Kashmir: why talk to India?

[Taimoor Khan]

UN is the Shit Organisation. The Kashmir issue is a bilateral issue between India and Pakistan. Hence, any third party can't do anything.

I hope Zardari Saabh wins next election in Pakistan.

It may be but it does give sense of legitimacy for the kinetic actions. Even America had to go to UN before it leveled Iraq. As for Zardari, he is a "baghora" at the moment with strong chance of being in jail for murdering his own wife for lust of power for himself.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Good to know you personal story. Now, what about those tall claims of Pakistani naval supremacy or trend setting? Got any facts to back your claims?

Yes...we introduced submarine in region....Check it out....u joined us later. We r still pioneer of subs in our sea.... We r senior than you...

Can you elaborate??

Yes....I meant to say that at the charge in of India, we won't care and will go along with CPEC, doesn't matter how much India gets pissed off....

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...n-policy-economic-corridor-with-china.445474/

The possibility of such is negligible- I mean people haven't even imagined such thing-

I was not talking about physical abuse or fight, meant just little tense debate or hot verbal exchange b/w the persons of respective states. Here we have Karachi-Lahore rivalry.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

I was not talking about physical abuse or fight, meant just little tense debate or hot verbal exchange b/w the persons of respective states. Here we have Karachi-Lahore rivalry.

Not even that- People are same speak same language, Politics is also similar- Food, culture everything is same- And they call each other Bhayya(brother)-

There is Bengal vs Bihar/UP rivalry, UP/Bihar vs Maharashtra, UP/Bihar vs Assam-

 

[Indika]

Submarines are constantly on the move? Doesn't it mean it's a costly affair?

They would only need food supplies. fuel anyway is a one time (6 months or 1 year) cost with these subs but they do give you the advantage of being hard to detect & second strike capability which is more than outweighs the cost factor.

 

[Pride]

Why Talk? Attack again just like 48, 65, 71 and 99. Lets meet again.

 

[guyhandz]

Or India's rematch of 1947(when pak took half kashmir), 1965 or 1999. Which ever u choose as a rematch...ur umpires..ur decision this time....2018 it is.

This is world cup match and Pakistan lose again...!

 

[Deepika Maheshwari]

Yes...we introduced submarine in region....Check it out....u joined us later. We r still pioneer of subs in our sea.... We r senior than you...

And we had aircraft carrier since beginning. Where is your AC btw? Wait. no AC till date and no plans? We have nuclear subs with huge range. Where is your nuclear sub? none?? Thats a pretty low-bar for 'senior' and trend setter. Its like a senior who fails and repeats a year with you, to do it all again with your juniors in college.

 

[my2cents]

The elephant in the room is that this strategy requires a brave and bold leader. With ganja we only have the bold bit. And that too in the follicle sense.

India have never been up front with talks far from it. They are duplicitous and conniving, the only language they understand is war, if they continue to oppress kashmiris, wage war in balochistan, fund TTP then we should answer in kind, hit them in their commercial heartlands, target economic interest and watch how money and business flows out of India. Thats the only way they will come to the table mark my word

We haven't even shot the fire, you guys are coming to conclusions that India is involved. Imagine if India is really involved like in 1971. Will Pakistan ever recover a nuclear conflict?

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

And we had aircraft carrier since beginning. Where is your AC btw? Wait. no AC till date and no plans? We have nuclear subs with huge range. Where is your nuclear sub? none?? Thats a pretty low-bar for 'senior' and trend setter. Its like a senior who fails and repeats a year with you, to do it all again with your juniors in college.

We completed all the basics and procured fundamental things like sub b4 u.......we don't have AC or nuke sub because it is not our priority or need.

 

[Penguin]

Pakistan would have to be hiding a large navy (several times larger especially in deep water capable ASW numbers) for that to happen. You can dream thats the case if you want

But the PN ORBAT as it stands is quite limited. I mean 8 - 10 frigates and 0 destroyers and you want to detect a blue water SSBN with that against a much larger navy? Okie dokie....

Lets bring @Penguin into this discussion too and see what he thinks are Pakistan's chances on effectively hunting an Indian SSBN or two

Conventional submarines make very good ASW platforms. Besides submarines, one should also consider MPA's (Orion) and landbased helicopters (Sea King). One doesn't need destroyers for ASW (besides, in terms of ASW capability, there is not a whole lot of difference between frigates and destroyers these days, perhaps mostly 1 versus 2 ASW helicopters and y/n a towed array, depending on which size frigates you wish to consider). The thing is, while the ocean is large, submarines in an attack role will have to come to certain areas where there are targets. The defending party can concentrate assets on those areas, and thus achieve local parity or even superiority even if the defending navy is small by comparison to the attacking navy.

Unlike SSNs, SSBNs would typically go out and remain invisible and silent until their B is required. But even a (singular) SSBN has to come to port sometime... A quiet SS, SSK or even minisub can mines the approaches with modern sea mines and/or sneak in and wait silently, while others assets keep the opposing force busy or at least looking elsewhere.

 

[Nilgiri]

Conventional submarines make very good ASW platforms. Besides submarines, one should also consider MPA's (Orion) and landbased helicopters (Sea King). One doesn't need destroyers for ASW (besides, in terms of ASW capability, there is not a whole lot of difference between frigates and destroyers these days, perhaps mostly 1 versus 2 ASW helicopters and y/n a towed array, depending on which size frigates you wish to consider). The thing is, while the ocean is large, submarines in an attack role will have to come to certain areas where there are targets. The defending party can concentrate assets on those areas, and thus achieve local parity or even superiority even if the defending navy is small by comparison to the attacking navy.

Unlike SSNs, SSBNs would typically go out and remain invisible and silent until their B is required. But even a (singular) SSBN has to come to port sometime... A quiet SS, SSK or even minisub can mines the approaches with modern sea mines and/or sneak in and wait silently, while others assets keep the opposing force busy or at least looking elsewhere.

This needs a lot of things to go right though...I mean somehow the SSK has to get all the way to any of the numerous harbors in the Eastern coast of India or the AnN island chain without the Indian navy getting in the way at some point....and also be really lucky in getting the port guess right.....in the event of a conflict there may not be enough time to wait for the SSBN to come back home anyway.

I just don't see the PN going out to the far blue ocean and pre-emptively targetting all of India's SSBNs in a first strike....or mining the approaches to say Vizag without anyone else noticing....or afford to wait that long....given a conflict would not be so drawn out esp if first strike comes into play and the B in SSBN has to be used anyway.

But your scenario does give something for Naval planners to think about and analyse.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1475221799170142

Check this out.

'Hum kya chahte azadi, yaha kya chalega nizam e mustafa etc'

Ex policeman openly accepts how he was threatened to leave his job and join the protests.

Irony overdose.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

They would only need food supplies. fuel anyway is a one time (6 months or 1 year) cost with these subs but they do give you the advantage of being hard to detect & second strike capability which is more than outweighs the cost factor.

I don't get it. Rather I don't believe you. I don't buy your arguments. A submarine which carries a high load like nukes doesn't require any expenditure to be moved around?

 

[Deepika Maheshwari]

We completed all the basics and procured fundamental things like sub b4 u.......we don't have AC or nuke sub because it is not our priority or need.

Conventional submarines make very good ASW platforms. Besides submarines, one should also consider MPA's (Orion) and landbased helicopters (Sea King). One doesn't need destroyers for ASW (besides, in terms of ASW capability, there is not a whole lot of difference between frigates and destroyers these days, perhaps mostly 1 versus 2 ASW helicopters and y/n a towed array, depending on which size frigates you wish to consider). The thing is, while the ocean is large, submarines in an attack role will have to come to certain areas where there are targets. The defending party can concentrate assets on those areas, and thus achieve local parity or even superiority even if the defending navy is small by comparison to the attacking navy.

Unlike SSNs, SSBNs would typically go out and remain invisible and silent until their B is required. But even a (singular) SSBN has to come to port sometime... A quiet SS, SSK or even minisub can mines the approaches with modern sea mines and/or sneak in and wait silently, while others assets keep the opposing force busy or at least looking elsewhere.

Thats exactly why you keep multiple ports and keep the schedule and deployment patterns secret. Plus, you keep multiple subs. So anytime there is a bunch of subs deep in the water hidden from enemy eyes.

 

[Penguin]

Thats exactly why you keep multiple ports and keep the schedule and deployment patterns secret. Plus, you keep multiple subs. So anytime there is a bunch of subs deep in the water hidden from enemy eyes.

That is, assuming you have enough SSBNs. You need about 5 to have 1 permanently in its area of operation (same as with US carriers groups).

" INS Arihant, was launched on 26 July 2009 in Visakhapatnam (India) and is currently undergoing sea trials. The Navy plans to have six nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines in service in the near future. She is both the first boat of the Arihant-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines and the first nuclear-powered submarine to be built in India."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Navy#Submarines
Arihant would be INs first and - for the time being only - SSBN

" Exact number of planned submarines remains unclear, according to media reports about three to six submarines are planned to be built.The first boat of the class, INS Arihant is expected to be commissioned by 2016. The first four vessels are expected to be commissioned by 2023. In December 2014, the work on a second nuclear reactor began and the second boat, INS Aridhaman is being prepared for sea trials. The next three ships in the class, after the lead ship, will be larger and have 8 missile launch tubes to carry up to 8 K4 and a more powerful pressurized water reactor than INS Arihant. A larger follow on class to the Arihant class is also planned, these new boats will be capable of carrying 12 to 16 ballistic missiles"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arihant-class_submarine
1 by end of 2016, 4 by end of 2023 (if all goes to plan). That mean 1 at sea at all times. Not a whole bunch.

K-15 Sagarika submarine launched ballistic missile

• 750 km (435 mi) with 1,000 kg payload
• 1,900 km (1,200 mi) with 180 kg payload

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagarika_(missile)
Depending on the weight of a nuclear warhead, it may well be that IN SSBN need to remain relatively close to e.g. Pakistan if they are to strike effectively ... Note that the wiki says ' nuclear capable' , not ' fitted with a nuke' : it is fully operational in that sense?

" The navy is coming up with a secret base on the east coast, under the code name Project Varsha, to berth its upcoming fleet of nuclear submarines."
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-navy-creating-a-new-base-for-nuke-submarines-1395220
You can't and don't park your SSBNs in just any port.... IN will have a special base for its nukes.