Kargil war was a total disaster, claims Gen Majeed Malik

[Mav3rick]

In the event India is unable to retake Kargil, it means full scale war, which your military or civilian leadership did not foresee.

The Military and Civilian leadership made an utmost effort to ensure that the conflict remained confined to Kargil, besides the point of Kargil was to find a solution to Kashmir issue permanently and not really to initiate a war.

PAF didn't not have BVR at that time unlike IAF and Pakistani Navy was not ready for war.

Is that why IAF conducted 'surgical strikes' in Pakistan after 2001/02? Is that why your mighty SU-30MKI's always broke away when challenged by F-16's? And is that why IAF never dared to cross an inch of the border even during 1999, successfully that is?

The role of PN was changed to protect Karachi port from IN, it was turned from an offensive force to a defensive force and was ready to face any challenges.

Shariff saved Pakistan from potential defeat in full scale war.

To be honest, if India ever had the guts to initiate a full scale war, it would have done so. NS saved Indian shame by helping mask Indian military's humiliating thrashing at the hands of some fighters with diplomatic victory under pressure.

I can further prove my point with the intention displayed after the Mumbai attacks, India mobilized almost 8,00,000 troops and Air Force/Navy only to unilaterally & unconditionally withdraw after 6-8 months and in the process losing a few hundred soldiers! Even then, they never dared to cross an inch of the border.

Achieving stated objectives, which was retaking Kargil, was achieved.

But that was not done militarily and that's the point in discussion. Pakistani fighters were withdraw n by the civilian government of Pakistan and not repealed by Indian Military.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

The Military and Civilian leadership made an utmost effort to ensure that the conflict remained confined to Kargil, besides the point of Kargil was to find a solution to Kashmir issue permanently and not really to initiate a war.

Doubt that, how does attempting to take over one town and breaching Shimla agreement have any affect on solution to Kashmir issue permanently? no logic here?

Is that why IAF conducted 'surgical strikes' in Pakistan after 2001/02?

When did this happen? nothing that i recall.

Is that why your mighty SU-30MKI's always broke away when challenged by F-16's? And is that why IAF never dared to cross an inch of the border even during 1999, successfully that is?

Why is India supposed to use a multirole fighter for Kargil ?

The role of PN was changed to protect Karachi port from IN, it was turned from an offensive force to a defensive force and was ready to face any challenges.

We'd know if there was ever a war

To be honest, if India ever had the guts to initiate a full scale war, it would have done so. NS saved Indian shame by helping mask Indian military's humiliating thrashing at the hands of some fighters with diplomatic victory under pressure.

Your nation always thought so from 1948 to 1971, each time.

I can further prove my point with the intention displayed after the Mumbai attacks, India mobilized almost 8,00,000 troops and Air Force/Navy only to unilaterally & unconditionally withdraw after 6-8 months and in the process losing a few hundred soldiers! Even then, they never dared to cross an inch of the border.

Wonder which world you are living, show me one international reputed source stating that post Mumbai attacks, such large scale border deployments occurred.

But that was not done militarily and that's the point in discussion. Pakistani fighters were withdraw n by the civilian government of Pakistan and not repealed by Indian Military.

That makes it even more better for India.

 

[Mav3rick]

Despite all the above mentioned , your Govt refused to take their bodies.

That is your media's stand as asserted by your military, including some staged dramas by your military men that have been uncovered. There are bodies missing from WW1 and WW2, a missing body cannot be construed as PakMil's refusal to accept bodies of martyred soldiers.

Zaid-zombie delusions

Yeah, that refutes my post.

Peak 5353 was never held by India and it is surrounded on 3 sides by Indian held peak, hope it helps you sleep at night

Peak 5353 is the highest peak of the area and the most strategic, it is not surrounded by Indian held peaks but Indian held positions that can only be considered targets from peak 5353. Go read the article I provided.

The Rediff Interview/ General Ved Prakash Malik

The same can be said about Siachin pre-Indian capture, can it not?

sugar coated the little military gains and fairy tales of achievements have something tangible to back themselves, the fact Kargil is in India's hands.

I am not saying that the Indian Military did not fight with courage and patriotism, or that they could achieve nothing. However, consider the fact that Indian military during that conflict had 6-7 times numerical superiority as well as official logistics/supply lines and support of IAF, 10 squadrons of it! That is overwhelming power but despite that, the NLI fought valiantly and repulsed many Indian advances....they still hold 4-5 peaks along with the most important peak 5353 is proof enough.

Furthermore, you can only imagine what would have been the end result if Pakistani Civilian establishment had refused the American dictation and had officially supported the NLI with reinforcements/supplies and PAF. I mean imagine if Pakistan had escalated the conflict to match the Indian response.

Nawaz Sharif who saved Pakistan from a further humiliation. In the event hypothetically India is unable to take back the peaks. India will simply open another front and escalate to full scale war to nibble territory along the border , for which neither PAF or PN was prepared.

There is a world of proof how NS was forced to back down and how most of the casualties out of a total of under 500 casualties on Pakistani side were suffered under retreat. So it was India that NS saved from utter humiliation. Even more so, the lessons learnt from Kargil ensured that Indian Military could never dared cross an inch of border after Mumbai attacks. Not even an inch! All they could do was amass almost a million soldiers at our border and then send them back!

Delusions of epic proportions,

if you really think India will just settle Kashmir for magical loss of Kargil and Siachen, but then doesn't surprise me.
A military solution to Kashmir was not possible , is not possible, and given the current economic trend of India and Pakistan not possible in the future either.

And you continue to misunderstand. Kargil was initiated only to force India to negotiate a permanent solution to Kashmir and if need be, involve international community to force a settlement on Kashmir. It was never meant to initiate a war, but rather to ensure that we never had anything to go to war about again.....I wonder why that is so hard for you guys!

 

[Mav3rick]

Doubt that, how does attempting to take over one town and breaching Shimla agreement have any affect on solution to Kashmir issue permanently? no logic here?

You doubt it because you do not understand it. A conflict initiated in Kashmir, can be contained in Kashmir as it is a 'disputed' territory.

When did this happen? nothing that i recall.

Google is your friend......atleast for a couple of instances.

Why is India supposed to use a multirole fighter for Kargil ?

Different instances I had quoted in those 2-3 lines. As you may be aware that IAF did not have SU-30MKI's during the Kargil War, the instances of SU-30MKI's being engaged by F-16's and SU-30MKI's breaking off instead of engaging happened a lot later. Same with Mig 29's and Mirage 2k-5's.

P.S. By the way IAF can use any Jet it see's fit for the job, can it not? So why not in Kargil?

We'd know if there was ever a war

Yeah we would , I can even give your roles of our submarines......well, atleast 1 is assigned to the Indian Aircraft Carrier that may or may not be operational.

Your nation always thought so from 1948 to 1971, each time.

And we came out atleast on par in each war.....Let me tell you why you could never dare cross the border, its because unlike 1971 Pakistan was not at war with Pakistan itself to protect you!

Wonder which world you are living, show me one international reputed source stating that post Mumbai attacks, such large scale border deployments occurred.

Attacks on Parliament? The dates were correct, you could have checked what happened during that time.

P.S. The claims of precision strikes were made after the Mumbai attacks and not the parliament attacks I guess, would you dispute that? Any precision strike that took place???????

That makes it even more better for India.

That's a point that I would not disagree with. You did come out looking better but only due to your diplomatic efforts.

 

[MST]

And you continue to misunderstand. Kargil was initiated only to force India to negotiate a permanent solution to Kashmir and if need be, involve international community to force a settlement on Kashmir. It was never meant to initiate a war, but rather to ensure that we never had anything to go to war about again.....I wonder why that is so hard for you guys!

Now did you achieve any of the two objectives. Your Army started the incursion with those two objective in mind. Did you achieve any of the two objectives. Kashmir valley is at its most peaceful right now in last 20-25 years since militancy started. No country (those that matter) give a damn about Pakistan's position on Kashmir. Your best friend and soul mate China wants a staus Quo on the LOC. They even stopped the Stapled Visa they used to give Kashmiris. Even the remaining countries mostly Isamic Countries only give lip service to Pakistan's position. Nobody takes you seriously on Kashmir. As I stated earlier you lost all your credibility on Kashmir thanks to Kargil. Things will never be the same again. Now if this is not abject failure then what is.

IA objective were clear. Throw the intruduers back to LOC. And it achieved it. This is called success.

If it gives you some consolation occupying a post that was never occupied by IA good for you. Also remember thanks to Kargil your county lost India's trust and we will never leave Siachin. I guess jo hota hai acche ke liye he hota hai.

 

[MST]

You doubt it because you do not understand it. A conflict initiated in Kashmir, can be contained in Kashmir as it is a 'disputed' territory.

Looks like you totally forgot your history. You may want to read up on Indo Pak war in 1965. In 1999 we didn't cross the IB was simply because we were having a lot of success in kicking the Pakistani Intruders out so we never bothered.

 

[niaz]

Was the Kargil War a complete victory? No it wasn't.
Was the Kargil War a complete loss? No it wasn't.

It was a tactical victory for Pakistan because Pakistan gained some strategic peaks which overlook the Drass and Kargil highway .



It was a Diplomatic victory for India, because USA saved her for whatever reasons(maybe to keep the Kashmir conflict brewing).

We all know the truth. The LOC of 2012 is not the same LOC of Pre-1999. The LOC is further down into Indian territory because Pakistan captured some strategic Peaks.

Like I said, it was a "tactical victory", but the gain was small indeed.

A complete victory in Pakistani terms would be liberate all of Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir or atleast a huge chunk of it.


Check this link, “We lost Kargil” Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ost-kargil-lieutenant-general-kishan-pal.html

So this topic was discussed before.

So in Assessment:

Just as I thought:

Facts:
1) Pakistan did have the upper hand in the beginning
2) Pakistan in the end still kept some peaks -> A strategic victory. but a victory nonetheless, a tactical victory. The infamous Point 5353 is one of the strategic points that Pakistan gained.

3) USA saved India, when India was at her worst moment, had USA not intervened, Ladakh would be lost and that would have been a turning in world history.

I respectfully regret my inability to agree with you. I have heard Lt Gen Krishan Pal’s video again and again. All he says is that "it was highly embarrassing and that he is not convinced that it was a victory for India”. Nowhere does he say that it was a victory for Pakistan. I am also amazed on your point 3 that USA saved India. How can people have such short memory? I heard Nawaz Sharif myself on his return from Washington. NS said that Indians had agreed to give safe passage if we pull back the fighters and that Clinton has promised to use his good offices to help solve Kashmir issue in return. How can it be interpreted as US saving India? Nawaz Sharif has always maintained that he saved Musharraf from defeat.

Here is an excerpt from a book by Strobe Talbot, a retired senior US State Dept official.
Pak1stanFirst-Actual Conversation Between Clinton And Nawaz, Word For Word | Archived
Quote

When Sharif insisted he had to have something to show for his trip to the US beyond unconditional surrender over Kargil, Clinton pointed to the dangers of nuclear war if Pakistan did not return to its previous positions. Seeing they were getting nowhere, Clinton told Sharif he had a statement ready to release to press that would lay all the blame for the crisis on Pakistan. 'Sharif was ashen.' 'Clinton had worked himself back into real anger - his face flushed, eyes narrowed, lips pursed, cheek muscles pulsing, fists clenched. He said it was crazy enough for Sharif to have let his military violate the Line of Control, start a border war with India, and now prepare nuclear forces (U.S. had received intelligence Pakistan was preparing nuclear forces for attack against India) for action,' Talbot says in his book. 'Sharif seemed beaten, physically and emotionally' and denied he had given any order with regard to nuclear weaponry. Taking a break, Clinton spoke to then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee over phone and told him what had happened until then. 'What do you want me to say?' Vajpayee asked. 'Nothing,' Clinton replied, he just wanted to show he was holding.” Now Nawaz Sharif and his paid clients in Pakistani politics and media are blaming Musharraf for Kargil, claiming he had no idea about Kargil, when even Clinton knew that it was planned by Nawaz Sharif and the paid retired officers who are now singing the song of Noon League.
Unquote.

All the discussion here is based on an interview of one Indian General who never said that it was a victory for Pakistan. On the other hand I have heard Lt Gen Kiyani and now Majeed Malik severely criticizing Musharraf on this misadventure and claiming it a disaster. Even Nawaz Sharif who was the Prime Minister says so. It is not a sign of weakness to accept our mistakes and learn from them. In fact it shows strength of character to admit your failings.

My dear fellow Pakistani. One would never learn from the past if one continues to live in a delusion. As I said earlier that the Kargil affair and the ignoble way a safe passage was arranged by Clinton to get the NLI men back to Pakistan pained me immensely. But I refuse to live in a fantasy world and call it a victory. If Kargil was a victory then what would you call a defeat?

 

[VCheng]

.................
My dear fellow Pakistani. One would never learn from the past if one continues to live in a delusion. As I said earlier that the Kargil affair and the ignoble way a safe passage was arranged by Clinton to get the NLI men back to Pakistan pained me immensely. But I refuse to live in a fantasy world and call it a victory. If Kargil was a victory then what would you call a defeat?

Defeat? The East Pakistan debacle.

 

[Bang Galore]

Funny how Pakistanis keep quoting Lt.Gen. Kishan Pal. This was a man who famously said Kargil was a small skirmish, got gallantry awards for himself & some others for "winning" the war. He was found to have fudged reports & indicted by the Armed forces Tribunal & in response gave a bunch of interviews like that seen. Maybe he won a gallantry award for losing..... Normal human behaviour, he was discredited, so lashed out.

In the latest such episode, the armed forces tribunal (AFT) has indicted the then 15 Corps commander Lt-General Kishan Pal for doctoring "battle-performance and after-action reports'' to belittle the achievements of the then Batalik-based 70 Infantry Brigade commander Devinder Singh.
Kargil war: Lt-Gen doctored reports - Times Of India

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Here is an excerpt from a book by Strobe Talbot, a retired senior US State Dept official.
Pak1stanFirst-Actual Conversation Between Clinton And Nawaz, Word For Word | Archived
Quote

When Sharif insisted he had to have something to show for his trip to the US beyond unconditional surrender over Kargil, Clinton pointed to the dangers of nuclear war if Pakistan did not return to its previous positions. Seeing they were getting nowhere, Clinton told Sharif he had a statement ready to release to press that would lay all the blame for the crisis on Pakistan. 'Sharif was ashen.' 'Clinton had worked himself back into real anger - his face flushed, eyes narrowed, lips pursed, cheek muscles pulsing, fists clenched. He said it was crazy enough for Sharif to have let his military violate the Line of Control, start a border war with India, and now prepare nuclear forces (U.S. had received intelligence Pakistan was preparing nuclear forces for attack against India) for action,' Talbot says in his book. 'Sharif seemed beaten, physically and emotionally' and denied he had given any order with regard to nuclear weaponry. Taking a break, Clinton spoke to then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee over phone and told him what had happened until then. 'What do you want me to say?' Vajpayee asked. 'Nothing,' Clinton replied, he just wanted to show he was holding.” Now Nawaz Sharif and his paid clients in Pakistani politics and media are blaming Musharraf for Kargil, claiming he had no idea about Kargil, when even Clinton knew that it was planned by Nawaz Sharif and the paid retired officers who are now singing the song of Noon League.
Unquote.

Wow! this really changes what i previously thought.

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

20000yrs may be tough! I'm thinking of 20 yrs. After all, my shiv mama will help me in it.

in 20 years,your economic condition would be more worse ,desh sadhin holo to 41 bochor,ekhono pole-vault kore to amader desh'e aste hoy, jar desh'e ekta paramilitary force (BDR) revolt'e pray almost coup hoye gechilo,tar abar lomba,lomba kotha

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Kargil was a major success for pakistan---. It told the world---with minimum capabilities a dedicated military force can take on a massive power in a hostile environment and hold it back for awhile and let the political powers do their thing---. In this case---the political power houses were 'chicken'.

It also showed pakistan---that if the military was better equipped in upto date weapons systems---india could not have done much other than go to a full fledged war---.

This should have been an eye opener for pakistanis and they should have focused on strengthening their short-comings---like the air force and surface to air counter measures---.

But instead of focussing in the right direction and thinking like israel after the 73 war---pakistanis started blaming each other---.

These young indian kids and retd indian army people can come and say whatever---but the thrashing that the indian mililitary got at the hands of such an ill-eqipped endeavour was a joke amongst the world militaries---.

The weaknesses of the indian army and its might were blown open---in the middle of the skirmish---indian army ran out of 155mm shells---.

Pakistanis---if they had any brains---would have looked at it this way---if with such minimal resources---we held off indian military for so many days---what would have happened if our resources would have been ten folds---.

 

[Mav3rick]

Now did you achieve any of the two objectives. Your Army started the incursion with those two objective in mind. Did you achieve any of the two objectives. Kashmir valley is at its most peaceful right now in last 20-25 years since militancy started. No country (those that matter) give a damn about Pakistan's position on Kashmir. Your best friend and soul mate China wants a staus Quo on the LOC. They even stopped the Stapled Visa they used to give Kashmiris. Even the remaining countries mostly Isamic Countries only give lip service to Pakistan's position. Nobody takes you seriously on Kashmir. As I stated earlier you lost all your credibility on Kashmir thanks to Kargil. Things will never be the same again. Now if this is not abject failure then what is.

IA objective were clear. Throw the intruduers back to LOC. And it achieved it. This is called success.

If it gives you some consolation occupying a post that was never occupied by IA good for you. Also remember thanks to Kargil your county lost India's trust and we will never leave Siachin. I guess jo hota hai acche ke liye he hota hai.

We could not achieve what we set out to do because of disparity b/w the resolve of the military and the civilian leadership. Our civilian leadership, even when India conducted those Nuclear tests in May 1998, was unwilling to respond in kind and had to be forced by the military to conduct test of our own.

But, taking nothing away from you, we failed in Kargil despite military victory. However, when we have the guts to accept that Kargil eventually was a victory for India, you should have the moral courage to accept that 4k-5k fighters gave 30k-35k Indian military + 10 squadrons if IAF a run for their money and could still not be dislodged from all peaks.

Looks like you totally forgot your history. You may want to read up on Indo Pak war in 1965. In 1999 we didn't cross the IB was simply because we were having a lot of success in kicking the Pakistani Intruders out so we never bothered.

Even today we hold on to peaks at Kargil, kinda rubbishes your claims...doesn't it?

 

[RajputWarrior]

Even today we hold on to peaks at Kargil, kinda rubbishes your claims...doesn't it?

At what cost!

It was condemned internationally! Even after 60+ years you people STILL cannot take back Kashmir

 

[angeldude13]

Hi,

Kargil was a major success for pakistan---. It told the world---with minimum capabilities a dedicated military force can take on a massive power in a hostile environment and hold it back for awhile and let the political powers do their thing---. In this case---the political power houses were 'chicken'.

It also showed pakistan---that if the military was better equipped in upto date weapons systems---india could not have done much other than go to a full fledged war---.

This should have been an eye opener for pakistanis and they should have focused on strengthening their short-comings---like the air force and surface to air counter measures---.

But instead of focussing in the right direction and thinking like israel after the 73 war---pakistanis started blaming each other---.

These young indian kids and retd indian army people can come and say whatever---but the thrashing that the indian mililitary got at the hands of such an ill-eqipped endeavour was a joke amongst the world militaries---.

The weaknesses of the indian army and its might were blown open---in the middle of the skirmish---indian army ran out of 155mm shells---.

Pakistanis---if they had any brains---would have looked at it this way---if with such minimal resources---we held off indian military for so many days---what would have happened if our resources would have been ten folds---.

yes a major success in not accepting the bodies of your dead soldiers.they died for there country and what did they got???
kargil was no success you lost it diplomatically and militarily.