Kayanis gamble: Pakistan pulls back troops from Indian border

[Tshering22]

I didn't hear him say the Taliban. I heard him say Soviet-era resistance-fighters, from whom both the Northern Alliance and the Taliban came about.

Obviously we do understand that you're not seasoned enough of a forumer to know that many of the AKs came from Israel from their '73 war booty.

Please check his last line buddy.

Israel had the largest stockpile of soviet weapons outside of the soviet weapon. Being a covert operation, it wouldn't have been a very good one if the Mujahideen ran around with M-16s. So they were armed with Soviet weapons collected during the course of the Arab-Israeli wars. That's how Israel armed them. After the withdrawal was announced, we did not continue to nurture the Taliban. We just supported their government because we wanted a stable Afghanistan so that the 6.3 Million refugees would go back.........................

You should know better than anyone how pirated the AK design has become ever since its sales went into Asia and Africa long time before the Taliban started their war against Russians. Your support has costed your own nation so much. At least learn now if you can.

 

[Rocky25]

You guys are already doing that quite well.................carry on, if anything, this conflict is just strengthening our military. PA is no longer the bakery running, golf-course maintaining force of the 90s. Its a blood-thirsty, deadly effective, well-oiled fighting machine.

Frankly in my opinion India is not doing anything of its size and power due to that useless Security Council membership aspiration, and image building etc, etc, Also the bold part does not threaten us to the least. Your approach of selective fighting of terrorists have no basis and yesterdays Mujaheddin is today's Pakistani enemy and even US is not able to completely destroy Al Queda & Taliban completely, Can Pakistan do it? Congratz if you can!

Also I have high regard for Taliban who attacks the full armed base & military head offices rather than the cowardly LeT who attacked unarmed civilians. If they had guys they should had met our soldiers in the LAC and defeated them.

 

[Icarus]

And that's precisely the reason that is making your army's job 10 times tougher than it is supposed to be. You gave FATA a free ride rather than integrating them. Conventionally Taliban are having very limited tactics and strategy because of no proper organized military force. They are using the same and despite your nation having the resources and backing of an entire people, still are finding it hard. The key to defeat Taliban is to use their tactics against them. To Ambush their attacks rather than use fighters to bomb them.

This war is being fought from compound to compound which is exactly the reason why our death toll is much higher than any other party in the WoT. The PA has to avoid collateral damage which is why air strikes are a last resort.

Despite the fact that we have a puppet PM and a scamster government right now with zero power to the tri-services to take over. Kayani is so desperate to get the troops back to our border that he's not able to even focus on WOT properly. His personal whim and the reality are at a collision course right now and hence Pakistan's uncomfortable position.

Kiyani does what this nation's security most requires. We can never be certain of India's intention. If we pull out from the Eastern border, we will possibly have to come back and fight against an insurgency in Punjab and Sindh. What if India decides it wants a military adventure at Sir Creek again, or maybe they want to further the Akhand Bharat act and take Lahore. It's guys like me who have to analyze the cost benefit ratio and come up with a strategy. Right now, we have sufficient troops to keep the WoT going smoothly. Without compromising our security on the Eastern Border.

That's because you're a part of it and the presence of duplicity in some rogue elements as the NATO suspect in your intelligence and military agencies that are playing double role. This is really affecting their own combat operations and that is why the "do more" rhetoric.

Unless they have facts to back up the rhetoric, it must end. You have no idea what an insult this sounds to the men who come after a long-exhausting battle, carrying their best friends or what used to be them on their shoulders.

They are simply testing their new weapon systems that they will sell for billions around the world and make a profit. As soon as that objective is met, the will "lose" and withdraw and go back to their homeland more than 5,000 miles away. They can afford to choose the combat format as they wish. The question here is-- can you?

We can't and that is why we are fast adapting to a role the PA was never intended to perform. Counter-Insurgency.

A fact that has never been proven till date despite your interior minister constantly harping of "will provide proof at the right time". When is his right time coming than not now when your entire country has become a warzone due to your own creations?

1) They are not our creations.
2) I don't report to the Interior minister. I have seen Indian explosives in Swat, Indian ammo(50k rounds) in SWA and Indian medicines in Bajaur. If it were Russian I would say it's from the black market, but Indian weaponry does not come from the black market easily.

Ask this question to your generals. We too dealt with the Soviets and mind you, we never had any such issues despite dealing with a superpower. How come you did?

Neutrality was a blessing, unfortunately we were late to realize that.

 

[Hulk]

These guys are what remains of the Mujahideen from the Soviet-Afghan war. How is it that they are now a single-handedly Pakistani creation ? I remember it was the US who paid them, Israel who armed them, we just gave them sanctuaries.

Agreed others were party to creation, but they abandoned them once job was over.

 

[Icarus]

Please check his last line buddy.



You should know better than anyone how pirated the AK design has become ever since its sales went into Asia and Africa long time before the Taliban started their war against Russians. Your support has costed your own nation so much. At least learn now if you can.

The AK was popularized after the 80s, those in the hands of Mujahideen came from the Israelis who had them taken from the Arabs. It's a historical fact.

 

[Icarus]

Frankly in my opinion India is not doing anything of its size and power due to that useless Security Council membership aspiration, and image building etc, etc, Also the bold part does not threaten us to the least. Your approach of selective fighting of terrorists have no basis and yesterdays Mujaheddin is today's Pakistani enemy and even US is not able to completely destroy Al Queda & Taliban completely, Can Pakistan do it? Congratz if you can!

Also I have high regard for Taliban who attacks the full armed base & military head offices rather than the cowardly LeT who attacked unarmed civilians. If they had guys they should had met our soldiers in the LAC and defeated them.

Actually. The LeT attacked your parliament, it was reasonably well defended and was also a very audacious target. Even during the Mumbai attacks they battled Police, IA and the Black Caps, and held your financial capital hostage for 4 DAYS. I have a high regard for their bravery. Hurts when it's your people on the other side doesn't it ?
And just so that you know, the Taliban only attacked one military base successfully, compare that with thousands of attacks on civilians and you have the true character of your heroes to admire.


---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 PM ----------

It is time for India to regain Pak occupied Kashmir.

You are welcome to try. As soon as you attack, your economic miracle ends.

 

[Rocky25]

A very shallow set of actions described in the light of very legitimate national interests. You need to understand the gravity of the situation. The Taliban are not controllable. They are just like a nuclear reaction that cannot be controlled. Only it can be destroyed before it gets a chance to get over your head. Taliban is the number one threat to all the peace in the entire south Asia. I know we don't get along with Pakistan but there are other rogue elements there that are not anti-India and hence our (potential) support to such agencies lest the need be, is much safer than compared to dealing with cut-throat terrorists that the Taliban. Remember, they are a threat especially to us (kafir) first as much as they are greedy to take over Pakistani nuclear establishment.

Taliban has to be exterminated. It has to be crushed root and boot and ensured that it never raises its ugly head, no matter to what extent all the world's militaries have to go. There should be no stopping to use of severe force be it gunships, tanks, fight jets, troops, commandos and what not to stop their evil. Taliban might be a creation of Pakistan and attacking them back, but they are a threat to first India and then Israel. This makes it all the more detrimental that our military gets extra powers to decide and VETO the weak civilian leadership in case of an emergency situation unless we get into trouble just as in Nehru's era we landed ourselves in deep $h!t.

Wow, very good argument, but believe me that these Pakistanis are the one who had once differentiated them as good Taliban and bad Taliban. Do you think in this WoT will Pakistan go against LeT or any anti-India terrorist for that matter?

What makes you think that these LeT is better or kinder than Taliban? Pakistan is only worried about the Taliban who is not acting according to their will.. Believe me if these Taliban heeds to Pakistani's interest... They would have be turned to India. Frankly in my opinion Taliban is no worse than the LeT.

 

[Rocky25]

I still can't get over your post, it is the single most well written proof of idiocy I have ever seen in my 2 years on this forum. You actually believe that you can control the Taliban ? And then you believe that they can destroy or take over our assets ? Getting 2 aircraft in 10 years is a pretty poor ratio.
And forget about the nukes, even India can only speculate about their locations, what makes you think a rag-tag group of militants can actually "Take them over" ?
Do remember, if you set fire to other's house, sooner or later you end up burnt yourself.............

Wow, I don't need your kind certificate....Getting 2 aircraft in 10 years is poor ratio, if the Taliban are fighting US because US has more than 1000's in their inventory. But taking 2 out off 6 Aircraft in 10 years is indeed a great ratio. Some 3 years back I saw the comments that Taliban will Never ever turn against Pakistan on full scale but now it is a reality. We can speculate through our satellites, they can attack 10 locations, If it is found in one location... It is great.

You are setting my house in fire and you are expecting me to sit idle..... How it is possible?

 

[Icarus]

Wow, I don't need your kind certificate....Getting 2 aircraft in 10 years is poor ratio, if the Taliban are fighting US because US has more than 1000's in their inventory. But taking 2 out off 6 Aircraft in 10 years is indeed a great ratio. Some 3 years back I saw the comments that Taliban will Never ever turn against Pakistan on full scale but now it is a reality. We can speculate through our satellites, they can attack 10 locations, If it is found in one location... It is great.

You are setting my house in fire and you are expecting me to sit idle..... How it is possible?

Do you even know the meaning of a full-scale war ? It still remains an insurgency, it is still not a full scale war and probably never be because the Taliban's operational capacity is being limited with every passing day. They lack the military power needed to launch an attack on 10 locations and they lack the power to enter those locations. And even if they enter them, they lack the scientific knowledge to actually make something of what is inside.
Thus your argument is void.

And your house is being set on fire by it's own residents. Naxals are your biggest problem.

 

[Tshering22]

^^ Gotta hand it to you mate; you're one of the really sensible debaters online on this forum. Its worthwhile discussing serious issues in an educational manner.

And your house is being set on fire by it's own residents. Naxals are your biggest problem.

Naxals are despised in India. Not even the poorest of villagers except a handful who have had negative experiences with some corrupt government officials who joined them, support them. The naxals kidnap families, threaten the poor ladies to force their sons to join the movement or get killed, take extra "tax" over and above what people pay to the government etc.

If Naxal movement was so much an issue as your case with Taliban, there would have been a Communist revolution already in India. The reason why they are considered terrorists not by the state alone but by people is because they're not liked here.

 

[Rocky25]

Actually. The LeT attacked your parliament, it was reasonably well defended and was also a very audacious target. Even during the Mumbai attacks they battled Police, IA and the Black Caps, and held your financial capital hostage for 4 DAYS. I have a high regard for their bravery. Hurts when it's your people on the other side doesn't it ?
And just so that you know, the Taliban only attacked one military base successfully, compare that with thousands of attacks on civilians and you have the true character of your heroes to admire.


---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 PM ----------



During the Mumbai days, it is not that they directly went and fought with the Police, IA or the black cats. They killed the unarmed civilians with automatic rifles and those designates whom you mentioned only came after wards, If your brave LeT have guts ask them to cross LoC and attack our army there. With automatic rifiles anyone too come and kill a unprepared crowded city Karachi and can held hostage and kill everyone at will and keep Pakistani financial city hostage for 5 days.

Still people in the Parliament I mean the MP's are not armed and our commanders killed all those 5 s&*t heads before they try to achieve their objective, Very proud of our commanders... They never let them to hold any hostage. Our commanders are not that in-efficient, not a single MP has a scratch. Your LeT are more welcome to fight our armed forces than the unarmed civilians..... And I am not a supporter of killing Pakistani unarmed civilians in anyway.

Don't worry our Armed forces will fix LeT's members appointment with God when ever they come and disturb unarmed civilians.

 

[Tshering22]

Wow, very good argument, but believe me that these Pakistanis are the one who had once differentiated them as good Taliban and bad Taliban. Do you think in this WoT will Pakistan go against LeT or any anti-India terrorist for that matter?

What makes you think that these LeT is better or kinder than Taliban? Pakistan is only worried about the Taliban who is not acting according to their will.. Believe me if these Taliban heeds to Pakistani's interest... They would have be turned to India. Frankly in my opinion Taliban is no worse than the LeT.

Thanks. But that still doesn't mean that we need to deal with Taliban alone on this. We are their number one target once they "replace the Pakistani government" as they aspire to. Their number two target is Israel but that would be difficult because of Israel's stellar security management and national defense. This makes us weaker and softer target because of the Maino Mafia and her slaves ruling our country who're interested in swindling the country rather than developing it to its peak form.

Pakistan will never cut off its only hope of disturbance for India i.e. LeT. But there are other ways in which , if though carefully, our strategists and policymakers (not corrupt asshats) can wreak havoc against the enemy without firing a single bullet or letting go off a single bomb. It is almost tragic why our so-called leaders fail to adopt the best of all treatises on strategy despite its tremendous validity even today after 2,400 years ( I am talking about Kautilyan Arthashastra).

 

[Rocky25]

Do you even know the meaning of a full-scale war ? It still remains an insurgency, it is still not a full scale war and probably never be because the Taliban's operational capacity is being limited with every passing day. They lack the military power needed to launch an attack on 10 locations and they lack the power to enter those locations. And even if they enter them, they lack the scientific knowledge to actually make something of what is inside.
Thus your argument is void.

And your house is being set on fire by it's own residents. Naxals are your biggest problem.

I am very well aware of the full scale war, but taking hostage at army head office by the so called insurgents and having hostage, can have the capability to at least attack 2 locations simultaneously, And your own intelligence moles and insiders in army are helping Taliban! It is not us.

I don't think Naxals are uncontrollable problem, Yes they are a menace... still we can control them. Shortly Money speaks... If all the citizens have a job to do they why are they coming out to protest or fight, So education is the key here, which I hope India is not on the Wrong path.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, I dont want to start one more off topic post by replying you but the only thing is expected a sane description and on topic discussion rather than commenting you on Pak's POV so strongly that it looks like a biased mod on this hot discussion. Only a line would suffice for cleaning up rather than strongly supporting a Troller's perspective.

The explanation was necessary - the perspective offered by Rafi, that I supported, has nothing wrong with it - both sides view the other as the aggressor, and there are plenty of other threads for arguing who did what when in each war. This is not 'one sided', it is reality and the 'middle way'.

This argument does not have to occur on every thread, and the argument distracts from discussing Pakistan's military deployments, defence budget, national security concerns etc.

 

[Splurgenxs]

lol this thread suddenly flared up... i thought it died..
The link Kayani’s gamble