Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[deckingraj]

It wont be a good starting point because a separatist win in elections does nothing to advance the demand for a plebiscite, unless India accepts in principle that it will trigger a UN supervised referendum if the separatists win.

Why shall we give any such promises...When india stand is that kashmir is an integral part of India then this condition for separatist to hold election holds little ground....Secondly separatist win would rest all the claims of GOI that Kashmiri's want to be with India

The GoI and most Indians realize that if given the choice Kashmiris will not choose India, that is why they refuse to hold a UN monitored plebiscite.

well that can be your POV however we don't believe that...There are multiple reasons for not going into plebisite and PAK is equally responsible party in that...(i know you have different views)

So to argue that the separatists need to win an election to somehow 'show Indians' something is a canard. If you don't believe that the Kashmiris don't harbor separatist sentiment then why is India resisting a simple resolution to such a long festering international dispute and insurgency?

As said there are multiple reasons...Not going into that mode let me ask you if separatist stand in election and win by majority don't you think that is a clear indicator for GOI than people mean business here??? That's the beauty of Democracy...separatists should fight elections on one point agenda - Kashmir Independence or merger with Pakistan or whatever they want....People will let them know what they want...What else can be a bigger proof than this??? This will put all the claims of GOI reluctance for plebisite due to reason A or B and can be used as a tool in UN to put pressure on India....

 

[DavyJones]

do kashmiris like u hindu indians ??
Hindu Indians - 130 millions Muslim indians, 20 million christians, 20 million Sikhs will take offence!
Kashmiris in Indian Army - Lots - JAKRIF, JAKLI, Ladakh Scouts come to mind!

 

[Hulk]

It wont be a good starting point because a separatist win in elections does nothing to advance the demand for a plebiscite, unless India accepts in principle that it will trigger a UN supervised referendum if the separatists win.

The GoI and most Indians realize that if given the choice Kashmiris will not choose India, that is why they refuse to hold a UN monitored plebiscite. So to argue that the separatists need to win an election to somehow 'show Indians' something is a canard. If you don't believe that the Kashmiris don't harbor separatist sentiment then why is India resisting a simple resolution to such a long festering international dispute and insurgency?

Even if GOI does not promise, do you know the impact of even 10 MLA's shouting on top of voice for Azadi.

If Hurriyat is not winning elections there is no way to find they have mass support. Rallies are not the answer.

 

[SSG VIPER]

do kashmiris like u hindu indians ??
Hindu Indians - 130 millions Muslim indians, 20 million christians, 20 million Sikhs will take offence!
Kashmiris in Indian Army - Lots - JAKRIF, JAKLI, Ladakh Scouts come to mind!

Im talking about MUSLIM KASHMIRIS not indian muslims hell from my side kell em like u did in gujrat
NO OFFENCE TO INDIAN MUSLIMS i was just giving an examples as for KASHMIRIS hope u know WAT THE WORLD AND UNO THINKS ABOUT THEM AND THE STATUS DISPUTED not INDIAN so accept the WORLD decision and go for a REFRENDUM U WILL INSHALLAH FIND OUT UR WORTHPlus u didnt ANWER MY HONEST QUESTIONS DID THE CAT GOT UR TONGUE??
FREE KASHMIR
GREATER PAKISTAN

 

[SSG VIPER]

DUDE u guys dont respect UN and give them a right.Rest ur usual ranting sorry to say its called BULLSHIT
FREE KASHMIR
GREATER PAKISTAN

 

[Iggy]

do kashmiris like u hindu indians ??

You can ask do Kashmiri like Indians?all Indians are not Hindus..well for your answer its depend up on person to person..you can see a lot of marathis dont like UP people

How many kashmiris are in ur army???

Large number of youths turn up for army recruitment- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

Why anti indi protests??

Because they can protest to some one who they can complaint with out any fear..who will hear your plea..see the recent double standards of separatists leaders over the killing of a girl by terrorists..why do you think they were all silent??it means they know if they say some thing about them they wont be alive to see another day..

Why pro PAKISTAN RALLIES???

if you mentioning about a rally Kashmiries holding green flag then sorry buddy all green flags are not Pakistans flag

Why u have more then half a million troops in kashmir???

its because to counter your country's so called non state actors who recruiting people in the name of religion to blow up people and create anarchy in Kashmir

 

[deckingraj]

You touch on the point I am making, though you draw somewhat different conclusions from it.

Glad we converse somewhere...

After 60 years of no progress, with India showing no sign of movement towards self-determination, the average kashmiri would vote on local issues of jobs, development etc, and not on a single separatist agenda. For the average kashmiri, how would voting in separatists change anything given India's blatant refusal to implement its promise of self-determination?

Hang on...Who are separatist?? They are kashmiri's for the betterment of Kashmir right??? If an average kashmiri can vote for NCP or PDP for their local issues of Jobs, development etc than they would be more than willing to vote for separatists for the same...Secondly what is more important for Kashmir?? Economic growth or fight for freedom(which is debatable but using the word for us to not loose focus)???....Why can't separatist do both parallel??

Only a referendum on choosing between India and Pakistan can resolve that issue, and Indian fears of where Kashmiri loyalties lie is precisely why India continues to refuse to allow self-determination. If you have so much faith in kashmiri loyalty to India, then why is the easiest means to resolving this international dispute and normalizing and dramatically changing the landscape of South Asia not being implemented?

Let me spin your question to you...If GOP is so confident that Kashmiri's are so hell bent on Joining Pakistan or for that matter Independent Kashmir but to stay with India why don't you pull out your troops from Kashmir and tell UN we have done our part now ask them to do theirs??? Or are you saying that GOP has nothing to do as per UN resolution and its only GOI who is at fault??

The fact of the matter is that both countries don't want Kashmir to go to either one...NO MATTER WHAT...There is no other reason for GOP to give away land to China(something that don't belong to her - Since refrendum has not yet happen)....Average Kashmiri's have realised the fact..its better if other's follow the line...


Lets change our roles for sometime....I would like to hear from you what you think are the faults of GOP(if any) when it comes to resolution of Kashmir??

 

[SSG VIPER]

You can ask do Kashmiri like Indians?all Indians are not Hindus..well for your answer its depend up on person to person..you can see a lot of marathis dont like UP people



Large number of youths turn up for army recruitment- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times



Because they can protest to some one who they can complaint with out any fear..who will hear your plea..see the recent double standards of separatists leaders over the killing of a girl by terrorists..why do you think they were all silent??it means they know if they say some thing about them they wont be alive to see another day..



if you mentioning about a rally Kashmiries holding green flag then sorry buddy all green flags are not Pakistans flag




its because to counter your country's so called non state actors who recruiting people in the name of religion to blow up people and create anarchy in Kashmir

Dude its still not my answer
This report u labelled is by india not neutral the same media where u showed false reports of elections in kashmir so ur ols ranting about kashmiris in IA is false and about LADAKH SCOUTS dude get a life its paramilityary and has hindu dogras pundits andothers in it so dont make a FOOL out of urself.
About marathis and ups they hate each other coz of provincial difference not BECAUSE THEY WANT FREEDOM AND THE WORLD SUPPORTS THEM LIKE IN KASHMIR???? So dont compare kashmir with UP or CP HOPE U UNDERSTAND????
About indian hindus i meant YOU GUYS???? And i wasnt pointing out that every indian is hindu?
ABOUT GREEN FLAGS SEE THIS PAL

FREE KASHMIR
GREATER PAKISTAN

 

[UchihaCG]

They will decide joining any side or remain independent Only when India get out of their country which is occupied by India.


And no not irrespective of the credibility of the source because a weak source being quoted for Indian BS is not at all acceptable.

india get out?
Kashmir is rightfully a part of India. Pakistan was the one annexxing it with your stupid excuses "kashmiris are muslims and they want to be a part of Pakistan"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Accession_(Jammu_and_Kashmir)

if you are so sweet and would like Kashmiris having freedom, then why does your government oppress Kashmiri nationalists? Before pointing fingers at us, deal with Azad Kashmir.

 

[EjazR]

No, we would prefer that the Kashmiris exercise self-determination as promised them by the Indian leadership and the UNSC to determine their sentiments, a promise and right India continues to blatantly violate and deny.

Yes I guess eventually there has to be some sort of self-determination, but that is not possible until militants across the border continue to terroise and kill people who don't support a pro-pakistani point of view. The United "Jihad" Council in Muzaffarabad is still funcitoning and so are the associated groups with it. The people of Kashmir have rejected violence and its time for GoP to listen to the Kashmiris and shut them down.

A peaceful, free and fair atmosphere must be established on both sides of Kashmir. China should return to either Pakistan or India the areas of Kashmir is wrongly occupies and both Pakistan and India should engage the local Kashmiris to find the solution.

 

[Goodperson]

That the IA went in after the IoA was signed is disputed since certain events and the logistics required to accomplish the IA deployment do not support the Indian argument.

Secondly, there is doubt over the validity of the Instrument of Accession as well, since (last I checked) no one has seen the original.

Hmmm.... Copy was posted on official website it has been removed and not seen since 2005-06. Thats the reason why this question occurs.

Well Just give a thought why this question after 60 yrs ?

 

[Halaku Khan]

It wont be a good starting point because a separatist win in elections does nothing to advance the demand for a plebiscite, unless India accepts in principle that it will trigger a UN supervised referendum if the separatists win.

The GoI and most Indians realize that if given the choice Kashmiris will not choose India, that is why they refuse to hold a UN monitored plebiscite. So to argue that the separatists need to win an election to somehow 'show Indians' something is a canard. If you don't believe that the Kashmiris don't harbor separatist sentiment then why is India resisting a simple resolution to such a long festering international dispute and insurgency?

I'm sure there are some Kashmiris who do have separatist sentiment, but every opinion poll shows that most of them prefer staying with India to becoming part of Pakistan. India does not conduct a plebiscite in J&K for the same reason that Pakistan does not conduct a plebiscite in Balochistan. Don't say that J&K is "disputed territory" because the UN is not in the business of recognizing boundaries of nations, or of deeming territories to be disputed or non-disputed.

If the Hurriyat were to win elections, they would have a legitimate platform from which to discuss the full spectrum of issues, including the constitutional status of J&K. Right now it cannot be said that they represent anybody other than their paymasters in Pakistan.

 

[toxic_pus]

Like I said - just more gibberish on your part. How about you define 'artificially created seperatism' in the context of Kashmir, since so far you have merely been jumping around trying to obfuscate. My interpretation of your comments (and my opinion that they are irrational) has been made obvious in past posts.

You have interpreted my comments in a manner that would help you to argue ‘your’ points through. Although I have never questioned the popularity of separatist movement in Kashmir, your coming back to this question again and again, is intellectual dishonesty. That is precisely why instead of explaining, or so to say backing up your claim that 'artificially generated separatist sentiments' is same as 'lack of popular support for separatist sentiments' you have retorted with empty rhetoric. My first post should have made it aptly clear what I meant by ‘artificially created seperatism’. No point in repeating.

More nonsense and distortion of the issue - the fact that the UNSC resolutions call for negotiations on bilateral (not unilateral demilitarization) makes clear that Pakistan is a party to the dispute. The fact that Pakistan is one of the two choices the Kashmiris have to make in the referendum to be conducted in kashmir makes it more than clear that Pakistan has a claim and is a party to a dispute.

Absolute nonsense. Not to mention, another strawman.

Nobody denies Pakistan is not a party to the Kashmir dispute. But being a party to a dispute doesn’t imply ‘claim’, neither does it automatically generate a ‘claim’. Any Tom, Dick and Harry can be a ‘party’ to any dispute, just by being a ‘party’ to a litigation and thats exactly how Pakistan became a 'party'. Since Pakistan happens to be one of the two choices, it makes Pakistan a ‘party’ and just that. No more. Kashmiri’s right to choose Pakistan (or India), doesn’t give Pakistan any right to ‘claim’ Kashmir or any part of it, before the choice has been made in Pakistan’s favour. Just because I get to chose between numerous cigarette brands, it doesn’t mean that every single brand available in my city, can claim me as a user of their brand. That is patently absurd.

Neither does Pakistan have any legal document similar to Instrument of Accession to make a ‘claim’. Long story short – Pakistan doesn’t have any ‘claim’ on Kashmir although it is definitely a party to the Kashmir dispute.

Are you bonkers? If an interested party is not going to support an issue then who on earth is? Your arguments are absolute nonsense at this point. The territory is disputed, Pakistan is a party to the dispute and is supporting the entities in Kashmir that continue to demand their right to self-determination, as has been promised them by the UNSC, India and Pakistan.

This time around, you have simply redefined ‘interested party’, in spite of me clarifying what I mean by that term. The term ‘interested party’ has specific legal connotation but since you chose to completely ignore that – necessary for your arguments – I am guessing that trying it all over again would be an exercise in futility.

‘Support’ can take many forms. Support by means of directly financing a movement, makes the integrity of the movement a suspect, because then the so called movement would be maneuvered to cater to the specific interest of the paymaster. I understand that this concept is harder than rocket science. But then again subterfuge has its perks.

I am not the one complaining about Indian funding going into Kashmir and various Kashmiri politicians and entities being on the payroll of India.

You are not, because you can’t. If you could you would have. Remember that Christine Fair comment of ‘pumping money’?

Sure you do.

We backtracked on nothing - the UNSC resolutions were held up due to Indian obstinacy on refusing to agree to proposals by the UN rapporteur on Indian and Pakistani force levels. All withdrawals were contingent on negotiations between India, Pakistan and the UNSC appointed rapporteur/commission, as has been pointed out to you elsewhere.

What negotiations do you expect to make to withdraw all your ‘tribesmen and citizens’.

 

[toxic_pus]

The Simla agreement states the following:

(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organisation, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations.

Indian accounts of the invasion of Siachen indicate that the Indians were concerned over Pakistan granting permits to mountaineering expeditions, which in the Indian opinion went against their interpretation of Siachen as being on their side of the LoC. Those concerns should have been taken up through negotiations and dialog with Pakistan on the issue as prescribed by Simla - instead India chose to invade Siachen.

So yes, it was a violation of Simla.

That kind of argument flies both ways.

Why was Pakistan granting visas/permits without first verifying with India, what India’s interpretation of Siachen was, knowing pretty well that if India’s interpretation differed from theirs, India won’t be taking it charitably ? That Indian interpretation would be different was highly likely, given the vagueness of the demarcation at Siachen. That alone qualified as ‘organisation, assistance or encouragement’ of an act that was ‘detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations’, and hence an attempt to ‘unilaterally alter the situation’ of status quo, while determination of Siachen question remained ‘pending’.

So yes, if by your logic India 'violated' the Shimla agreement, then by the same logic, Pakistan violated it before India did.

Besides, India never ‘invaded’ Siachen. Siachen was always a part of India.

 

[ssheppard]

Separatists can’t hide their faces now: PC

Home Minister P Chidambaram Thursday strongly condemned the brutal killing of a 20-year-old girl by unidentified militants in Shopian and took on the separatists for their silence on the issue.

Speaking to a news channel, Chidambaram said, “I condemn the brutal killing of an innocent girl. This is bizarre, what does she have to do with militancy? They (militants) have no ethics.”

Unidentified gunmen had fired at Shiraza Akhtar, a resident of Keller village in Shopian district of Kashmir, from point blank range, killing her instantly. No organisation or individual has claimed responsibility for it till now.

Chidambaram said that this is not the first time the militants have carried out such a cowardly act as they have killed many innocents: Reshma Begum, Mohd Aslam Alam, Nagina, who where completely innocents.

Taking on the hardliner separatists for their apparent silence on the issue, Chidambaram said, “They are embarrassed, they don’t know where to hide their faces.”

He also pointed out that whenever there is even a hint of the involvement of security forces in any case, they (separatists) are up in arms, but now when an innocent is killed at the hands of militants, they are silent.

Demanding that Hurriyat take a position on this issue, Chidambaram said, “They should come with a united stand on these killings.”



Chidambaram added that the J&K police have been asked to leave no stone unturned to nab the people behind the brutal killing of Shiraza.

However, the Home Minister was quick to make it clear that by pointing out to the alleged human rights violations by security forces, he was not in any way trying to defend any wrongdoing.

Chidambaram was also confident regarding the process of dialogue with the separatists in Jammu and Kashmir.

On the massive protests by people against the CBI report on the alleged double rape & murder in Shopian, Chidambaram said, “How can someone who has nothing to do with investigation just stand and say I condemn the CBI report. This is bizarre you cannot win this argument… How can people inquire into a report?”

“An investigative agency can only probe it. Even I can't investigate. We must faith in CBI,” the minister added.

Shopian Killings : Separatists don?t know where to hide Face