Killing India’s hidden ‘Cold Start’ strategy

[notorious_eagle]

i wouldnt consider it dead, cold start is sort of like the anaconda effect. it works slowly, you would probably see the result in the upcoming years. but by the time you realize, it'll be too late

In your dreams maybe, Pakistan has taken the correct steps and started their own modernization programs to ensure that all the qualitative edge between both the sides is narrowed down. For Indians to pull of something on the lines of Cold Start means, them having the fire power of NATO and Pakistan being severely weak like Iraq was during 1990's.

This whole doctrine is flawed because the objectives Indians want to achieve are flawed. Rush to the border, steam ahead and capture some territory with your IBG's. After achieving that objective, WHAT are you going to do? Do you think Pakistanis wont counter attack your positions where the Indian troops and armour are exhausted while Pakistanis are fresh and ready to go. Or the Pakistanis might let the Indians come in and let them exhaust themselves after taking punishment from the light infantry. Once exhausted, Pakistanis can encircle them. Cold Doctrine might sound fancy but not that easy to implement against an enemy that has got tricks up its sleeve too.

Another very important factor, Air Superiority. Not now or either in the future for at least 10 years, i dont see the Indians achieving air superiority in the war theatre. While great for chest thumping, this entire doctrine is flawed and it appears that IA has realized this too.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

i wouldnt consider it dead, cold start is sort of like the anaconda effect. it works slowly, you would probably see the result in the upcoming years. but by the time you realize, it'll be too late

I hope you arent another one of those hindustanys, posing under the disguise of Pakistani flag

 

[Storm Force]

Notorius

With what do you intend to deny IAF air Supremacy. ??

Current ratio is 4-1 in 4th gen fighters alone. THE new thunder is yet to FIRE A SINGLE BVR SHOT even in practise.

Even the mighty F16 ARE 25 YEAR OLD and to few in no.

PAF 18 F16/52 versis 130 su30mki (only one winner. )

How can a country with one tenth the resources of its much bigger neighbour maintain current military balance which is already over 3-1 in both Navy & Air power (fire power)

The sort of weapon systems That the indians HAVE RECEIVED already like
Su30mki ,,Phalcon Awacs, T90 battle tanks and smerch BMRL, are expensive weapons that Pakistan could not never buy in large nos.

The NEW Systems being negotiated as we speak are global standard weapons
C17 globemasters , MMRCA typhoons, P8 posedion maritime planes, Akula nuclear powered sub.

Single MMRCA costs £100m each
C17 globemaster $400 each
P8 $100M EACH

Cold Start is a new doctrine The above equipment (and much more)will arrive and INDIA will spend MASSIVE $$ to achieve their goal.

India has Huge Economic Supremacy in the sub continent which means Conventional Military Supremacy and the ability to engage in a Cold Start doctrine if they have to in the near future BUT NOT TODAY

Pakistans answer is simple WE CANT match you conventionally and your economic GAP is too big. WE WILL SIMPLY acquire more NUKES.

Hence Pakistan doctrine of first use of nukes if threatened.

The GOP Know the situation is heading in this direction re Conventional imbalance

Bury your heads in the sand and pretend MMRCA is not happening. Arihant nuke subs are not be testing or 2 new carriers are not arriving by 2014.

LETS JUST PRETEND that INDIA does not have a Forex of $300 billion or a GDP of $1.5 trillion by middle of this year

ITS JUST A BAD DREAM.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

hey chest-thumper, Pakistan has no hegemonic designs.....ours are a defensive force, though the idea is to have offensive-defence capabilities

given limited means and resources, we are doing what we can to deny you any possibility (not dream though, since indians are good at it regardless) of violating our territorial or aerial sovereignty

past record speaks wonders; in none of the engagements has hindustan been able to attain superiority of any kind over the much smaller force

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Notorius

With what do you intend to deny IAF air Supremacy. ??

Current ratio is 4-1 in 4th gen fighters alone. THE new thunder is yet to FIRE A SINGLE BVR SHOT even in practise.

Even the mighty F16 ARE 25 YEAR OLD and to few in no.

PAF 18 F16/52 versis 130 su30mki (only one winner. )

How can a country with one tenth the resources of its much bigger neighbour maintain current military balance which is already over 3-1 in both Navy & Air power (fire power)

The sort of weapon systems That the indians HAVE RECEIVED already like
Su30mki ,,Phalcon Awacs, T90 battle tanks and smerch BMRL, are expensive weapons that Pakistan could not never buy in large nos.

The NEW Systems being negotiated as we speak are global standard weapons
C17 globemasters , MMRCA typhoons, P8 posedion maritime planes, Akula nuclear powered sub.

Single MMRCA costs £100m each
C17 globemaster $400 each
P8 $100M EACH

Cold Start is a new doctrine The above equipment (and much more)will arrive and INDIA will spend MASSIVE $$ to achieve their goal.

India has Huge Economic Supremacy in the sub continent which means Conventional Military Supremacy and the ability to engage in a Cold Start doctrine if they have to in the near future BUT NOT TODAY

Pakistans answer is simple WE CANT match you conventionally and your economic GAP is too big. WE WILL SIMPLY acquire more NUKES.

Hence Pakistan doctrine of first use of nukes if threatened.

The GOP Know the situation is heading in this direction re Conventional imbalance

Bury your heads in the sand and pretend MMRCA is not happening. Arihant nuke subs are not be testing or 2 new carriers are not arriving by 2014.

LETS JUST PRETEND that INDIA does not have a Forex of $300 billion or a GDP of $1.5 trillion by middle of this year

ITS JUST A BAD DREAM.

this guy is a genius ashamed of his country and loves to troll with bs facts.

1000 bew arty
ucav
etc etc
not this crap.

 

[Storm Force]

Abu military professional.

Who is Pakistan going have hegomanic designs on.

With What or on What basis can Pakistan even dream about Hegomoney over its neighbours or in this region.

 

[Storm Force]

Pak National

There is no bull ****

In The nos given to you. All Hard Facts

GROUND REALITY THEY SOME TIMES CALL THIS

 

[notorious_eagle]

With what do you intend to deny IAF air Supremacy. ??

What do you have that you intend to gain air superiority, do you have something like the Raptor that is a game changer in our environment. The time frame that we are talking about which is roughly 3-4 days, their is no chance that IAF can gain Air Supremacy in the war theatre. Its only wishful thinking that IAF can achieve total air supremacy at the start of the war.

Current ratio is 4-1 in 4th gen fighters alone. THE new thunder is yet to FIRE A SINGLE BVR SHOT even in practise.

See this is what makes you stick out as a fanboy. You just look at the shiny new toys IAF is buying and believe this is what will achieve you air supremacy. Sure you have a 4:1 ratio in your advantage for 4th Generation Aircrafts, but will it ensure your victory? Are these the game changers and are can they ensure victory for the IAF. What about operational requirements, strategic objectives and anticipating how the enemy will counter your planes. Subtract planes that are tasked for CAS, Air Defence and Air Superiority, lets see how many planes you have left than. FYI; Thunder has fired SD10 and its fully integrated, keep up with the news. In our scenario, BVR isn't that important since both neighbours are right next to each other

Even the mighty F16 ARE 25 YEAR OLD and to few in no.

PAF 18 F16/52 versis 130 su30mki (only one winner. )

The old F16's are going through CCIP, once completed they are as good as new and with same standards as the Block 52's. 130 SU30MKI's , if we didn't have any force multipliers than sure the MKI's would be the winners. This again makes you stick out as a fanboy, you have counted up the MKI's but what about the other factors that are involved. No PAF plane would engage the MKI without the proper back up support, besides MKI is so overrated as proved by the RF2008 exercises.

How can a country with one tenth the resources of its much bigger neighbour maintain current military balance which is already over 3-1 in both Navy & Air power (fire power)

By fighting a defensive war, its funny that with all the billions spent the weight is still equal between India and Pakistan.

The sort of weapon systems That the indians HAVE RECEIVED already like
Su30mki ,,Phalcon Awacs, T90 battle tanks and smerch BMRL, are expensive weapons that Pakistan could not never buy in large nos.

The NEW Systems being negotiated as we speak are global standard weapons
C17 globemasters , MMRCA typhoons, P8 posedion maritime planes, Akula nuclear powered sub.

Thanks but i can read the news, whatever weapons you have mentioned does not tilt the balance in India's favour. Only fanboys believe that when they look at shiny new toys.

Single MMRCA costs £100m each
C17 globemaster $400 each
P8 $100M EACH

Cold Start is a new doctrine The above equipment (and much more)will arrive and INDIA will spend MASSIVE $$ to achieve their goal.

India has Huge Economic Supremacy in the sub continent which means Conventional Military Supremacy and the ability to engage in a Cold Start doctrine if they have to in the near future BUT NOT TODAY

Pakistans answer is simple WE CANT match you conventionally and your economic GAP is too big. WE WILL SIMPLY acquire more NUKES.

Hence Pakistan doctrine of first use of nukes if threatened.

The GOP Know the situation is heading in this direction re Conventional imbalance

Bury your heads in the sand and pretend MMRCA is not happening. Arihant nuke subs are not be testing or 2 new carriers are not arriving by 2014.

LETS JUST PRETEND that INDIA does not have a Forex of $300 billion or a GDP of $1.5 trillion by middle of this year

ITS JUST A BAD DREAM.

The rest of your post is just a fanboy rant, i am not even going to bother answering it.

Lets get serious about the discussion now, since you are trying to convince us that India will pummel Pakistan in the future with the Cold Start Doctrine, lets talk about this doctrine in more detail.

What are the strategic and tactical objectives? What strategy is India going to employ and how are they envisioning of achieving it? What weapons are they going to employ and what is going to be the formation for India's IBG? What is the anticipated reaction the Indians expect from the Pakistanis and how exactly are do they hope to counter it?

I am waiting for your detailed reply on this, and please dont post another fanboy rant talking about India's FX Reserves or India's military procurement.

 

[Storm Force]

Notorius

Read This Part of My Post Again

India has Huge Economic Supremacy in the sub continent which means Conventional Military Supremacy and the ability to engage in a Cold Start doctrine if they have to in the near future BUT NOT TODAY

 

[Storm Force]

I suggest you read the PDF on Cold Start

A Cold Start for Hot Wars? The Indian Army's New Limited War Doctrine - Harvard - Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs

Like the author concluded Indian Military are actively studying this concept and building towards it.

THE GLOBALLY FEAR is that Pakistans only answer maybe NUCLEAR WEAPONS because some fear in the future Pakistan may not be able to stop a COLD START operation due to growing imbalance.

PS " THIS IS NOT A RANT OR A FANBOY CLAIM "

 

[notorious_eagle]

So my conclusion was correct, you know nothing about the Cold Start Doctrine but pretend to be an expert on it. As soon as i called you on your bluff, you just backed out and posted a link. The study fails to acknowledge the modernization programs that are in place for Pakistan. PAF is already a net centric organization and PA should be fully net centric by the end of next year. Good Luck trying to launch a surprise attack against Pakistan because each and every Indian move will be watched carefully by our officers.

Pakistan not being able to stop a Cold Start attack , i am yet to see some actual evidence that supports this claim not some B.S made assumptions. Unless the IAF can neutralize PAF in 48 hours, and IA being able to effectively locate and destroy a huge chunk of PA's Armour, the chances of Cold Start being a failure is quite high. Can you actually present me some scenarios or even basic logic where you assume that CS is going to be a success, all you have made are big fat claims and nothing else. While you are talking about conventional disparity and numbers being on India's side, it appears to me that you dont have any idea what CS is. The purpose of CS is to launch a Division Level attack at max to surprise the enemy and steam ahead to capture chunks of territory. To launch a Corps Level attack, you need at least 3 days to fully prepare and by that time PA would realize of the impending attack and will start massing up their formations on the border too. So your argument of having superior numbers dont hold any merit considering the time frame is going to be less than a week of war and IBG's would be division sized. CS is not feasible because the premise behind is not right, the objectives are not clear. Pakistani is buying exactly the right weapons it needs to hit the Indian Armour hard right when it crosses the IB.

I am yet to see a single argument from your side that convinces me that IA can pull something off like this, all you have done is just make pure fanboy claims.

 

[The Deterrent]

I suggest you read the PDF on Cold Start

A Cold Start for Hot Wars? The Indian Army's New Limited War Doctrine - Harvard - Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs

Like the author concluded Indian Military are actively studying this concept and building towards it.

THE GLOBALLY FEAR is that Pakistans only answer maybe NUCLEAR WEAPONS because some fear in the future Pakistan may not be able to stop a COLD START operation due to growing imbalance.

PS " THIS IS NOT A RANT OR A FANBOY CLAIM "

You are right...If we are not able to withstand the Indian assault,our reply will be be nuclear weapons but...

First they will be used against your army and navy (i.e. Tactical ones)
If your reply is strategic nuclear weapons against the population,we will be forced to take the same step...

 

[Jango]

to my indian friend.......why in 2008 did india not operate a cold start in such bloody circumstances after proof of pakistani involvment???.....u can search on the internet adn go to wikipedia and clearly see that india is too afraid to initiate cold start because of the implications lying against the initiator!!!....adn the pakistan army isnt taking it very seriously at all

 

[Paan Singh]

to my indian friend.......why in 2008 did india not operate a cold start in such bloody circumstances after proof of pakistani involvment???.....u can search on the internet adn go to wikipedia and clearly see that india is too afraid to initiate cold start because of the implications lying against the initiator!!!....adn the pakistan army isnt taking it very seriously at all

well i want to make u one thing clear.during obama visit,india tried to influence the u.s to agree on cold start coz after all the support of u.s is necessary on global level.the cold start exist.but america is busy in afghanistan,so they dont want to take chance.

so ur philosphy of 2008----- etc is failed.india dont care abt pakistan strength etc but they wanted to make u.s with them.but they failed due to above mention reason

 

[Storm Force]

Cold Start is a Concept at this stage. Its a New War fighting concept that India is building towards following the disastorous build up of operation Pakahram in 2001.

That build up was painfully slow and costly and achieved nothing.

India is not looking at a Mass Invasion border war taking swathes of Pak territory and losing lives and costing $billions.

India no1 priority is maintain its impessive Economic growth of last decade and get Indian GDP to $2 trillion by 2015 and $3 trillion by 2020. THE LAST THING INDIA NEEDS IS A WAR to throw its trajectory growth off this course.

BUT it cannot be seen to be a soft touch. THE GOI as to respond to the next terrorist attack because 1.2 billion indians will demand an answer.

Cold START CALLS FOR RAPID SHORT BURSTS of strikes by small forces both on land and in the air WITHOUT comitting MASSIVE build up.

In the WEST they call this punative mlitary action.

LIKE I SAID i repeat this COLD START DOCTRINE is just a concept at this stage but is being worked upon AND OPENLY debated by the indian top brass.

I REPEAT nothing is more important that the indian GROWTH OF ITS ECONOMY...