India tried a deceptive move of faking a major attack from the south.. while amassing forces in Kashmir for a strike...unfortunately for them.. we knew about it.. and the whole plan was apparently scrapped(but not the push in the south...they kept building it up, we told the Yanks if they come.. and it doesn't work out the way we want it.. we will nuke em..and the rest is history).

 

[deckingraj]

From what I understand about CSD, unlike the Sundarji doctrine, CSD doesnt call for a strike into deep into enemy territory with an intention of dismembering the state. That would be a phyrric victory to say the least!

CSD is more of a political tool than anything else, a means to achieve diplomatic victory. CSD would ensure a rapid grab of some enemy territory to be used as a bargaining chip in later negotiations. CSD would be employed politically to ensure that the enemy doesnt feel threatened existentially and also not to trigger their nuclear threshold, which fortunately is not as low as some members would like to believe!

CSD or some other form of it is here to stay. They may not call it CSD, but it would still be similar to what CSD is about. India cannot afford to dismember Pakistan, in our own interests! And that matters.

Exactly that's my view....if we look at our acquisition in last 5-7 years and planned for next 5-10 years all points to this strategy. This denial is very diplomatic. Yes there is no CSD but yes we have contingency plans for adversary actions...In simple we deny CSD as a strategy but who knows what's all there in our piggy bank .....As per me all this denial is to out the pressure back on our Pakistani counterparts who have been denying US pressure using CSD as an excuse....what do you think????

 

[Xeric]

First of all thanks for lowering the testosterone around here.

What do you think???

What i think is that the CSD is hurting no one but at the same time hurting all of us, including you.

CSD is just a strategy but if you read my post #82 you would be clear on my understanding of the situation. The CSD whether applicable or not may prove disaster. And then statements like 'Two Front War' from you people makes the matters worst. i must say you people do a terrible job when it comes to show someone something and also when it comes to hide something from someone.

Fair enough. Since now there has been official confirmation from our military brass that CSD is not their doctorine can we expect PA to launch offensive in N. Waziristan?? Shall we????

Lolz..not so fast.

Coming over a mike and saying few words is surely eating back your words but it cant be termed as a measure where one could be satisfied that nothing like CSD exists. You people also need to toned down your emotions. Two-Front-War, Limited-Offensive, man WTF is this BS.

You either play fair or you play dirty, hypocrisy has no place here.

Officialy india never acknowledged CSD. Please care to provide a source which made you think otherwise. If we have not acknowledged it at any given time then how come what you said above is true????

You exercised the stuff man, what else do you want to do? Practice it real time against Pakistan?

That is the problem. We are not dependent on US so please suggest how is it too much pressure. In fact all India has done is denied CSD existence and pressure is back on you...Now you are short on one excuse for not going into N. Waziristan, so May God Bless Pakistan.....

Agreed. india is capable of sustaining US pressure and it has shown such in the past, but then the likes of Hoolbroke taking it up with you people and you trying portraying yourselves as angles (read defensive), well that's known as bending to pressure.

May be the timings were not correct - the US taking it up with you and you then blaming it over the thinktanks, but it did work in terms of accepting the US pressure. You can feel free to disagree.

I am sorry but you seems to be contradicting...Above you were saying that GOP is using CSD as an excuse for not going in N. Waziristan. Here you are saying that CSD is a genuine concern. Would appreciate if you can clarify a bit more.....

i didnt get you? Arent these two the same things?

May be you missed a 'not' between 'is a' and 'genuine concern', if that be the case, please go through post #82, it would clear up certain things.

Well if you look from Indian lens then believe me it is working...but that's fine in case you don't...Why bother breaking our Euphoria, if we are wrong then it is going to work in your favor during war, no???

When i look through the indian lense, here's what i see.

You spelled out CSD.

You exercised it and told us that it is workable.

You did the IBG thing.

You then brought in the Two Front War.

You did sonay pe suhaga by spelling out an absurd thing like 'Limited War'

You made us going 'paranoid' over the stuff.

Then came the turning point and the US knocked at your door.

And then you took your words back, but you didnt do anything credible enough to take us out from our so called 'paranoia'.

And we still are not going in N Waziristan and probably wont till the time we and the world in general is satisfied.

Savvy?

 

[Mirza Jatt]

Congratulations....... Hopefully i will defeat you at 3000 even if i have to troll a bit

i think there lies a tough competition ahead !!

 

[LAKHNAVI]

lol, very wrong way.



you lost kargil. what constitutes winning to you people? reclaiming most but not all of your land.




dude , so you agree kargil ( in particular) and kasmir in genral is Indian land. good

 

[gubbi]

So yes.. Thanks to your own people.. at times.. I have stopped thinking when it comes to posting about India.

I perfectly understand your POV. We are both from opposite sides of the border so there shall be differences in our opinions. That doesnt mean that we need to use derogatory language.
I do not doubt your or any of your compatriots' love for your country. In fact I appreciate that. A difference of opinion doesnt mean that I have to derogate 'you people' everytime we discuss issues. But disrespecting men and women in uniform is uncalled for.

We notice movement.. we wont fire up the siren.. go all out.. ?
Cold start.. in all its verbose ideas and grand concepts..is nothing more than glorified blitzkrieg...
All the hubbub was the result of hype of cold start and its much publicized theme.. When this was practiced in theory.. in war games, in exercises.. Our top brass found themselves in an all too familiar classroom lesson on WWII German tactics...something that was negated back in the 70's.
Right now.. the PA is moving into complete network centric warfare(the PAF is already there)..

You are right. But this kind of attack would be initiated only and only if Pakistan dares another military misadventure, like Kargil. India has never been the first to declare or initiate an open conflict with Pakistan.
The attack would entail multiple strikes along the border, in places Pakistan would least expect. The idea is to grab territory, any territory. With 8 strike crops, India can launch attacks anywhere along the IB. India can use all the corps at one time or it can use only a few depending on the element of surprise. Pakistani forces with their limited resources will not be able to counter all the strikes, let along initiate major thrusts in Indian territory. That is one of the reasons why Pakistani authorities are unnerved. Your military intelligence will be busy, but so will ours!

back in 2001..India tried a deceptive move of faking a major attack from the south.. while amassing forces in Kashmir for a strike...unfortunately for them.. we knew about it.. and the whole plan was apparently scrapped(but not the push in the south...they kept building it up, we told the Yanks if they come.. and it doesn't work out the way we want it.. we will nuke em..and the rest is history).

The 2002 stand off was a result of LeT attack on Indian Parliament. GoI then, lost temper and wanted to teach Pakistan a lesson. But the problem was who and where to attack? Not the GoP!

Think about it. LeT a fringe militant group with few infrastructure was not going to be a viable target. And if Indian forces did attack Pakistan, that would have led to a major war antagonizing even the moderates in Pakistan, a scenario which India clearly didnt want! So you tell me, where was India to attack? What targets?
That whole Op Parakram was a mess! It was a wise decision NOT to attack Pakistan then.

The idea now is to let Pakistani authorities handle LeT, which it helped create and sustain in the first place, so that they do not use your territory to stage another attack in India.

 

[lionheart1]

Gubbi.. you guys pushed me into this..
Afterall.. nothing is more fun seeing you fellows jump into every darn thread with only negativity about Pakistan...then making a little personal poke.. and watching the dual ID's at work.

After all.. I only changed my posting style after watching most of our countrymen at work..
And markus.. I used to think before posting about India and its issues everytime I made a post relating to them..I had a certain respect for your country.. and expected the same for mine.
But that works both ways.. so yes..now with you Indians..7/10 times just start with Im dealing with"cynical anti-Pakistan thickheads".

So yes.. Thanks to your own people.. at times.. I have stopped thinking when it comes to posting about India.

Gubbi.. what about all those men..
will they just sit in those barracks all the time.. waiting for go??
Will the tank shells be de-greased all the time?? rusting away..
Will that land grabbing be unnoticed? :S
What? .. Pakistan will just sit there??.. that's stupid to think so..if that is what you are implying..
We notice movement.. we wont fire up the siren.. go all out.. ?
Cold start.. in all its verbose ideas and grand concepts..is nothing more than glorified blitzkrieg...
All the hubbub was the result of hype of cold start and its much publicized theme.. When this was practiced in theory.. in war games, in exercises.. Our top brass found themselves in an all too familiar classroom lesson on WWII German tactics...something that was negated back in the 70's.
Right now.. the PA is moving into complete network centric warfare(the PAF is already there)..

Cold start in land-warfare.. is too expensive.. and too impractical to implement effectively today.. this doctrine would have been excellent..back in the 80's.. today.. its was obsolete the day it was published.
And .. lemme think.. is military intelligence DEAD on our side?
lemme give you an example..
back in 2001..India tried a deceptive move of faking a major attack from the south.. while amassing forces in Kashmir for a strike...unfortunately for them.. we knew about it.. and the whole plan was apparently scrapped(but not the push in the south...they kept building it up, we told the Yanks if they come.. and it doesn't work out the way we want it.. we will nuke em..and the rest is history).

how many day you can blackmail on your nukes. do you really think you can nuke india and leave happily. when we retaliate your country will be history. asleast we are devloping abm. when we lunch there will be nothing in between missile and the target . now hitech sanction are being lifted (from drdo, bdl hal) we can utilize many critical technology
developedfor pat-3 in our abm

 

[rafay321]

see the condition of urself ,then claim

You can't help yourself can u?

Pak army is not planning a 2 front war with declared nuclear powers. Our condition is that we are fighting and have almost defeated handful of terrorists with rocket launchers and Ak47s.

How does our condition match up with your two front war doctrine is beyond me and who do you think should be worried about nuclear strikes?

a) Pakistan whose in control of its foes now

b) India the unsecured paranoid state declaring itself to be ready for a 2 front war with 2 nuclear powers?

I think neither Pak or China has so bluntly declared its revised war planning. So you, my friend, should be worried.

thats is the exact mentality which indians are now well aware off.....dont have any dillusions, that you will even get a chance of nuking India, if the war reaches upto the scale that you are talking about. moreover, its the situation and environment in pakistan which is comparitively more dangerous with regards to nukes of both the countries.

Our mentality is clear. We do not want war with anyone. However, if India does not stop its kartoot then no body will be able to save India. Yeh we know we will be doomed too.

i will tell you one thing.. If Intelligence gathers that you are going to launch a nuclear missile ... get the fact straight then.. it will be India which will be launching the Nuclear Missile first.. not you.. India's First no use policy doesnt mean that we will launch the second strike.. It means the intelligence data is enough to launch the Nuclear strike...

Secondly if every one assume Cold start doesnt exist you are wrong...

Cold start doctrine exist and is being implemented cold start doctrine doesnt mean military strike but economical strike on Pakistan... As per my analysis Military force is needed to tackle China and economical force is enough to tackle Pakistan... There are lot of deep loops here which we can see ourself from the time when this doctrine was rumored inside the public domain.. No Government will be stupid enough to expose such sensitive doctrine ... Pakistan will be economically defeated .... forced to handover your Nuclear assets for your liabilities ... that is why GoI is crying foul when you get your Aid money from US... I can point lot of stuff on this but i dont want to get into inner details...

All i can say is Pakistan is not in Radar of Indian Military doctrine.. As far i can see the new doctrine will be on terrorism and how to tackle non conventional wars with respect to Pakistan.. Military doctrine doesnt hold good any more towards western border....

Are you trying to be funny? What impact does India has on Pak's economy other than raising its own defense budget and forcing Pak to spend more on weapons? You sound like some Wana be RAW agent who THINKS he has all the INSIDE information and knows everything.

Im glad you did not GET INTO THE "INNER" DETAILS. I would have died laughing. Thanks for sparing my life.


@ Everyone who thinks cold start is working. YES it is! it has bring the already close friends China and Pak even closer. You guys now have 2 enemies thanks to your over confidence. The very next day for the announcement of cold start your army chief spilled the beans on the state of your tanks and artillery. What an idiot. Good hes gone now but the replacement sounds even more dumb.

As i keep saying Indians have become too over confident. Your arrogance will help both China and Pak.


@ those who think only PAK will be history are again living in arrogance. Kindly wake up. 20 missiles loaded with nuclear weapons will ensure India's place in hell. Sudhar jao abhi time hai.