Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[yashchauhan]

yashchauhan, are you also a member of Skyscraperscity ?

yes..I am..........

 

[afriend]

@AM. end of the day.. you can compare in whatever way your support for terrorists and indian hand in bangaldesh indpendence and curbing punjab militancy... but the comparission is institutionally flawed given the ground realties of these terrorist groups running havoc across the world. We have a independent and peaceful bangladesh and we have a wonderful punjab. What you have ???an unstable afghanistan and a much greater menace the taliban and alqadia. So wotever justificaiton you give for your support, it has been proved flawed one time and its not long it will proved flawed again.

 

[KS]

Indian support for the East Pakistani terrorists/rebels, both before and after Op. Searchlight, and the fallacy of the argument of 'millions of refugees' has been discussed elsewhere, so I won't take this thread in that direction, but even accepting your arguments, the fact is that they amount to mere excuses, such as those by Pakistanis, that the IA is responsible for the torture, rape and massacres of tens of thousands of Kashmiris - atrocities confirmed by Amnesty International and HRW. Pakistanis would argue that the unjust occupation and subjugation of millions of Kashmiris by India deserves support, and the struggle of Kashmiris is similar to the struggle by Indians and the Americans from British rule.

U may use many sugar coated words to describe the terrorism in Kashmir But in reality u dont have millions of refugees flooding Pakistan and underminig ur country's economy..So the argument doesnt stand.

So at the end of the day, you can dig up whatever excuses you want, but the fact is that India supported rebels (that committed atrocities against civilians) and undermined the rule of a sovereign nation - that is support for terrorism, as was India's support for the LTTE. But while many Indians have accepted that their nation was wrong in supporting the LTTE, they continue to make the 'good terrorist vs bad terrorist' distinction in East Pakistan vs Kashmir - this is completely hypocritical and should change if Indians are really sincere about 'peace' and 'dialog not insurgency in Kashmir'.

Nice try in deflecting the argument using LTTE..But it is b/n India and Srilanka and doesnt concern ur country a bit..So please stay off it.

A civilian non-Baluch who teaches in a school or college, educating Baluch youth (amongst others) to have a better future is not a 'usurper' or 'occupier'. A non-Baluch who is a laborer doing really nasty work in poor conditions in a mine is not a 'usurper' or 'occupier'. Baluchistan is part of Pakistan, and when the rulers of the Princely States, and people of other territories comprising the modern province of Baluchistan, and people of all other provinces, chose to join Pakistan they accepted that there would be free movement of all Pakistanis across Pakistan. That is why Karachi is such an ethnically diverse city.

IF u can so eloquently post..wat do u think abt the millions of Hindu pandits who became the victims of Terrorism and are living as refugees in their own land..?
Do u honestly believe that only the IA is killing innocents(unless innocent in ur definition is a AK toting Kashmiri) and the terrorists are saints..?
Shall i provide u the links of massacres done by the Terrorists..?

Sure, as there is evidence from AI, HRW and others about atrocities committed by the IA, but the leadership of most Kashmir groups, and the IA, has condemned such incidents and does not advocate it as SOP, do they?

and sir ur point is..??

 

[TheBraveHeart]

@ Agno,
The title of the thread is extremely deceiving, not only is the freedom fighters part flawed and my Indian friends have been trying hard to explain it to u(so I wont take efforts trying to put forward my views) but also the other part saying Indian army only, coz most of the operations in J&K, involve the local police and their own special forces, who have shown their worth by giving supreme sacrifices, a recent example was mentioned in my last post that u deleted where a police man was injured.
The IA does tend to take a backseat these days and has been allowing the local police to control and undertake operations if u carefully read in between the lines of the news reports. There are many reasons why it is done, like, it takes the attention away from IA if an innocent/local militant is killed and also the police have better geographical understandings in such situations which is very important in guerrilla warfare.
So calling it the battle of IA alone is totally unfair, unjust and wrong; it has to be The Indian security forces.

 

[Dr.Evil]

Mod team seems to be particularly intent on seeing terrorists as freedom fighters, Its their call and their website, Call them whatever you like but we will call all the people who fight against India as terrorists.

GOI is doing a decent job of cleaning the cancer from striking more.

"Freedom fighter" Ajmal Kasab is being sent to the gallows, that's a great step by the courts in India.

Death to all who fight against India.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Mod team seems to be particularly intent on seeing terrorists as freedom fighters, Its their call and their website, Call them whatever you like but we will call all the people who fight against India as terrorists.

GOI is doing a decent job of cleaning the cancer from striking more.

"Freedom fighter" Ajmal Kasab is being sent to the gallows, that's a great step by the courts in India.

Death to all who fight against India.

Get it clarified up there, we as Pakistanis call the people fighting Indian occupation in Kashmir as Freedom Fighters. People who are fighting the occupying Indian security forces and establishment.

Freedom Fighters within the context of Kashmir, not rest of India.

In all of the threads, Pakistani members have termed Kasab or anyone else who kills innocents be it a Kashmiri or an Indian, as killers who are doing such things for some other purpose.

Hope this is more then enough to clarify the differentiation between freedom fighters and other scumbags who kill for some other purpose.

 

[Prometheus]

Get it clarified up there, we as Pakistanis call the people fighting Indian occupation in Kashmir as Freedom Fighters. People who are fighting the occupying Indian security forces and establishment.

Freedom Fighters within the context of Kashmir, not rest of India.

In all of the threads, Pakistani members have termed Kasab or anyone else who kills innocents be it a Kashmiri or an Indian, as killers who are doing such things for some other purpose.

Hope this is more then enough to clarify the differentiation between freedom fighters and other scumbags who kill for some other purpose.

thats what I was looking for.

Now I can call them terrorists , scumbags etc etc.........specially those who killed Police man in Punjab.

What kind of freedom fighters are these who fight only near borders , LOC and in valley and only are from a particular religion..............and they targeting another religion which forced around half a million flew valley.......freedom fighters

 

[Raghu]

Pro Freedom Insurgents vs Indian Army

To justify one lie, hundreds of lies are being told here.

 

[karan.1970]

Ahh, see - another Indian making a distinction between 'good terrorists and bad terrorists', and supporting the GoI decision to be a terrorist sponsoring State.

Just curious...Was Mukti Bahini ever designated as a terrorist organization by UN?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Just curious...Was Mukti Bahini ever designated as a terrorist organization by UN?

If India had not attacked, there would not have been any need, as Mukhti bani would have been finished, or who knows it may have been designated one.

But as India attacked, it couldn't go to UN.

 

[karan.1970]

There are multiple groups active in the region, to merely point to one particular group without any evidence smacks of a propaganda effort.

A broad conclusion that those killed are insurgents fighting Indian control, without any determination of which group, of J&K is the most logical and rational conclusion

Wont the army fighting those groups more capable of making that deduction based on their modus operendi and tactics, rather than a bunch of us using newspaper articles and media reports.. ?? I dont see denials coming out of LeT whenever there are claims of their cadre being killed in the J&K region. Isnt that an equally strong supposition that a group so well entrenched in Pakiatan with support from JuD whose leaders can hold anti India rallies at will, can send out denials if their name is misused in an encounter. After all they have been known to deny other incidents where their role was suspected...

As for 'all posts', I already explained that when this thread moved beyond the headline of the one incident the thread was initially based on, that headline became inappropriate - after all, the discussion over the original 'six LeT militants killed' is long over, with additional encounters being posted and discussed.

And yes, when other threads acquire such dimensions of moving beyond the original title, moderators often change the titles/merge threads etc.

C'mon Agno.. We are all adults here.. The intent of title change is pretty obvious.. But I will take your advice on this.. Will create separate threads for such encounters going forward. Will appreciate those not getting merged with this thread as long as the title of the thread remains this..Will I get that much freedom on this forum??

In most wars, infrastructure, civilian or military, has been attacked - the US has did it in Afghanistan and Iraq - so why only hold the Kashmiri insurgents feet to the fire?

Recall what the Allies did to the city of Dresden in WWII, or Hiroshima and Nagasaki for that matter.

Why do you hold TTP's feet to fire then? They are also attacking the Pakistani state and the citizens getting killed are incidental. The disputed status of Kashmir has no standing here since that status is between Pakistan and India and has no provision for armed attacks by terrorists or any other militants..

Please understand that rules of war only apply between nations at war. Terrorists (In J&K or in NWFP) do not get POW status by the Geneva convention if captured. The whole flawed concept of equating these terrorists with an army is a self serving arguement that does not stand on its feet.

In the Baitullah Mehsud killing, reports from US sources quoting US and Pakistani intelligence officials stated that the footage from the targeting UAV indicated his wife was present with other individuals (physician?). S-2 argued that 'associating with the enemy', or even being in their proximity, makes one the enemy, and that therefore the deliberate killing of these non-combatants is 'justified' in US eyes. Perhaps one should then hold the world's sole Super Power accountable before blaming Kashmiri insurgents.

As I said earlier, if the innocent civilians (not designated as enemy combatants) were expected to die then this is a terror strike as USA and Pakistan are not at war at this time. About accountability, please go ahead and hold USA accountable. It was your country they attacked and your civilians they killed. Or go and hold your govt accountable if this act was with their consent.

About associating with the enemy, are you then argueing that Kasmiri civilians using the infrastructure of J&K state or sharing a road with security forces are considered enemy personnel by these terrorists??

Arent these terrorists supposedly fighting for the freedom of these civilians only?? Or do these terrorists also subscribe to "with us or against us" doctrine??

No other groups have indicated any interest in fighting the Pakistani State in those regions, so yes, it can be claimed with reasonable certainty that those fighting the PA and attacking civilians and non-civilians belong to the aforementioned groups. Also, the fact that in most tribal agencies the PA has evacuated the locals means most of those remaining are terrorists fighting the State.

Its a fairly naive logic to argue that all groups who want to fight PA will first declare their interest and intentions before starting the fight...How do you know these are not Afghan Taliban helping out their bretheren. Or may be some of your own citizens who are just pi ssed at PA for displacing them. After all the Pashtuns who live there are fierce fighters and have gone to wars for much less...

 

[karan.1970]

If India had not attacked, there would not have been any need, as Mukhti bani would have been finished, or who knows it may have been designated one.

But as India attacked, it couldn't go to UN.

If my aunt had a mush, she would be my uncle..
C'mon TK, Hypotheticals dont cut it... You cant blame India for supporting terrorists if they were not declared as such.

And No one considers a country attacking another as a terror strike..

 

[TaimiKhan]

If my aunt had a mush, she would be my uncle..
C'mon TK, Hypotheticals dont cut it... You cant blame India for supporting terrorists if they were not declared as such.

And No one considers a country attacking another as a terror strike..

For us, they were terrorists and India supported them as freedom fighters.

For you Kashmiri freedom fighters are terrorists but for us they are freedom fighters.

And as for UN, well let them declare whomever they want whatever they want. That does not changes the facts on ground.

We all know what is the worth of UN and what it can do.

The powers sitting in that UN use it for their own purpose.

Simple fact is, you call whatever you call kashmiri freedom fighters, we damn care, we will and should support them in fighting the Indian occupiers and yeah if they do kill innocents, it is their own doing, for which they will be responsible, but as long as they are killing the Indian occupying force, we are with them.

UN was unable to help us in 71, so they shouldn't poke their nose in what we do, so let them declare whatever they want, facts are something else.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

Indian army is doing a great job in Kashmir by killing these terrorists.....Go Indian army...

 

[karan.1970]

For us, they were terrorists and India supported them as freedom fighters.

For you Kashmiri freedom fighters are terrorists but for us they are freedom fighters.

And as for UN, well let them declare whomever they want whatever they want. That does not changes the facts on ground.

We all know what is the worth of UN and what it can do.

The powers sitting in that UN use it for their own purpose.

Simple fact is, you call whatever you call kashmiri freedom fighters, we damn care, we will and should support them in fighting the Indian occupiers and yeah if they do kill innocents, it is their own doing, for which they will be responsible, but as long as they are killing the Indian occupying force, we are with them.

UN was unable to help us in 71, so they shouldn't poke their nose in what we do, so let them declare whatever they want, facts are something else.

For a change I dont disagree with your post.. And this discussion is not about if Pakistan supports Terrorism in Kashmir. We all know it does..

The discussion was about a title change and if the new title is any more accurate than the older one.


btw, do remember your perception of the worth of UN next time you talk about the UN resolution on Kashmir and the UN designation of Kashmir as a disputed area...