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So, is new media only reinforcing old stereotypes?


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And there shall be always a fundemental disagreement.

That is fine - I did not rename the thread Pro-Freedom Insurgents vs Occupying Indian Army after all.

Whether you like it or not, the insurgents are fighting for an end to Indian rule. The title is apt.
 
Yet I have not seen you condemn Indira Gandhi and India for supporting violent rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan.

Once Indians themselves stop being hypocritical about 'good terrorists and bad terrorists' they might get more support for their position.

The eastern front has been clamped down on for over a decade now. That is why the violent insurgency in J&K and cross-LoC infiltration remain at historically low levels.

I do not understand how can you call it hypocracy,

Indira gandhi clamped down the same people who had guns and terrorised entire punjab and who had killed many innocent civilans and punjab was turning into a lawless state where too you had tried to interfere. And india directly interfered in bangladesh with its army, its support and arms training for mukti bani started only months before the actual assault by the indian army when there where already atrocities going on. And its a one strong blow india made against lawless agents. India did nurture them to grow into a monster. We never continued our support to any organisation who have turned into a lawless entity like taliban in afghanistan.

So you viewing your policy and our policy through the same lens is not right is wot i believe.
 
Common criminals/smugglers would not be crossing over the heavily militarized LoC, and therefore the reasonable suspicion is that they were insurgents. Smugglers could be an option, but unlikely given the major markets are across the IB (where smuggling is well documented) and that some contraband shoudl have been found with them.

If they had assault weapons and what not, suspicion falls on them being insurgents, but identifying them as insurgents from a particular group is not a reasonable assumption.

However, smuggling rackets (alcohol etc.) across the IB are widely documented.

They are all logical deductions based on snippets of information and one could build a few that can show with reasonable confidence that the folks belonged to a group which is highly active in the region.

My point is that you have rejected a supposition and replaced it with another. Neither is backed with proof.. So if 1st is not good as a title, niether is second. However to my earlier question, do all posts quoting a headline go thru this test??


If taking refuge in a hotel/house to hide from SF's, then part of a guerrila war I'd say. If deliberately taking hostages as human shields or to kill, then a terrorist I suppose.

Attacking infrastructure, not civilians.

Were there security forces present there? How does a US drone attack on a house where suspected Taliban and civilians both live, as well as civilians in surrounding houses, come across? Terrorist attack since civilian deaths were known and taken as acceptable?

So terrorist in first case,

In case of railway track, how would they ensure that the civilian train does not meet with an accident or worse is not blown off?? Convinient logic?? May be TTP is also blowing off buildings and the people who get killed are just Collateral damage .. eh?

On 3rd part, if the civilian deaths were expected to begin with, then Yes... Just like the grenade attacks...??

They belong to groups whose leadership has openly come out in support of terrorist attacks and proudly claimed them when they occur. No possibility of being anything but terrorists, since the above mentioned groups are the only ones fighting the PA in those regions.

How do you ascertain they belong to those groups?? Do they carry Id cards?? Or are you saying there is no human being present in that area who is not fighting PA?
 
Yet I have not seen you condemn Indira Gandhi and India for supporting violent rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan.

Y should w condemn Indira in the first place..She intervened only because the weak Indian economy at the time could not afford the millions of bengalis who were pouring in as refugees.Does the same thing happen in Kashmir.??
The only refugees i see are the 4 million Kashmiri hindu Pandits.
What have u got for them..?

@Agno:
U said that the BLA can be called terrorists becausr they kill civilians...
From their point and my point they r just killing the Punjabi occupiers who have come to strip their lands of their resources..

nad also can i provide proof of terrorists killing innocent Kasmiris..? will u accept them..?


 
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Actually the Jihadi monster has a lot more to do with the Western Front, the Soviet invasion and Afghan Jihad, and Pakistan's subsequent Afghan policies, not Kashmir.

You are correct though that India has painted the Kashmiri freedom struggle in a Jihadi light to gain leverage to continue its occupation and not resolve the dispute.

Again we see an attempt to contextualize jihadi violence. Is it really that illogical to claim that jihadi sentiment and ideology can flow freely all across Pakistan irrespective of Eastern or Western fronts or even national boundaries? Pakistan can protest the allegations it has actively promoted such malfeasance . However, there are very few nations that have fared as badly as Pakistan has when it comes to defeating violent jihadi ideology. We are talking about basket cases such as Somalia here. The only reason of this failure is... you guessed it. Contextualization of jihadi violence.

Your declaration of Kashmiri violence as a "freedom struggle" is a
Pakistani point of view. Pakistan should be willing to wage a declared and legal war against Indian control of Kashmir, if it feels that India has illegally occupied it's territory. Another option is to have the UN pass a resolution that what happened in Kashmir was a "legitimate freedom struggle" and rally world opinion around to your point of view. Self-righteous indignation isn't going to cut it. It just makes Pakistan look helpless.
 
Wat is the use of RAW wen these terrorists are roaming freely in Pakistan..?

MOSSAD pls help these ppl...
 
Y should w condemn Indira in the first place..She intervened only because the weak Indian economy at the time could not afford the millions of bengalis who were pouring in as refugees.Does the same thing happen in Kashmir.??
The only refugees i see are the 4 million Kashmiri hindu Pandits.
What have u got for them..?

@Agno:
U said that the BLA can be called terrorists becausr they kill civilians...
From their point and my point they r just killing the Punjabi occupiers who have come to strip their lands of their resources..

nad also can i provide proof of terrorists killing innocent Kasmiris..? will u accept them..?

YouTube - Nandimarg Massacre : Killing of 23 Kashmiri Hindus by Islamic Terrorists in Kashmir

YouTube - killing kafir kashmiri pandits pt2
YouTube - kill the pandits And the world shall remained silent Part 2 on Kashmiri Pandits

OK enough with your party here. I can't allow anyone posting BS about Pakistan and martyrs of Kashmir on a Pakistani forum.

Y should w condemn Indira in the first place..She intervened only because the weak Indian economy at the time could not afford the millions of bengalis who were pouring in as refugees.Does the same thing happen in Kashmir.??

Thanks for not condemning Indra and for giving us the license to support every single insurgency in your country. Remember 1971 has given us the right to do everything including supporting rebels and insurgents in your country. I wanted the same from you. Now don't cry about cross border infiltration. Got it kid!

U said that the BLA can be called terrorists becausr they kill civilians...
From their point and my point they r just killing the Punjabi occupiers who have come to strip their lands of their resources..

Who cares about BLA terrorists or you. And if you are very willing to bring this irrelevant Baluch issue in this thread. Why should we talk only about Kashmir freedom movement. Let's talk about everything from maoists to nagas. From ULFA to Khalistanis. From Mezoram to Chattisgarh. We were talking about IOK because it is an occupied territory and not an Indian territory. But sincw you keep bringing Pakistan's internal issues between the discussion then we can talk about Indian internal issues also. :bunny:

And keep those pathetic videos to yourself, because they don't change the fact that Indian Occupied Kashmir is the occupied territory.

:disagree:
 
Yet I have not seen you condemn Indira Gandhi and India for supporting violent rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan.

Once Indians themselves stop being hypocritical about 'good terrorists and bad terrorists' they might get more support for their position.

I would have condemned Indira Gandhi for not intervening in Bangladesh much earlier, which could have saved countless Bangladeshi lives, but I am told that it was IA's decision.
 
Well not only evidence but there are millions of eye witnesses (Kashmiri Pandits) sitting in Jammu camps. But do you considering deaths of innocent civilians as a act of terrorism even if they are non-muslims.

This is an absurd argument that Kashmiri terrorists are freedom fighters as they are not killing civilians. The demography of the entir valley has been permanently altered because of their acts.

In case you do not accept infidels as innocent civilians - there is the case of father of our civil services topper. He has been killed by the same breed of "Freedom Fighters" and his family is saying on live media without being prompted.
 
OK enough with your party here. I can't allow anyone posting BS about Pakistan and martyrs of Kashmir on a Pakistani forum.

Ur forum..ur rules...I can understand:azn:..but that doesnt change the truth

Thanks for not condemning Indra and for giving us the license to support every single insurgency in your country. Remember 1971 has given us the right to do everything including supporting rebels and insurgents in your country. I wanted the same from you. Now don't cry about cross border infiltration. Got it kid!

Yeak kid....Similarly dont cry of Indian/RAW intervention incase of any bomb blast in ur cities or the undies of any pakistani have been stolen. !!


Who cares about BLA terrorists or you. And if you are very willing to bring this irrelevant Baluch issue in this thread. Why should we talk only about Kashmir freedom movement. Let's talk about everything from maoists to nagas. From ULFA to Khalistanis. From Mezoram to Chattisgarh. We were talking about IOK because it is an occupied territory and not an Indian territory. But sincw you keep bringing Pakistan's internal issues between the discussion then we can talk about Indian internal issues also. :bunny:

yeah bring it on...waiting for u....Similarly who cares abt Kashmiri terrorists or ur opinion.??

And keep those pathetic videos to yourself, because they don't change the fact that Indian Occupied Kashmir is the occupied territory.

I ve asked this question a million times..but no answer or a defelction..

WHO IS A KASHMIRI..?


According to me not only are the valley ppl counted as Kashmiris..but also the 4 million Displaced Pandits,the brave Ruksana begums,the Kashmiri muslim jawans in IA who are fighting to get rid off the terrorists from the valley.

And wen a person with a mentality like u who could see only a muslim killed but can conviniently shrugg off the fact that thousands of Hindu pandits were massacred by these terrorists...My god wat can i argue with u..?:hitwall:
 
Well.. You may call IA as Occupying army and the terrorists in Kashmir as Freedom fighter, but that really doesnt change a thing..The tide seems to be turning in the valley.. The total number of fatalities have decreased by a factor of 10 in last 10 years. A few more years, and this too (whether freedom struggle or cross border terrorism) will be confined to the history books like the Khalistan movement..

Anyway.. till the next encounter....
 
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Why should we celebrate their achievements when they top Indian civil service ?? It means they or he or she wants to be an Indian and play a part in its bureaucratic establishment and doesn't support freedom of Kashmir from the occupiers, they become traitors, don't they ??
No they dont! You sir, are absolutely wrong. It takes real brains to achieve something of that caliber. Any idiot can pick up an AK-47 and given some instructions can try to wreck havoc. But to come up as an IAS topper needs brains, which sorry to say, is scant in some places.

So according to you its patriotic for any idiot (which most of them actually are) to pick up arms and kill than to work for the betterment of their people by taking advantage of a given situation? The doctor has just done that. So he is unpatriotic, eh? I would rater have Kashmir led by people of such caliber than ak-47 toting idiots!

Just because he got an opportunity from Indian institutions to showcase his brilliance, he is being branded as unpatriotic? Doesnt that show the decay that has set in the mindset? Just because most of the Kashmiris' achievements are due to Indian institutions, you people shun celebrating their achievements? Now isnt that being narrow minded and wallowing in hatred?

What kind of reality are you people living in? Really?
As said, from your POV, these are terrorist/militant scumbags, but for us, the IA, paramilitary forces, police and the Indian establishment making sure their occupation works, are what you just called the freedom fighters.
From a sane person's pov, those that disturb peace and install terror in the minds of the local population are called terrorists. Normal people dislike such kind and call them scumbags. They work with authorities to report the activities of such scumbags to help eliminate them. This is what is happening in Kashmir today. So, Pakistan's apparent policy of "moral" support is a just facade for territorial ambitions in the region.
Plus, whatever you want to think, keep thinking, it doesn't changes the reality that Kashmir is a disputed area and Pro-Pakistani slogans and flags are raised, not by dozens or few hundreds, but by hundred thousands and the IA and other security forces have been instrumental in having killed thousands, raped thousands.
Mark my words, no matter how hard Pakistan tries, its attempts to grab the territory will just fizzle out, just like your futile support for the Khalistani movement. Those so called slogans and support for Pakistan "shows" are few and far in between. The common Kashmiri is more concerned with the common welfare and what the Indian govt can provide. People have now realized the futility of the so called armed struggle, and are now working with the state government for a better future, the doctor's topping IAS being one prime example.
As to your claim of atrocities committed, yes, there were many, but not to the extent your media reported nor to the extend the Pakistani propaganda machine tried to paint for local consumption.
And yea, we are totally against killing of any civilians, be it a Kashmiri or a Indian citizen, as they are innocent, and innocents blood shed is a great barbarity.
Good that we, atleast, agree on this.
 
I would have condemned Indira Gandhi for not intervening in Bangladesh much earlier, which could have saved countless Bangladeshi lives, but I am told that it was IA's decision.

Ahh, see - another Indian making a distinction between 'good terrorists and bad terrorists', and supporting the GoI decision to be a terrorist sponsoring State.
 
They are all logical deductions based on snippets of information and one could build a few that can show with reasonable confidence that the folks belonged to a group which is highly active in the region.

My point is that you have rejected a supposition and replaced it with another. Neither is backed with proof.. So if 1st is not good as a title, niether is second. However to my earlier question, do all posts quoting a headline go thru this test??
There are multiple groups active in the region, to merely point to one particular group without any evidence smacks of a propaganda effort.

A broad conclusion that those killed are insurgents fighting Indian control, without any determination of which group, of J&K is the most logical and rational conclusion


As for 'all posts', I already explained that when this thread moved beyond the headline of the one incident the thread was initially based on, that headline became inappropriate - after all, the discussion over the original 'six LeT militants killed' is long over, with additional encounters being posted and discussed.

And yes, when other threads acquire such dimensions of moving beyond the original title, moderators often change the titles/merge threads etc.

In case of railway track, how would they ensure that the civilian train does not meet with an accident or worse is not blown off?? Convinient logic?? May be TTP is also blowing off buildings and the people who get killed are just Collateral damage .. eh?
In most wars, infrastructure, civilian or military, has been attacked - the US has did it in Afghanistan and Iraq - so why only hold the Kashmiri insurgents feet to the fire?

Recall what the Allies did to the city of Dresden in WWII, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki for that matter.

On 3rd part, if the civilian deaths were expected to begin with, then Yes... Just like the grenade attacks...??
In the Baitullah Mehsud killing, reports from US sources quoting US and Pakistani intelligence officials stated that the footage from the targeting UAV indicated his wife was present with other individuals (physician?). S-2 argued that 'associating with the enemy', or even being in their proximity, makes one the enemy, and that therefore the deliberate killing of these non-combatants is 'justified' in US eyes. Perhaps one should then hold the world's sole Super Power accountable before blaming Kashmiri insurgents.
How do you ascertain they belong to those groups?? Do they carry Id cards?? Or are you saying there is no human being present in that area who is not fighting PA?
No other groups have indicated any interest in fighting the Pakistani State in those regions, so yes, it can be claimed with reasonable certainty that those fighting the PA and attacking civilians and non-civilians belong to the aforementioned groups. Also, the fact that in most tribal agencies the PA has evacuated the locals means most of those remaining are terrorists fighting the State.
 
I do not understand how can you call it hypocracy,

Indira gandhi clamped down the same people who had guns and terrorised entire punjab and who had killed many innocent civilans and punjab was turning into a lawless state where too you had tried to interfere. And india directly interfered in bangladesh with its army, its support and arms training for mukti bani started only months before the actual assault by the indian army when there where already atrocities going on. And its a one strong blow india made against lawless agents. India did nurture them to grow into a monster. We never continued our support to any organisation who have turned into a lawless entity like taliban in afghanistan.

So you viewing your policy and our policy through the same lens is not right is wot i believe.

Y should w condemn Indira in the first place..She intervened only because the weak Indian economy at the time could not afford the millions of bengalis who were pouring in as refugees.Does the same thing happen in Kashmir.??
The only refugees i see are the 4 million Kashmiri hindu Pandits.
What have u got for them..?

Indian support for the East Pakistani terrorists/rebels, both before and after Op. Searchlight, and the fallacy of the argument of 'millions of refugees' has been discussed elsewhere, so I won't take this thread in that direction, but even accepting your arguments, the fact is that they amount to mere excuses, such as those by Pakistanis, that the IA is responsible for the torture, rape and massacres of tens of thousands of Kashmiris - atrocities confirmed by Amnesty International and HRW. Pakistanis would argue that the unjust occupation and subjugation of millions of Kashmiris by India deserves support, and the struggle of Kashmiris is similar to the struggle by Indians and the Americans from British rule.

So at the end of the day, you can dig up whatever excuses you want, but the fact is that India supported rebels (that committed atrocities against civilians) and undermined the rule of a sovereign nation - that is support for terrorism, as was India's support for the LTTE. But while many Indians have accepted that their nation was wrong in supporting the LTTE, they continue to make the 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction in East Pakistan vs Kashmir - this is completely hypocritical and should change if Indians are really sincere about 'peace' and 'dialog not insurgency in Kashmir'.
@Agno:
U said that the BLA can be called terrorists becausr they kill civilians...
From their point and my point they r just killing the Punjabi occupiers who have come to strip their lands of their resources..
A civilian non-Baluch who teaches in a school or college, educating Baluch youth (amongst others) to have a better future is not a 'usurper' or 'occupier'. A non-Baluch who is a laborer doing really nasty work in poor conditions in a mine is not a 'usurper' or 'occupier'. Baluchistan is part of Pakistan, and when the rulers of the Princely States, and people of other territories comprising the modern province of Baluchistan, and people of all other provinces, chose to join Pakistan they accepted that there would be free movement of all Pakistanis across Pakistan. That is why Karachi is such an ethnically diverse city.
nad also can i provide proof of terrorists killing innocent Kasmiris..? will u accept them..?
Sure, as there is evidence from AI, HRW and others about atrocities committed by the IA, but the leadership of most Kashmir groups, and the IA, has condemned such incidents and does not advocate it as SOP, do they?
 

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