Kayanis gamble: Pakistan pulls back troops from Indian border

[Icarus]

I sincerely don't understand what India is going to get by attacking Pakistan at least at this point of time when the GDP is progressing at rapid pace. If Pakistan sends terrorist into India as per her economy, Let India send terrorists/support terrorists(All Indirectly) in the scale of her economy. If one bombs goes off in one civilian place in India or a one group of non-state Pakistanis enters India. Let India make sure 10 bombs goes off in Pakistani military establishment(Civilians not to be disturbed in any case) and destroy Pakistani Tanks and F16's(We should befriend Taliban for that, They had proved their mettle in that and are true heros!) and train & send 100 groups into attacking all military centers.

Let us give the enemy the taste of his own medicine. So Taliban is the key here... Motivate them to take over Pakistani nukes, then US will take care of the rest.... So never gamble, Never move the soldiers from the east border. We are threat no. 1.

You guys are already doing that quite well.................carry on, if anything, this conflict is just strengthening our military. PA is no longer the bakery running, golf-course maintaining force of the 90s. Its a blood-thirsty, deadly effective, well-oiled fighting machine.

 

[Rafi]

You guys are already doing that quite well.................carry on, if anything, this conflict is just strengthening our military. PA is no longer the bakery running, golf-course maintaining force of the 90s. Its a blood-thirsty, deadly effective, well-oiled fighting machine.

Well said, our forces are battle hardened - and we have done much better than the first-world-ers in ISAF - our operations in Swat and SWA are a marked success in comparison to the failures in A'Stan.

 

[Tshering22]

I sincerely don't understand what India is going to get by attacking Pakistan at least at this point of time when the GDP is progressing at rapid pace. If Pakistan sends terrorist into India as per her economy, Let India send terrorists/support terrorists(All Indirectly) in the scale of her economy. If one bombs goes off in one civilian place in India or a one group of non-state Pakistanis enters India. Let India make sure 10 bombs goes off in Pakistani military establishment(Civilians not to be disturbed in any case) and destroy Pakistani Tanks and F16's(We should befriend Taliban for that, They had proved their mettle in that and are true heros!) and train & send 100 groups into attacking all military centers.

Let us give the enemy the taste of his own medicine. So Taliban is the key here... Motivate them to take over Pakistani nukes, then US will take care of the rest.... So never gamble, Never move the soldiers from the east border. We are threat no. 1.

A very shallow set of actions described in the light of very legitimate national interests. You need to understand the gravity of the situation. The Taliban are not controllable. They are just like a nuclear reaction that cannot be controlled. Only it can be destroyed before it gets a chance to get over your head. Taliban is the number one threat to all the peace in the entire south Asia. I know we don't get along with Pakistan but there are other rogue elements there that are not anti-India and hence our (potential) support to such agencies lest the need be, is much safer than compared to dealing with cut-throat terrorists that the Taliban. Remember, they are a threat especially to us (kafir) first as much as they are greedy to take over Pakistani nuclear establishment.

Taliban has to be exterminated. It has to be crushed root and boot and ensured that it never raises its ugly head, no matter to what extent all the world's militaries have to go. There should be no stopping to use of severe force be it gunships, tanks, fight jets, troops, commandos and what not to stop their evil. Taliban might be a creation of Pakistan and attacking them back, but they are a threat to first India and then Israel. This makes it all the more detrimental that our military gets extra powers to decide and VETO the weak civilian leadership in case of an emergency situation unless we get into trouble just as in Nehru's era we landed ourselves in deep $h!t.

 

[DV RULES]

Fight Against Extremists Stretches Pakistan

Here situation is different

Pakistani Military on the Wrong Border | EastWest Institute

 

[Icarus]

A very shallow set of actions described in the light of very legitimate national interests. You need to understand the gravity of the situation. The Taliban are not controllable. They are just like a nuclear reaction that cannot be controlled. Only it can be destroyed before it gets a chance to get over your head. Taliban is the number one threat to all the peace in the entire south Asia. I know we don't get along with Pakistan but there are other rogue elements there that are not anti-India and hence our (potential) support to such agencies lest the need be, is much safer than compared to dealing with cut-throat terrorists that the Taliban. Remember, they are a threat especially to us (kafir) first as much as they are greedy to take over Pakistani nuclear establishment.

Taliban has to be exterminated. It has to be crushed root and boot and ensured that it never raises its ugly head, no matter to what extent all the world's militaries have to go. There should be no stopping to use of severe force be it gunships, tanks, fight jets, troops, commandos and what not to stop their evil. Taliban might be a creation of Pakistan and attacking them back, but they are a threat to first India and then Israel. This makes it all the more detrimental that our military gets extra powers to decide and VETO the weak civilian leadership in case of an emergency situation unless we get into trouble just as in Nehru's era we landed ourselves in deep $h!t.

These guys are what remains of the Mujahideen from the Soviet-Afghan war. How is it that they are now a single-handedly Pakistani creation ? I remember it was the US who paid them, Israel who armed them, we just gave them sanctuaries.

 

[Icarus]

I sincerely don't understand what India is going to get by attacking Pakistan at least at this point of time when the GDP is progressing at rapid pace. If Pakistan sends terrorist into India as per her economy, Let India send terrorists/support terrorists(All Indirectly) in the scale of her economy. If one bombs goes off in one civilian place in India or a one group of non-state Pakistanis enters India. Let India make sure 10 bombs goes off in Pakistani military establishment(Civilians not to be disturbed in any case) and destroy Pakistani Tanks and F16's(We should befriend Taliban for that, They had proved their mettle in that and are true heros!) and train & send 100 groups into attacking all military centers.

Let us give the enemy the taste of his own medicine. So Taliban is the key here... Motivate them to take over Pakistani nukes, then US will take care of the rest.... So never gamble, Never move the soldiers from the east border. We are threat no. 1.

I still can't get over your post, it is the single most well written proof of idiocy I have ever seen in my 2 years on this forum. You actually believe that you can control the Taliban ? And then you believe that they can destroy or take over our assets ? Getting 2 aircraft in 10 years is a pretty poor ratio.
And forget about the nukes, even India can only speculate about their locations, what makes you think a rag-tag group of militants can actually "Take them over" ?
Do remember, if you set fire to other's house, sooner or later you end up burnt yourself.............

 

[Tshering22]

Well said, our forces are battle hardened - and we have done much better than the first-world-ers in ISAF - our operations in Swat and SWA are a marked success in comparison to the failures in A'Stan.

That is simply because you're more familiar with the region. Your comparative performance is still much lower than what is expected, costing more than 2000 troops loss of their precious lives. Do you know why? Not because PA is incapable; but because their obsession with India is severely affecting their ability to conduct counter-terrorism since they are trained to only fight in Thar, Sindh's plains and mountain borders of J&K against a known entity i.e us.

Taunting the NATO will not do any good because they are also used to train fighting against Russians/Soviets in the European plains rather than fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan. The Soviet Union suffered the same problem that NATO is facing now because they never expected that they would also have to enter Afghanistan to actually learn these tactics. US Marines are deadly--they can operate in the swamps of south America, in the arid plains of east Africa, in the cold snow of East Europe and in the deserts of Middle East-- but their one single weakness is high altitude warfare. Especially a terrain that is so high and the most hostile in this aspect itself. The rest of European forces are simply cannon fodder in Afghanistan. You should know that the entire Himalayan range and extending range to Afghanistan is a place where technology becomes useless.

So appreciate their effort in fighting in an alien terrain. This is just like if PA is put into the swampy marshlands of Amazon basin to fight an unknown enemy-- the picture would be very, very different.

You guys are already doing that quite well.................carry on, if anything, this conflict is just strengthening our military.

Trust me mate; if we really came to that, it won't have been this easy for your forces. We have a weakling PM and a corrupt PM-Controller coupled with an economy that needs to grow tenfold in a few years to sustain our peace and integrity. So we are more interested in increasing our defenses against a threat that is a hundred times more serious than you could ever be-- your big brother. What is happening in your country is because of your own actions that you attempted in 80s, dude.

If you didn't involve yourself in that mess, Pakistan could have become the Turkey of South Asia today.

 

[Tshering22]

These guys are what remains of the Mujahideen from the Soviet-Afghan war. How is it that they are now a single-handedly Pakistani creation ? I remember it was the US who paid them, Israel who armed them, we just gave them sanctuaries.

Israel armed Taliban? Can't really get over your obsession with them, can you? The Taliban is the frankenstein offspring that resulted as an alliance between you and US only. US paid for it, you groomed them; true. But US left the war long ago. They didn't ask you to sustain the Mujahideen against us. That was your own move. Your generals did it. So why drag US into this equation? Their job was over the moment Gorbachev announced Soviet withdrawal. Your generals got the wonderful idea of creating more bodies like these mujahideen for you own convenience and outsourced them PA's jobs.

See what giving them sanctuaries has costed you today. Every single militant organization from Chechen to Somalian to Afghan to Indonesian and what not insurgents have crawled into your lawless lands. Why blame everyone else?

 

[Icarus]

That is simply because you're more familiar with the region. Your comparative performance is still much lower than what is expected, costing more than 2000 troops loss of their precious lives.

Incorrect. PA had no presence in FATA. On the contrary, It is the Taliban who has a good knowledge of the terrain and how to derive maximum benefit from it. They have caves carved into solid rock which can withstand multiple artillery strikes.

Do you know why? Not because PA is incapable; but because their obsession with India is severely affecting their ability to conduct counter-terrorism since they are trained to only fight in Thar, Sindh's plains and mountain borders of J&K against a known entity i.e us.

Not entirely, a number of facilities are now training our troops in the art of Counter-insurgency. However, our major concern remains India.

Taunting the NATO will not do any good because they are also used to train fighting against Russians/Soviets in the European plains rather than fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan. The Soviet Union suffered the same problem that NATO is facing now because they never expected that they would also have to enter Afghanistan to actually learn these tactics. US Marines are deadly--they can operate in the swamps of south America, in the arid plains of east Africa, in the cold snow of East Europe and in the deserts of Middle East-- but their one single weakness is high altitude warfare. Especially a terrain that is so high and the most hostile in this aspect itself. The rest of European forces are simply cannon fodder in Afghanistan. You should know that the entire Himalayan range and extending range to Afghanistan is a place where technology becomes useless.

It is not their short comings that bother us, we honestly couldn't care less how poorly they do in Afghanistan. What bothers us is their rhetoric of "Do More". When they themselves are limited to their bases in Afghanistan.

So appreciate their effort in fighting in an alien terrain. This is just like if PA is put into the swampy marshlands of Amazon basin to fight an unknown enemy-- the picture would be very, very different.

Not entirely, The problem with US and NATO is that they refuse to fight this war as a Counter-Insurgency, they are still hell bent on making this work for them as a conventional war. They made the same mistake in Vietnam and we know how that turned out.

Trust me mate; if we really came to that, it won't have been this easy for your forces. We have a weakling PM and a corrupt PM-Controller coupled with an economy that needs to grow tenfold in a few years to sustain our peace and integrity. So we are more interested in increasing our defenses against a threat that is a hundred times more serious than you could ever be-- your big brother. What is happening in your country is because of your own actions that you attempted in 80s, dude

.

I accept that India is neither the only nor the largest player in this conflict, however, you guys are far from being angles. There are groups in the TTP who derive considerable benefit from Indian presence in Afghanistan.

If you didn't involve yourself in that mess, Pakistan could have become the Turkey of South Asia today.

The policy at the time made sense, Stop the Soviets or we are next.

 

[Rafi]

Israel armed Taliban? Can't really get over your obsession with them, can you? The Taliban is the frankenstein offspring that resulted as an alliance between you and US only. US paid for it, you groomed them; true. But US left the war long ago. They didn't ask you to sustain the Mujahideen against us. That was your own move. Your generals did it. So why drag US into this equation? Their job was over the moment Gorbachev announced Soviet withdrawal. Your generals got the wonderful idea of creating more bodies like these mujahideen for you own convenience and outsourced them PA's jobs.

See what giving them sanctuaries has costed you today. Every single militant organization from Chechen to Somalian to Afghan to Indonesian and what not insurgents have crawled into your lawless lands. Why blame everyone else?

Israel supplied a lot of the ex-Soviet arms supplied to the Arabs but captured in the various wars.

 

[Icarus]

Israel armed Taliban? Can't really get over your obsession with them, can you? The Taliban is the frankenstein offspring that resulted as an alliance between you and US only. US paid for it, you groomed them; true. But US left the war long ago. They didn't ask you to sustain the Mujahideen against us. That was your own move. Your generals did it. So why drag US into this equation? Their job was over the moment Gorbachev announced Soviet withdrawal. Your generals got the wonderful idea of creating more bodies like these mujahideen for you own convenience and outsourced them PA's jobs.

See what giving them sanctuaries has costed you today. Every single militant organization from Chechen to Somalian to Afghan to Indonesian and what not insurgents have crawled into your lawless lands. Why blame everyone else?

Israel had the largest stockpile of soviet weapons outside of the soviet weapon. Being a covert operation, it wouldn't have been a very good one if the Mujahideen ran around with M-16s. So they were armed with Soviet weapons collected during the course of the Arab-Israeli wars. That's how Israel armed them. After the withdrawal was announced, we did not continue to nurture the Taliban. We just supported their government because we wanted a stable Afghanistan so that the 6.3 Million refugees would go back.........................

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Israel armed Taliban?...

I didn't hear him say the Taliban. I heard him say Soviet-era resistance-fighters, from whom both the Northern Alliance and the Taliban came about.

Obviously we do understand that you're not seasoned enough of a forumer to know that many of the AKs came from Israel from their '73 war booty.

 

[Jango]

a big clean up job !!,,,,somebody ban this jikki guy.

 

[W.11]

news from blog lollzzz

 

[Tshering22]

Incorrect. PA has no presence in FATA. On the contrary, It is the Taliban who has a good knowledge of the terrain and how to derive maximum benefit from it. They have caves carved into solid rock which can withstand multiple artillery strikes.

And that's precisely the reason that is making your army's job 10 times tougher than it is supposed to be. You gave FATA a free ride rather than integrating them. Conventionally Taliban are having very limited tactics and strategy because of no proper organized military force. They are using the same and despite your nation having the resources and backing of an entire people, still are finding it hard. The key to defeat Taliban is to use their tactics against them. To Ambush their attacks rather than use fighters to bomb them.

No entirely, a number of facilities are now training our troops in the art of Counter-insurgency. However, our major concern remains India.

Despite the fact that we have a puppet PM and a scamster government right now with zero power to the tri-services to take over. Kayani is so desperate to get the troops back to our border that he's not able to even focus on WOT properly. His personal whim and the reality are at a collision course right now and hence Pakistan's uncomfortable position.

It is not their short comings that bother us, we honestly couldn't care less how poorly they do in Afghanistan. What bothers us is their rhetoric of "Do More". When they themselves are limited to their bases in Afghanistan.

That's because you're a part of it and the presence of duplicity in some rogue elements as the NATO suspect in your intelligence and military agencies that are playing double role. This is really affecting their own combat operations and that is why the "do more" rhetoric.

Not entirely, The problem with US and NATO is that they refuse to fight this war as a Counter-Insurgency, they are still hell bent on making this work for them as a conventional war. They made the same mistake in Vietnam and we know how that turned out.

They are simply testing their new weapon systems that they will sell for billions around the world and make a profit. As soon as that objective is met, the will "lose" and withdraw and go back to their homeland more than 5,000 miles away. They can afford to choose the combat format as they wish. The question here is-- can you?

I accept that India is neither the only nor the largest player in this conflict, however, you guys are far from being angles. There are groups in the TTP who derive considerable benefit from Indian presence in Afghanistan.

A fact that has never been proven till date despite your interior minister constantly harping of "will provide proof at the right time". When is his right time coming than not now when your entire country has become a warzone due to your own creations?

The policy at the time made sense, Stop the Soviets or we are next.

Ask this question to your generals. We too dealt with the Soviets and mind you, we never had any such issues despite dealing with a superpower. How come you did?