Killing India’s hidden ‘Cold Start’ strategy

[rockstarIN]

I am amazed that India and Indians can even contemplate that an eight times smaller Pakistan is going to attack.

Its like a twenty four year old young lad being afraid of a three year kid.

The kid is always throwing stones to us and running back to the hills, thats the problem, it is not being afraid of.

 

[silent hawk]

The kid is always throwing stones to us and running back to the hills, thats the problem, it is not being afraid of.

Why are you afraid of going into the hills?

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

thats because u r used to the twisted version of history from Pakistani textbooks,just collect data from some neutral source to know the actual history,and u r not going to enjoy it

I dont know how many more revelations from their own sources as well as neutral sources , it will take for them to realise the truth of the past wars between Indian and Pakistan .

i guess some of them deliberately want to remain blind to these realities.

 

[SQ8]

thats because u r used to the twisted version of history from Pakistani textbooks,just collect data from some neutral source to know the actual history,and u r not going to enjoy it

And what neutral sources would that be... wikipedia..global security??
considering every Ashok,subramanian and Akash sitting free in call center's spends all his time on PR drive's editing and posting on such articles.
surprisingly though.. the most neutral sources on the conflict are Indian themselves..Books such as the "Indo-Pak air war" by PVS jagan mohan..are testament to how the Pakistani forces performed..
Don't mistake our lamblike leaders as representative of the Lions they command..
And if the history is to be believed as per your neutral sources..
India is the one under performing.. considering most of the time our top brass literally handed you a walkover in a plate twice..
The same goes for the other side of the coin..
Indian forces learned their lessons quickly... and are ever more tactful in employing their forces..
The miracles a few men achieved and literally saved Pakistan back in 65... and again in 71.. might not be enough this time around unless some professional excellence is displayed by those at the helm of Pakistan's armed forces.

As for the CSD.. Indians here seem adamant that their "view" from the border is correct.. and that CSD would have worked..
If you want an analogy.. think of CSD as the bomber gap back in the cold war....all hype.. till one U-2 flight proved otherwise..
in this case.. CSD was war gamed way back when it was first given the media glitz.. then.. to verify the results.. and to boost public morale.. it was announced that it was tested in Azm-e-Nau..
And yet again.. was found to be a flat tyre.
CSD was a midnight dream for somebody who seemed high on the Adelphi papers...nothing more.

 

[deckingraj]

i personally don't believe they would have much success in such a scenario, and it would be quite foolish of them to even think of such an endeavor --- not to say that Pakistan isn't prepared for such (as demonstrated by High Mark and other recent exercises --or its ability to mobilize en masse the way it did in 2002); not to say that i would hold it against the indians for dreaming --which I not only condone for them, but would actually encourage, as they are quite good at it!

Well plans are made and adjusted to possible pros and cons. Thereafter execution of plan is done. If we go by history then India do have very good record as far as execution of the plan is concerened as compared with her Pakistani counterparts.

We planned 71 and results are in front of us. We planned Siachen and results are in front of us. However if we look at Pakistani record then 65 was unsuccessful and kargil was biggest blunder. However both the plans on paper were superb. Do you agree with that i have said????

Now coming to CSD only time will tell that it is failure or yet another success for India. Historically we did good but that does not mean we will do good should there be next time. Same is true for Pakistan, i just brought in the topic because it seems like you feel that Indian Top Brass is run by fools...As far as dreaming is concerned then i am glad even my dream have lot of impact on your phyche...

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

His job is to assure that in case there is a two front war, Indian armed forces are able and capable to handle such situations.

i think reinforcing dreams would be more like.....i dont think india has the resources or sufficient equipment to sustain a two-front war. I'm being honest and giving you my own professional assesment. Though many of your inductions have disturbed the military balance.

All that "drama and theatrics" had the desired effect! Without moving any of our forces, without firing a single bullet, India forced pakistan to accept that the perpetrators were Pakistanis, that the plot was hatched in Pakistan and that the groups belonged to Pakistan- once nourished by Pakistani establishment.

all that chest-thumping, migraines, and tantrums for a simple statement?

as per information available in public domain, the plotting took places in several countries --not limited to Pakistan but also Dubai and as far away as Italy

You armed forces were on very high alert and flew numerous CAPS over major Pakistani cities, while Indian personnel were having a hearty laugh at the jittery responses from Pakistani establishment.

flying CAPS was inevitable, given indian posturing; not to mention one case of an intruding aircraft which was only a thread's width from getting shot down from the sky as it fled in haste (confirmed in media)

Have you read those wikileaks reports? How your establishment is involved in funding and supporting various groups? Havent you read Mushraff's latest statement about anti-India terrorist groups?

i could care damn less what is stated on 'wikileaks' or statements taken completely out of context by indian media tabloids

Though I have to give it to you that, if one were to believe official reports and ground situation, Pakistani establishment has sort of washed its hands off these groups officially. But one wouldnt rule of support for these by some 'rouge' elements in Pakistani establishment.

I'm not very interested

True that. However homefield advantage evaporates if one doesnt know where and when the attacks would commence.

well that's where our so-called ''paranoia about india'' as some call it comes in handy

Didnt PAF neutralize home field advantage of IAF when they did a pre-emptive strike in 1971 precipitating the conflict?

I think that given a freeze in arms supplies, the PAF still performed quite well in defending Pakistan though better coordination between the services would have been in order

again -- a good lesson learned for future. Recent military exercizes as well as procuments and innovations have proven that we are ready to meet the new security-related challenges --especially as far as our enemy is concerned

Thats your personal point of view. But there are far more qualified and able think tanks and brilliant strategists (unlike some who are at the most ordinary field tacticians without any understanding, whatsoever, of political strategies) who take into account every conceivable practical and imaginary scenarios before formulating the strategy.

since you are one of those 'brilliant strategists', enlighten me further

 

[rockstarIN]

Why are you afraid of going into the hills?

No time buddy, busy doing business.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Well plans are made and adjusted to possible pros and cons. Thereafter execution of plan is done. If we go by history then India do have very good record as far as execution of the plan is concerened as compared with her Pakistani counterparts.

We planned 71 and results are in front of us. We planned Siachen and results are in front of us. However if we look at Pakistani record then 65 was unsuccessful and kargil was biggest blunder. However both the plans on paper were superb. Do you agree with that i have said????

Now coming to CSD only time will tell that it is failure or yet another success for India. Historically we did good but that does not mean we will do good should there be next time. Same is true for Pakistan, i just brought in the topic because it seems like you feel that Indian Top Brass is run by fools...As far as dreaming is concerned then i am glad even my dream have lot of impact on your phyche...

You think ? How naive of you ...

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

i think reinforcing dreams would be more like.....i dont think india has the resources or sufficient equipment to sustain a two-front war. I'm being honest and giving you my own professional assesment. Though many of your inductions have disturbed the military balance.



all that chest-thumping, migraines, and tantrums for a simple statement?

as per information available in public domain, the plotting took places in several countries --not limited to Pakistan but also Dubai and as far away as Italy




flying CAPS was inevitable, given indian posturing; not to mention one case of an intruding aircraft which was only a thread's width from getting shot down from the sky as it fled in haste (confirmed in media)



i could care damn less what is stated on 'wikileaks' or statements taken completely out of context by indian media tabloids




I'm not very interested



well that's where our so-called ''paranoia about india'' as some call it comes in handy



I think that given a freeze in arms supplies, the PAF still performed quite well in defending Pakistan though better coordination between the services would have been in order

again -- a good lesson learned for future. Recent military exercizes as well as procuments and innovations have proven that we are ready to meet the new security-related challenges --especially as far as our enemy is concerned




since you are one of those 'brilliant strategists', enlighten me further

Pakistani govt. officially made a statement that the intrusion by the indian planes was very minor and was accidental.

Pakistani media tabloids can project the incident whichever way they want , no one outside pakistan really cares.
Heck , when they can blame the pakistani floods on India , nothing else can come as a surprise.

 

[deckingraj]

And what neutral sources would that be... wikipedia..global security??considering every Ashok,subramanian and Akash sitting free in call center's spends all his time on PR drive's editing and posting on such articles.

If you can please suggest us some. Or are you saying there are no more neutral sources left because every Ashok, Subramanian and Akash are busy changing history????

surprisingly though.. the most neutral sources on the conflict are Indian themselves..Books such as the "Indo-Pak air war" by PVS jagan mohan..are testament to how the Pakistani forces performed..

Surprising even we have couple of chaps who are honest. Rest all are here to glorify and modify history....

Don't mistake our lamblike leaders as representative of the Lions they command..

Man No one is under-estimating Pak here. So not sure what you mean....

And if the history is to be believed as per your neutral sources..
India is the one under performing.. considering most of the time our top brass literally handed you a walkover in a plate twice..

Doesn't mean anything. I very well know that in 65 when Lal Bahadur Shastri asked for the state of battle he was informed that India has used almost 80% of her ammunition whereas in reality it was only 20%. I am sure if he had the correct information things might have been different. However how does this change the reality. 65 was a stalemate and that it...

The same goes for the other side of the coin..
Indian forces learned their lessons quickly... and are ever more tactful in employing their forces..
The miracles a few men achieved and literally saved Pakistan back in 65... and again in 71.. might not be enough this time around unless some professional excellence is displayed by those at the helm of Pakistan's armed forces.

Agreed. This is true for both sides

As for the CSD.. Indians here seem adamant that their "view" from the border is correct.. and that CSD would have worked..

Aren't you being adamant by calling it a flat tyre???? Anywyas this is your perception and i being an adversary would want you to believe it. If i am wrong then it would be good for Pak, in case i am right then good for India. In a war one side loose and one win(though both loose).

If you want an analogy.. think of CSD as the bomber gap back in the cold war....all hype.. till one U-2 flight proved otherwise..

What we are waiting for is that "till". B/w no doctorine is going to stay forever. People will keep on innovating as the technology evolves.

in this case.. CSD was war gamed way back when it was first given the media glitz.. then.. to verify the results.. and to boost public morale.. it was announced that it was tested in Azm-e-Nau..
And yet again.. was found to be a flat tyre.
CSD was a midnight dream for somebody who seemed high on the Adelphi papers...nothing more.

Not sure what was the need to even try it out if it was a flat tyre and someone's mid-night dream??? Anyhow seems like you are able to thwart lot of Uncle's sam's pressure because of our midnight dream. So in essence you should be thanking India, no??

 

[SQ8]

Well plans are made and adjusted to possible pros and cons. Thereafter execution of plan is done. If we go by history then India do have very good record as far as execution of the plan is concerened as compared with her Pakistani counterparts.

We planned 71 and results are in front of us. We planned Siachen and results are in front of us. However if we look at Pakistani record then 65 was unsuccessful and kargil was biggest blunder. However both the plans on paper were superb. Do you agree with that i have said????

Now coming to CSD only time will tell that it is failure or yet another success for India. Historically we did good but that does not mean we will do good should there be next time. Same is true for Pakistan, i just brought in the topic because it seems like you feel that Indian Top Brass is run by fools...As far as dreaming is concerned then i am glad even my dream have lot of impact on your phyche...

Op grandslam made you attack us on another border..
and its effectiveness till the change of command was visible on the ground.
Difference between tactical and strategic failures.
Kargil too reflects that.. if it did not have such a profound effect then why the heck did it shake up the Indian war machine soo much??
Problem with our Army leadership was their overconfidence that India would not open another front in response to losses elsewhere.
Had the command of Op Gibraltar not changed at the crucial point.. and the troops pushed on to Akhnur.. history would have been very different.
But we are going into debates that have gone on multiple threads in the past..
And both of us wont accept the others view..
So its best to leave these out of this discussion.
The topic was CSD.. you cannot convince me or other Pakistani's of its value..
And we cant convince you Indians it was a flop the day it was conceived..
So lets agree to disagree(like every other place where its India vs Pakistan)..and move on.

And yes.. CSD did help us in international politics..
So yes.. thank you for handing us a thorn to poke the yanks with..
Thank you for being the big wolf for us.. and letting us get away with a lot of things which otherwise would have gotten us into a lot of trouble
THANK YOU INDIA

 

[airuah]

Why are you afraid of going into the hills?

the world doesent want us too ...they fear that if we decide to come after the little boy the hill would no longer exist

 

[Beacon]

the world doesent want us too ...they fear that if we decide to come after the little boy the hill would no longer exist

very mischievous boy which also entails compassion from uncles and aunts..

 

[deckingraj]

Op grandslam made you attack us on another border..
and its effectiveness till the change of command was visible on the ground.
Difference between tactical and strategic failures.

But a failure. What matters is what you achieved at the end of war. A win in a battle is moment of glory but that's about it...What matters is who won the war. It was not just delay in command. Sure you were doing good there but would you have been able to carry out the momentum we don't know. Who knows what counter our strategist would have thrown at you...So tactical or strategic failure is out of question. In fact if you look at overall war then it was full of both strategic and tactical failure. Pak for some reason did not accounted for international reaction and they suffered heavily from 65-70. Kashmiri's were taken for granted and to make matter's worst India's reaction was also under-estomated. Anyways point being it doesnot matter what errors were commited. People make mistakes and learn from them. Unfortunately Pak needed to learn the same lesson twice and there came Kargil.

Kargil too reflects that.. if it did not have such a profound effect then why the heck did it shake up the Indian war machine soo much??

And who is saying that it was not a brilliant plan??? Its execution was poor and you lost. Had things went the way it was planned we might have lost Siachen. This is what i am saying, Plan looks good on paper and all the pros and cons are discussed. It is the execution which holds the key. CSD is also a plan and proper thought has been given to it. All the acquisitions are in synch with this plan. Now we will see it success/failure during its execution(god forbids)....

Problem with our Army leadership was their overconfidence that India would not open another front in response to losses elsewhere.
Had the command of Op Gibraltar not changed at the crucial point.. and the troops pushed on to Akhnur.. history would have been very different.

I agve you the example of 65. Had our PM given correct information, history would have been very different. But then all these are empty claims. We all make mistakes. One who learns from them and adjust quickly ends up as the winner....

But we are going into debates that have gone on multiple threads in the past..
And both of us wont accept the others view..
So its best to leave these out of this discussion.
The topic was CSD.. you cannot convince me or other Pakistani's of its value..
And we cant convince you Indians it was a flop the day it was conceived..
So lets agree to disagree(like every other place where its India vs Pakistan)..and move on.

Sure...

And yes.. CSD did help us in international politics..
So yes.. thank you for handing us a thorn to poke the yanks with..
Thank you for being the big wolf for us.. and letting us get away with a lot of things which otherwise would have gotten us into a lot of trouble
THANK YOU INDIA

You are welcome. But if you think yanks are stupid that they will buy that something which is flat as tyre is troubling you then you are mistaken. Neither yanks are stupid nor is this doctorine flat as tyre but then you are welcome to carry on with your POV...

 

[I FLY HIGH]

the world doesent want us too ...they fear that if we decide to come after the little boy the hill would no longer exist

Too much over confidence, By the way i inform you that the highest peak in kargil 5030 is still undr pakistani control even after 10 years . Dont have the courage to take it back ? The world only suggests you but the decisions are taken by keeping in view of the ground realities .