KASHMIR | The Great Game | Challenges for Pak-China-Russia

[Mysticbuddy]

It was a humble request from OP to Indian posters to save their energy for other threads. That request includes other nationalities of Indian origin. Am I right @Pakistan First?

I am not of Indian origin either FYI. But thanks for clarifying the other part as well.

Hopefully you have a better understanding and will find my arguments clear to imbibe.

 

[Pakistan First]

Onwards we move then, young sister.

You are the leader and facilitator of this discussion...guide as you wish in order of pirority you choose to benefit outcome.

It is time for Pak to write the History of the Future as China is writing the History of the Future.

Let the Great Rebirth of Pak Begin!!!!

My dear sinopakfriend, you're embarrassing me now

I'm not the leader, but a mere facilitator to this discussion. Please proceed ahead as per your wish and wisdom and continue to enlighten us as you feel appropriate.

To all members,

Let us please try to frame our feedbacks in a methodical manner touching upon (or atleast giving due thought to) the following and in the following manner to help shape up the discussion in a well organised and holistic & complete manner. Pondering over the questions raised below (as originally suggested by @Sinopakfriend) will immensely help each one of us to open up our minds and enable us to think on a much larger scale. As Morpheus said, "It will free your mind".

1- What is happening on the global stage?

2- How does eurasia becomes critical in the global game?

3- Why your country is pivitol in these equations?

4- What are the emerging polarities of power on the eurasian landmass?

5- Why would indian empire join the global emperial order instead of becoming a solid pillar of asian order?

6- How CPEC is a vital artefact into the grand asian architecture?

7- How does Kashmir becomes critical for both global empire and the emerging / consolidating eurasian axis?

It was a humble request from OP to Indian posters to save their energy for other threads. That request includes other nationalities of Indian origin. Am I right @Pakistan First?

Absolutely

My simple Question to @Pakistan First

Can you please let me know where UN or its peace security force ever delivered where Muslims needs it ?

UN and its peace security always failed to deliver... Kashmir, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, every where...

Thanks for your post in my thread, but i would not like to answer this as it would derail the discussion and take us somewhere else. Please try to follow the thought process in the manner requested in my post above as it would really help not only everyone, but our own selves in structuring our thoughts on this topic properly.

 

[PakSword]

Pakistan is known supporter and sponsor of terrorism in Kashmir.

I am not of Indian origin either FYI. But thanks for clarifying the other part as well.

Hopefully you have a better understanding and will find my arguments clear to imbibe.

Last time I checked, US position was different on IOK. Has US ever said that Pakistan is a known supporter of terrorism in Kashmir. It is Indian position that you are supporting instead of your own country US (if you are really a native US national.

 

[hassamun]

@Pakistan First I like your ideas and logic...keep them up...

With regards to UN not being active...UNMOGIP is still in India and Pakistan...They are monitoring the LoC...I have read that the Indian Government wants them to leave...If they can be active here since 1948 then why can't a peacekeeping force enter Kashmir? The LoC is also a matter concerning India and Pakistan only...

 

[Mysticbuddy]

My dear sinopakfriend, you're embarrassing me now

I'm not the leader, but a mere facilitator to this discussion. Please proceed ahead as per your wish and wisdom and continue to enlighten us as you feel appropriate.

To all members,

Let us please try to frame our feedbacks in a methodical manner touching upon (or atleast giving due thought to) the following and in the following manner to help shape up the discussion in a well organised and holistic & complete manner.


1- What is happening on the global stage?

A lot... Brexit.. problems with Spain and Italy. World economy coming back, etc

2- How does eurasia becomes critical in the global game?

Asia is going to have the 21st century to its name. Europe will only come strong if EU exist in its current form.

3- Why your country is pivitol in these equations?

It is going to make the most investment and will change the future.

4- What are the emerging polarities of power on the eurasian landmass?

China is going to be the new goon of the block. Communism vs Democracy 2 going at it again.

5- Why would indian empire join the global emperial order instead of becoming a solid pillar of asian order?

The economies will twine around each other so much that it will affect all in some shape or form.

6- How CPEC is a vital artefact into the grand asian architecture?

It will be the new dumping ground for China. It will be nothing more than a route and some service stations along the way. No economical in any way but a bypass way for China.

7- How does Kashmir becomes critical for both global empire and the emerging / consolidating eurasian axis?

It is a non existent issue for any country since there is no way Pakistan can let it go or have it completely.

Absolutely


Thanks for your post in my thread, but i would not like to answer this as it would derail the discussion and take us somewhere else. Please try to follow the thought process in the manner requested in my post above as it would really help not only everyone, but our own selves in structuring our thoughts on this topic properly.

I don't know what are you trying to get as a part of Kashmir and then part of bonus round of 10 questions. But I will try since I joined the party. Find my comments inline to your questions.

 

[Leviza]

Thanks for your post in my thread, but i would not like to answer this as it would derail the discussion and take us somewhere else. Please try to follow the thought process in the manner requested in my post above as it would really help not only everyone, but our own selves in structuring our thoughts on this topic properly.

Thanks for the point and i 100% understand what you are trying to say. Discussions need to be done in proper way, looking at all the data at hand to be evaluated,

One should not close eyes to the fact that someone else wont come and solve our problems or issues, We need to stand and do it.

The reason i highlighted UN failures is that UN is just meant to keep powerful happy. UN cannot interfere into anything which powerful countries do not support. that is the issue all over the world ATM.

Kashmir issue is directly effects people of Pakistan and its really close to our hearts , but if we see it from world perspective, its not that big, they are not much concerned if its not effecting them. recently UN is more concerned about Syria and US interests in it as its directly effecting Europe.

As far as .UNMOGIP is concerned, they are just face saving for UN, nothing else, they haven't done anything when India start violating LOC few years ago . just Reports and Reports thats what they do and these reports just become a part of file cabinet somewhere.

 

[Mysticbuddy]

Last time I checked, US position was different on IOK. Has US ever said that Pakistan is a known supporter of terrorism in Kashmir. It is Indian position that you are supporting instead of your own country US (if you are really a native US national.

Well US has not said the same for Pakistan in the case of Afghanistan either so Pakistan has nothing to do there as well.

As for replying look for my arguments and not nationality. If you don't have sufficient answer then be humble enough to borrow time.

I am of the opinion that US would want an independent Kashmir to have it as a proxy against China (as acknowledged by an ISI agent on Geo's Jirga Program which claimed that ISI foiled CIA's attempt to promote Independent Kashmir movement). As for as Pakistan's stance on Kashmir, I humbly posit the argument that Pakistan is using it as a pressure tactic to stop India from destabilizing Pakistan. Its Pakistan saying to India that we have influence in Kashmir and we can use it to destabilize you. I can never see India giving up Kashmir, the best that could happen is what Manmohan was trying to achieve ie. "make LOC irrelevant".

-- From dawn dawn/news/1080811
Musharraf spoke in similar terms to Geo on Oct 23, 2006: “We need to find a via media between these two positions which would mean self-governance (for both parts of Kashmir) with a joint management system at the top for both sides of the LoC and you make the LoC irrelevant.”

I don't think US wants to get into the mess of Kashmir. Yes it's a headache for them. Almost they can use that as a bargaining chip for their ally to join them for their support. My only concern is chances of that being Pakistan is from slim to none. Certainly because of the backstabbing done.

Find my Answers in RED, i have just given answers where correction needed and other point are so wrong, they dont even qualify to get a response....

It will be a even bigger mess to call the UN troops.

1. Kashmir is not a dispute recognized by UN then why would it pay for it.
WRONG : PLEASE GO AND READ AGAIN.. ITS A DISPUTED AREA

As per the last I researched, it's not a UN recognized dispute since 2010.

2. It was never a proclaimed solution by UN.

3. Pakistan has signed accord with India to settle the same.

4. By for the most important is that India and Pakistan are the biggest donars of the UN peace keeping force that will led to issues in commanding offices and chain of command.

5. Pakistan has never stuck to one position and/or solution.
WRONG : PAKISTAN ALWAYS SAID MORAL SUPPORT TO KASHMIR AND LET THEM DECIDE WHAT THEY WANT

The moral support comes with arms and ammunition with people from Pakistan being trained and sent. As to justify, the answer it means that it didn't honor the UN resolution and/or Shimla accord.

6. Pakistan is known supporter and sponsor of terrorism in Kashmir.
WRONG : THERE IS A THING CALLED FREEDOM FIGHTING , THAT IS WHATS GOING ON IN KASHMIR

So Baluchistan is also the same. So TTP and ISIS are freedom fighters. It's a funny correlation when things come back to Pakistan.

I can give you five more but this should give you the picture.

Since you try to leave a lot as not worth mentioning. Let me add.

7. Giving territory to China
Pakistan gave the freedom fighters land to china without conscent

8. Safe havens and training for freedom fighters of all the world.

9. The current state of the state. It imbibed the territory of the Kashmir and merged with itself.

10. No accord of annexation.
Kashmir was annexed to India with its kings permission permanently. Well it doesn't have it with Baluchistan either.

11. The current leftover part is begging for aid from US, India and UN continuously. It doesn't have the power to self govern either. The educational and powerful index are the worst in Pakistan itself.

Hope you have some answers or can find some except blaming US for giving aid, India for giving your country and Israel for the evil.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Dear Pak Posters,

Please, follow our lady's @Pakistan First lead and direction.

I would like to hear from Pak poster and friends of Pak, what in their view is the breakdown on the first question:

1- What is happening on the global stage?

Please, try to frame your analysis, opinions in cohesive way instead wasting energy on indian posters who of course would wish that you remain embroiled in the mess they create.

After this first question is fully covered, @Pakistan First will make a synthesis of discussion in her capacity as facilitator. After that we should move to the next point.

I know structured thinking is hard work and it is easy to be distracted by indian insuluts, ill wishes and taunts.

Let us just for once ignore indians and not let this great thread be derailed.

So, once again what you, Pak and Pak friends, think about the following:

1- What is happening on the global stage?

 

[Leviza]

Well US has not said the same for Pakistan in the case of Afghanistan either so Pakistan has nothing to do there as well.

As for replying look for my arguments and not nationality. If you don't have sufficient answer then be humble enough to borrow time.
I don't think US wants to get into the mess of Kashmir. Yes it's a headache for them. Almost they can use that as a bargaining chip for their ally to join them for their support. My only concern is chances of that being Pakistan is from slim to none. Certainly because of the backstabbing done.

It will be a even bigger mess to call the UN troops.
1. Kashmir is not a dispute recognized by UN then why would it pay for it.
WRONG : PLEASE GO AND READ AGAIN.. ITS A DISPUTED AREA
As per the last I researched, it's not a UN recognized dispute since 2010.
2. It was never a proclaimed solution by UN.
3. Pakistan has signed accord with India to settle the same.
4. By for the most important is that India and Pakistan are the biggest donars of the UN peace keeping force that will led to issues in commanding offices and chain of command.
5. Pakistan has never stuck to one position and/or solution.
WRONG : PAKISTAN ALWAYS SAID MORAL SUPPORT TO KASHMIR AND LET THEM DECIDE WHAT THEY WANT
The moral support comes with arms and ammunition with people from Pakistan being trained and sent. As to justify, the answer it means that it didn't honor the UN resolution and/or Shimla accord.
6. Pakistan is known supporter and sponsor of terrorism in Kashmir.
WRONG : THERE IS A THING CALLED FREEDOM FIGHTING , THAT IS WHATS GOING ON IN KASHMIR
So Baluchistan is also the same. So TTP and ISIS are freedom fighters. It's a funny correlation when things come back to Pakistan.
I can give you five more but this should give you the picture.
Since you try to leave a lot as not worth mentioning. Let me add.
7. Giving territory to China
Pakistan gave the freedom fighters land to china without conscent
8. Safe havens and training for freedom fighters of all the world.
9. The current state of the state. It imbibed the territory of the Kashmir and merged with itself.
10. No accord of annexation.
Kashmir was annexed to India with its kings permission permanently. Well it doesn't have it with Baluchistan either.
11. The current leftover part is begging for aid from US, India and UN continuously. It doesn't have the power to self govern either. The educational and powerful index are the worst in Pakistan itself.
Hope you have some answers or can find some except blaming US for giving aid, India for giving your country and Israel for the evil.

So before in go into details of all the questions you have put in , let me ask you something simple ...
We all know USA had a ban on MODI to travel to USA before he was elected as PM of india.

The question is WHY , US gov removed it. were they wrong when they put it in place for MODI OR becoming indian PM changed his all the wrong doing before..

So USA do not stand what it claims to be the case and what about we do not talk(negotitate) or trade with terrorist logic?

No need for long discussion, just tell when USA was wrong, BAN on Modi to Removing the BAN ..

 

[PakSword]

1- What is happening on the global stage?

2- How does eurasia becomes critical in the global game?

3- Why your country is pivitol in these equations?

4- What are the emerging polarities of power on the eurasian landmass?

5- Why would indian empire join the global emperial order instead of becoming a solid pillar of asian order?

6- How CPEC is a vital artefact into the grand asian architecture?

7- How does Kashmir becomes critical for both global empire and the emerging / consolidating eurasian axis?

1, 2, 3, 4 - There is so much to write in response to these questions. New alliances are being formed priorities are being changed. It was a bipolar world till USSR was broken and lost its superpower status. US since then has enjoyed unprecedented position on the global stage and literally dictated many countries for her own illegitimate reasons. Some examples include second Iraq war, Libya, Syria and many others. US wants to enjoy this status for next many decades and will go to any extent to restrict any other country from sharing this position and making the world bipolar again.

Chinese ambitions are very clear in this regard. They are fast climbing to the position where they will be easily challenging US status. US obviously doesn't want China to take Russian position because US will have to lose so many benefits of uni-polar world. Some examples include SCS, North Korea etc where US will lose its position.

To make China unable to attain this status, it is important to capitalize on existing hostilities that China has with other countries. One of such countries is India that has immense potential to act as a watch dog on China in this region. It is important to note that US has nothing against Pakistan, but it's Pakistan's friendship with China ans animosity towards India that is bothering US and it is ready to sacrifice long term ally (Pakistan) in this new cold war against China.

China, although a very powerful country, cannot fight this cold war alone. So they have made an unannounced alliance with Russia. Russia has also realized that India is the new US pawn in this game. China, being Pakistan's only reliable friend in the region, has partially succeeded in making Russia realize that Russians can trust Pakistan in future. Recent Russian exercise with Pakistani forces, sale of Russian helicopters to Pakistan is just the beginning. There is a long way to go to bring Pakistan-Russia relations to that stage where Russia will start fulfilling many of our defense requirements. However, as of now, Pakistan and Russia are moving in the right direction, thanks to China.

Very soon (within next 5-10 years), we will see two blocks. One China-Russia and the other will be US-NATO. Turkey has also realized that US is a backstabber and they will never be accepted in EU and therefore is being tilted towards this future alliance. GCC countries (being left alone after less demand of oil from US due to her own shale oil production) will have to join this alliance. Iran is still in limbo. US wants to take Iran on board and recent removal of sanctions is one attempt to achieve this. Iran is still in Limbo as she is still evaluating Indian offer of investments and Chinese prospective offer to buy her oil/ gas.

5 - As noted above, India will join US/ NATO block. India will have to join one as in the bipolar world it is very difficult to survive. In fact India has taken all the steps to join US/NATO block. If India doesn't join any block, her dream of becoming big Asian power will not come true, ever.

6 - CPEC is part of OBOR. The question should be about OBOR not CPEC. Anyway, OBOR will not be able to achieve its objectives without CPEC. CPEC is not only important for Pakistan, but for China, Russia (that attempted to find a way to warm waters in the past and failed miserably), Central Asian republics etc. CPEC will provide immense strength to the economy of China and Russia. Remember, USSR didn't fail because they were technologically weak, they failed because they didn't have the economy to support them in Afghan war against US/ Europe. This time around, they will have China on their side, and infrastructure (if they join OBOR). OBOR is therefore a killer for US/NATO/India alliance. They want an alternate and Chahbahar is one of the many alternatives in consideration. It is on Iran now how she plays in this global game.

7 - Kashmir is a dispute due to which US/ NATO are able to bring India on their side because of Pakistan's friendship/ alliance with China. Remember, peaceful resolution of Kashmir means India will not need anyone. She can become a formidable economic power in Asia without spending a dime on their defense. They may also join OBOR if there is no dispute between them and Chinese ally. This will end the rule of US/ NATO in Asia for some centuries.

 

[hassamun]

@Mysticbuddy : Good responses mate...but there are some things about Baluchistan that you don't know...you might need a Kashmir vs Baluchistan thread but I will mention a few things below (I have mentioned some in the past)

I. Kashmir:-
1. Majority wants Freedom.
2. Violent Protests: Shooting of Pellet Bullets at protesters, hundreds dead, wounded and blinded including children
3. Freedom parties are terrorists by definition (not allowed in politics)
4. Thousands killed, missing, injured, raped without impunity by Indian security forces. Not even one person punished.
5. Best known for natural scenery.
6. Mostly green.

II. Baluchistan:-
1. Minority wants Freedom.
2. Minimum Protests: No one dies
3. Freedom parties have their own legal political parties and occupy less than 5% of seats in Baluchistan Parliament
4. Only a few people targeted with collaborative evidence.
5. Best known for natural resources.
6. Mostly dry and arid.

So my friend I am basically tired of seeing the Baluchistan Trump Card used by many...Hope you understand...

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

1, 2, 3, 4 - There is so much to write in response to these questions. New alliances are being formed priorities are being changed. It was a bipolar world till USSR was broken and lost its superpower status. US since then has enjoyed unprecedented position on the global stage and literally dictated many countries for her own illegitimate reasons. Some examples include second Iraq war, Libya, Syria and many others. US wants to enjoy this status for next many decades and will go to any extent to restrict any other country from sharing this position and making the world bipolar again.

Chinese ambitions are very clear in this regard. They are fast climbing to the position where they will be easily challenging US status. US obviously doesn't want China to take Russian position because US will have to lose so many benefits of uni-polar world. Some examples include SCS, North Korea etc where US will lose its position.

To make China unable to attain this status, it is important to capitalize on existing hostilities that China has with other countries. One of such countries is India that has immense potential to act as a watch dog on China in this region. It is important to note that US has nothing against Pakistan, but it's Pakistan's friendship with China ans animosity towards India that is bothering US and it is ready to sacrifice long term ally (Pakistan) in this new cold war against China.

China, although a very powerful country, cannot fight this cold war alone. So they have made an unannounced alliance with Russia. Russia has also realized that India is the new US pawn in this game. China, being Pakistan's only reliable friend in the region, has partially succeeded in making Russia realize that Russians can trust Pakistan in future. Recent Russian exercise with Pakistani forces, sale of Russian helicopters to Pakistan is just the beginning. There is a long way to go to bring Pakistan-Russia relations to that stage where Russia will start fulfilling many of our defense requirements. However, as of now, Pakistan and Russia are moving in the right direction, thanks to China.

Very soon (within next 5-10 years), we will see two blocks. One China-Russia and the other will be US-NATO. Turkey has also realized that US is a backstabber and they will never be accepted in EU and therefore is being tilted towards this future alliance. GCC countries (being left alone after less demand of oil from US due to her own shale oil production) will have to join this alliance. Iran is still in limbo. US wants to take Iran on board and recent removal of sanctions is one attempt to achieve this. Iran is still in Limbo as she is still evaluating Indian offer of investments and Chinese prospective offer to buy her oil/ gas.

5 - As noted above, India will join US/ NATO block. India will have to join one as in the bipolar world it is very difficult to survive. In fact India has taken all the steps to join US/NATO block. If India doesn't join any block, her dream of becoming big Asian power will not come true, ever.

6 - CPEC is part of OBOR. The question should be about OBOR not CPEC. Anyway, OBOR will not be able to achieve its objectives without CPEC. CPEC is not only important for Pakistan, but for China, Russia (that attempted to find a way to warm waters in the past and failed miserably), Central Asian republics etc. CPEC will provide immense strength to the economy of China and Russia. Remember, USSR didn't fail because they were technologically weak, they failed because they didn't have the economy to support them in Afghan war against US/ Europe. This time around, they will have China on their side, and infrastructure (if they join OBOR). OBOR is therefore a killer for US/NATO/India alliance. They want an alternate and Chahbahar is one of the many alternatives in consideration. It is on Iran now how she plays in this global game.

7 - Kashmir is a dispute due to which US/ NATO are able to bring India on their side because of Pakistan's friendship/ alliance with China. Remember, peaceful resolution of Kashmir means India will not need anyone. She can become a formidable economic power in Asia without spending a dime on their defense. They may also join OBOR if there is no dispute between them and Chinese ally. This will end the rule of US/ NATO in Asia for some centuries.

My dear Pak brother,

Great start. Very valid points raised.

However, if I may ask you, please expand your canvas. Think about South America and Africa. What is happening there?

Please, also expand on your views regarding the Pacific Ocean.

What are your veiws on Japan, its declining population and its shrinking tech gap with China?

What is happening in the world financial markets?

How do zero interest rates effect the global power balance?

What is the level of gloal debt to global GDP ratio?

If I may, I would ask other Pak and Pak Friends posters to join in with their views on this great and extremely relevant topic.

Kindly, leave the religion bit out. That is only smoke screen for the masses.

@Kaptaan young brother your analysis will help shape the discussion. If you have time?

 

[Rajeev_Anand]

where in books can be published....

My dear sinopakfriend, you're embarrassing me now

I'm not the leader, but a mere facilitator to this discussion. Please proceed ahead as per your wish and wisdom and continue to enlighten us as you feel appropriate.

To all members,

Let us please try to frame our feedbacks in a methodical manner touching upon (or atleast giving due thought to) the following and in the following manner to help shape up the discussion in a well organised and holistic & complete manner. Pondering over the questions raised below (as originally suggested by @Sinopakfriend) will immensely help each one of us to open up our minds and enable us to think on a much larger scale. As Morpheus said, "It will free your mind".

1- What is happening on the global stage?

2- How does eurasia becomes critical in the global game?

3- Why your country is pivitol in these equations?

4- What are the emerging polarities of power on the eurasian landmass?

5- Why would indian empire join the global emperial order instead of becoming a solid pillar of asian order?

6- How CPEC is a vital artefact into the grand asian architecture?

7- How does Kashmir becomes critical for both global empire and the emerging / consolidating eurasian axis?


Absolutely


Thanks for your post in my thread, but i would not like to answer this as it would derail the discussion and take us somewhere else. Please try to follow the thought process in the manner requested in my post above as it would really help not only everyone, but our own selves in structuring our thoughts on this topic properly.

Mam you have asked questions on which books can be written...we need to worry abt SA rather than EU... and on the terms of competitivenesss and productivity....global relationship is not based on emotion of a common man rather it is on the welfare of the common man.... it is of great understanding and study....

As of now pakistan ppl should know where they want to interact.....and most important there is nothing like free in atleast in nationalistic affairs.....

 

[Ahmad Masood]

We dont allow UN observers ; OIC observers and Amnesty International

what makes you think that we will ALLOW UN soldiers on our territory

If Pakistan is involved in Kashmir uprising, I think its a good idea to let UN see itself. Doesn't it make some sense?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Sinopakfriend I assume you want my comments on the quote below.

What are your views on presence of such a UN peace-keeping force in Kashmir and it's impact on Pakistan, China and Russia's security ?

The best and only possible outcome for Pakistan is independant Kashmir. If I was asked I would hand over AK to the UN as long as India also hands over IOK to UN. The understanding being that Kashmir would first be integrated and then become independant. The reasons are as follows.

1. The geography of Kashmir opens into Pakistan. Therefore Pakistan would end up having overwhelming influence on Kashmir. Even if the Kashmior state was difficult it would never pose a threat to Pakistan. It simply would be too small.

2. Such a independant Kashmir would very soon come under Chinese economic and geostrategic influence for the simple fact that China would offer everything to the new state. Being right next door to China would be boom for Kashmir. No other country could dislodge Chinese influence on this new state simply because of the geostrategic location and Chinese economic power.

It would be win-win for China and Pakistan. With China being a permanent member of UN security council it would make sure that the UN force does not create a situation inimical to China/Pakistan.