Kargil war was a total disaster, claims Gen Majeed Malik

[Mav3rick]

Hi,

Kargil was a major success for pakistan---. It told the world---with minimum capabilities a dedicated military force can take on a massive power in a hostile environment and hold it back for awhile and let the political powers do their thing---. In this case---the political power houses were 'chicken'.

It also showed pakistan---that if the military was better equipped in upto date weapons systems---india could not have done much other than go to a full fledged war---.

This should have been an eye opener for pakistanis and they should have focused on strengthening their short-comings---like the air force and surface to air counter measures---.

But instead of focussing in the right direction and thinking like israel after the 73 war---pakistanis started blaming each other---.

These young indian kids and retd indian army people can come and say whatever---but the thrashing that the indian mililitary got at the hands of such an ill-eqipped endeavour was a joke amongst the world militaries---.

The weaknesses of the indian army and its might were blown open---in the middle of the skirmish---indian army ran out of 155mm shells---.

Pakistanis---if they had any brains---would have looked at it this way---if with such minimal resources---we held off indian military for so many days---what would have happened if our resources would have been ten folds---.

Perhaps, that's how the Military looks at things internally, they do not necessarily showcase all their plans. Besides, the Military got its attention divided as then it had to run a country too, for 8 years.

However, Indian Military learnt a lesson as well and began a much needed modernization plan. They could have pulled ahead of us by now had they been more effective and dedicated to the MMRCA project as well as some other Naval and Army projects.

yes a major success in not accepting the bodies of your dead soldiers.they died for there country and what did they got???
kargil was no success you lost it diplomatically and militarily.

Not a single shred of evidence for that, except Indian sources.

 

[LOVETOALL]

Javed Hussan ans Musharraf are main conspirator of Kargil. The assumptions are

1. Heights, once occupied, could be held by small groups for at least the entire summer.

2. Those men could be resupplied with food and water and ammo for months using mountain trails and helicopters, under fire.

3. The Indian army was incapable of attacking from any direction except straight up the front slopes, where they would be cut down like “gajjar and mooli”.

4. and beneath all that, a lingering notion that “our boys” will be suicidally brave and the other side will not be so.

Indian army cut suppy line and leaving freezing pakistani troops exposed on the heights without food or water. Musharraf seems to have focused mostly on making sure the blame could be put on Nawaz Sharif.

It is shame that because of these two generals 3000 soldier were lef for dying.

You can read on details..
Kargil war | Brown Pundits

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

That is your media's stand as asserted by your military, including some staged dramas by your military men that have been uncovered. There are bodies missing from WW1 and WW2, a missing body cannot be construed as PakMil's refusal to accept bodies of martyred soldiers.





Yeah, that refutes my post.





Peak 5353 is the highest peak of the area and the most strategic, it is not surrounded by Indian held peaks but Indian held positions that can only be considered targets from peak 5353. Go read the article I provided.





The same can be said about Siachin pre-Indian capture, can it not?





I am not saying that the Indian Military did not fight with courage and patriotism, or that they could achieve nothing. However, consider the fact that Indian military during that conflict had 6-7 times numerical superiority as well as official logistics/supply lines and support of IAF, 10 squadrons of it! That is overwhelming power but despite that, the NLI fought valiantly and repulsed many Indian advances....they still hold 4-5 peaks along with the most important peak 5353 is proof enough.

Furthermore, you can only imagine what would have been the end result if Pakistani Civilian establishment had refused the American dictation and had officially supported the NLI with reinforcements/supplies and PAF. I mean imagine if Pakistan had escalated the conflict to match the Indian response.





There is a world of proof how NS was forced to back down and how most of the casualties out of a total of under 500 casualties on Pakistani side were suffered under retreat. So it was India that NS saved from utter humiliation. Even more so, the lessons learnt from Kargil ensured that Indian Military could never dared cross an inch of border after Mumbai attacks. Not even an inch! All they could do was amass almost a million soldiers at our border and then send them back!





And you continue to misunderstand. Kargil was initiated only to force India to negotiate a permanent solution to Kashmir and if need be, involve international community to force a settlement on Kashmir. It was never meant to initiate a war, but rather to ensure that we never had anything to go to war about again.....I wonder why that is so hard for you guys!

i do not understand why r u bringing uncle sam into all these,the reltionship between india and usa was the lowest of low in 1990s,it only improved after 9/11 during bush's regime,then why would usa persued the NS government to pull back??? and u think only pakistan gained territory during the war Redirect Notice see pt-3 "truths about 5353" where brigadier aul odered his troops to cross loc and take 4875,4261... and the most ridiculuos part of ur entire post is that these were the bodies of WW1 & 2 soldirs,& not pakistani army : just one for ur knowledge
the mujahideens and Pak army did not do a favour to india by vacating most of the peaks..they were not under any diplomatic pressure either,specially the mujahideens...they only left kargil as they were compelled to do so by the indian air force and army

 

[Mav3rick]

Javed Hussan ans Musharraf are main conspirator of Kargil. The assumptions are

1. Heights, once occupied, could be held by small groups for at least the entire summer.

2. Those men could be resupplied with food and water and ammo for months using mountain trails and helicopters, under fire.

3. The Indian army was incapable of attacking from any direction except straight up the front slopes, where they would be cut down like “gajjar and mooli”.

4. and beneath all that, a lingering notion that “our boys” will be suicidally brave and the other side will not be so.

Indian army cut suppy line and leaving freezing pakistani troops exposed on the heights without food or water. Musharraf seems to have focused mostly on making sure the blame could be put on Nawaz Sharif.

It is shame that because of these two generals 3000 soldier were lef for dying.

You can read on details..
Kargil war | Brown Pundits

Why would we want to read what somebody thought were assumptions on Pakistani side when we know what really went on?

 

[angeldude13]

Perhaps, that's how the Military looks at things internally, they do not necessarily showcase all their plans. Besides, the Military got its attention divided as then it had to run a country too, for 8 years.

However, Indian Military learnt a lesson as well and began a much needed modernization plan. They could have pulled ahead of us by now had they been more effective and dedicated to the MMRCA project as well as some other Naval and Army projects.



Not a single shred of evidence for that, except Indian sources.

and those indian sources contains videos.
i believe you can differentiate b/w the indian soldiers and a pakistani soldiers.i would not waste my time in posting them videos which have been posted in this thread by other indian members.
my cousin brother was there in 1999 war so i believe what he says about the war and not some hyperbola bs by some pakistani who lives in australia....

 

[snakeeagle]

itd just a diplomatic failure by govt of pakistan.

 

[LOVETOALL]

For all pakistan who dont know what is kargil war should go through following thesis on Kargil war:


http://www.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CCC/Research/StudentTheses/Acosta03.pdf

“AN INGLORIOUS END TO A GLORIOUS ADVENTURE” | Irfan Waheed Usmani - Academia.edu


http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/kargil.pdf

Pakistan army generals has always different story of their battles. They are actually not fighting but their petty soldier. At least they should be awarded for their suicidal bravery instead of novel prize to Malala.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

The weaknesses of the indian army and its might were blown open---in the middle of the skirmish---indian army ran out of 155mm shells---.

Source?

Pakistanis---if they had any brains---would have looked at it this way---if with such minimal resources---we held off indian military for so many days---what would have happened if our resources would have been ten folds---.

By the extension of above logic, since in 1971 120 Indian soldiers with a recoiless rifle were able to hold off against 2400 Pakistani troops with tanks and Armoured carriers with losses of just 2 soldiers, Imagine how much they could achieve with 1.1 million troops in 2012

Of course, you won't see Indians gloating above.

The question here is end result.

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

Why would we want to read what somebody thought were assumptions on Pakistani side when we know what really went on?

because u don't know the truth and don't want to know it..ur r happy to blindly close ur eyes and believe anything and everything the media tells u...just a short story about ur media,my grandfather was in "east pakistan" when the war broke out,and everyday the "radio pakistan"claimed to have won the battle againt "traitors & infidels"..one day they claimed "today the brave pakistani forces have captured the howrah bridge and now its a matter of time before calcutta falls",and the next day,niazi surrendered

 

[snakeeagle]

who went to clintent 4 help,may be some body forget that.

hi america, mar dala.

 

[deckingraj]

We could not achieve what we set out to do because of disparity b/w the resolve of the military and the civilian leadership. Our civilian leadership, even when India conducted those Nuclear tests in May 1998, was unwilling to respond in kind and had to be forced by the military to conduct test of our own.

Well that is your internal politics and i have nothing much to say about it. However it is very difficult for me to believe that your civilian leadership would have been able to handle the internal pressure(public) had they not gone nuclear especially when they had to resort to all possible activities(good/bad) to achieve the nuclear bomb.

But, taking nothing away from you, we failed in Kargil despite military victory. However, when we have the guts to accept that Kargil eventually was a victory for India, you should have the moral courage to accept that 4k-5k fighters gave 30k-35k Indian military + 10 squadrons if IAF a run for their money and could still not be dislodged from all peaks.

Actually depends on what you call a Military victory and i am not sure how is it different from Political victory because the conflict was initiated itself for a political cause...Anyhow i will not indulge much into that as well because at the end of the day one will believe what one want to believe. Now coming to your disparity thingi...then let's not just ignore the terrain and the advantageous positions these people were sitting in...Siachen should be a good eye opener. I would request you to check your records on how many times you have tried to win it back before finally concluding that the glacier cannot be won by force...Now kargil peaks are no way as inhabitable as Siachen is however does give an inclination about how difficult it is for someone to be dislodged when someone is well dug into those heights...

Last but not the least it is not our issue that your civilian leadership and your military leadership was not in synch or somebody chickened out or something like that. At the end of war you were in a far inferior position than what you were prior to it...and have caused yourself some irreversible damage...Now call it a Military victory or whatever those facts will not change...

Finally i would say let's all grow up. We in India can cry a river that had we used IAF in 62 we would have changed the course of war...but the fact remains that we got a good spanking...Accept the fact and move one...I see similar issues with Pakistani counterparts....

Even today we hold on to peaks at Kargil, kinda rubbishes your claims...doesn't it?

No it doesn't....To be honest i am not sure what Peaks you are talking about...but at the end of the day cost vs strategic importance is the key....b/w Just looks at the action followed by both the countries post war and you will get an inclination of who actually did well.....Kargil review committee was set up by one side immediately after the war whereas any such thing is yet to see the light of the day on other....Does that give any message?

 

[Mujraparty]

Pakistani definition of winning the war = killing more enemy soldiers

 

[nair]

I Wonder how many pages have been written on kargil on PDF.... Still no agreement???... Well accoridng to me..

Kargil was a lesson for india -

1) How bad is india's intelligence capability
2) What will happen when u trust pakistan start working towards settling issues ( poor vajpayee )
3) Pakistan elected govt has no power and it is waste of time to discuss with them ( the real power is military ) ( i dont think india has ever used the learnt lesson becos now also they go and discuss with their govt dono for what purpose? and what will be the out come?)
4) Boffors guns is a useful gun ( we always thought that the gun is a useless one becos of the bribe involved with it)
5) How to use diplomacy to defeat an enemy
6) How to win a war with out crossing the boarder
7) How to respect an enemy army men and behave like a respectable army ( They have performed the last rights of enemy army men according to their religion even after pakistan govt rejected to accept their bodies stating they are Mujahidheens)
8) How to fight a war on most adverse condition recapture the land back - Pakistan is still trying to do that for past 23 years in siachin and never could do it.
9) How to use effectively air force in one of the most demanding hights in the world.
10) Even after defeating pakistan comprehensively how difficult to convince pakistani people about their defeat!!!!

Its 13 years over already... Entire world knows the result.... Why are we still fighting about this... Lets move on.....

 

[LOVETOALL]

By saying that Mujahideen conducted operation, it was the insult to Shia NLI troop. I have read in Pakistani newpaper about the outraged among local people when dead bodied was thrown outside there home in night in civilian cloths with any military honour.

 

[TheRafael00000]

in 20 years,your economic condition would be more worse ,desh sadhin holo to 41 bochor,ekhono pole-vault kore to amader desh'e aste hoy, jar desh'e ekta paramilitary force (BDR) revolt'e pray almost coup hoye gechilo,tar abar lomba,lomba kotha

Banglai je kotha bolen kon banglai bolen! kotota improvement kolkata basir. akhono to Mumbai r pa chete jete hoi. Bangla medium ar pora lakha to late gase. koidin por to banglai hawa hoye jabe, Bangladeshi der chitai apnadeer shikkhito korbo. Chinta koiren na.