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Kargil and PAF's role - by a PAF officer.

Interesting read. Please comment.

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

Pakistani writings on Kargil conflict have been few and, those that have come out were largely irrelevant and in a few cases, clearly sponsored. The role of the PAF has been discussed off and on, but mostly disparagingly, particularly in some uninformed quarters. Here is an airman’s perspective, focusing on the IAF’s air operations and the PAF’s position.

Operational Planning in the PAF

Since an important portion of this write-up pertains to the PAF’s appreciation of the situation and the decision-making loop during the Kargil conflict, we will start with a brief primer on PAF’s hierarchy and how operational matters are handled at the Air Headquarters.

The policy-making elements at Air Headquarters consist of four-tiers of staff officers. The top-most tier is made up of the Deputy Chiefs of Air Staff (DCAS) who are the Principal Staff Officers (PSOs) of their respective branches and are nominally headed by the Vice Chief of Air Staff (VCAS). They (along with Air Officers Commanding, the senior representatives from field formations) are members of the Air Board, PAF’s ‘corporate’ decision-making body which is chaired by the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS). The next tier is made up of Assistant Chiefs of Air Staff (ACAS) who head various sub-branches and, along with the third-tier Directors, assist the PSOs in policy-making; they are not on the Air Board, but can be called for hearings and presentations in the Board meetings, as required. A fourth tier of Deputy Directors does most of the sundry staff work in this policy-making hierarchy.

The Operations & Plans branch is the key player in any war, conflict or contingency and is responsible for threat assessment and formulation of a suitable response. During peace-time, war plans are drawn up by the Plans sub-branch and are then war-gamed in operational exercises run by the sister Operations sub-branch. Operational training is accordingly restructured and administered by the latter, based on the lessons of various exercises. This essentially is the gist of PAF’s operational preparedness methodology, the efficiency of which is amply reflected in its readiness and telling response in various wars and skirmishes in the past.

In early 1999, Air Chief Marshal Parvaiz Mehdi Qureshi was at the helm of the PAF. An officer with an imposing personality, he had won the Sword of Honour at the Academy. During the 1971 Indo-Pak War, as a young Flight Lieutenant, he was on a close support mission in erstwhile East Pakistan when his Sabre was shot down and he was taken POW. He determinedly resumed his fighter pilot’s career after repatriation and rose to command PAF’s premier Sargodha Base. He was later appointed as the AOC, Southern Air Command, an appointment that affords considerable interaction amongst the three services, especially in operational exercises. He also held the vitally important post of DCAS (Ops) as well as the VCAS before taking over as CAS.

The post of DCAS (Ops) was held by the late Air Marshal Zahid Anis. A well-qualified fighter pilot, he had a distinguished career in the PAF, having held some of the most sought-after appointments. These included command of No 38 Tactical Wing (F-16s), the elite Combat Commanders’ School and PAF Base, Sargodha. He was the AOC, Southern Air Command before his appointment as the head of the Operations branch at the Air Headquarters. He had done his Air War Course at the PAF’s Air War College, another War Course at the French War College as well as the prestigious course at the Royal College of Defence Studies in UK.

The ACAS (Ops) was Air Cdre Abid Rao, who had recently completed command of PAF Base, Mianwali. He had earlier done his War Course from the French War College.

The ACAS (Plans) was the late Air Cdre Saleem Nawaz, a brilliant officer who had made his mark at the Staff College at Bracknell, UK and during the War Course at the National Defence College, Islamabad.

There is no gainsaying the fact that PAF’s hierarchy was highly qualified and that each one of the players in the Operations branch had the requisite command and staff experience. The two top men had also fought in the 1971 Indo-Pak War, albeit as junior officers.

First Rumblings

As Director of Operations (in the rank of Gp Capt), my first opportunity to interact with the Army’s Director of Military Operations (DMO) was over a phone call, some time in March 1999. Brig Nadeem Ahmed called with great courtesy and requested some information that he needed for a paper exercise, as he told me. He wanted to know when had the PAF last carried out a deployment at Skardu, how many aircraft were deployed, etc. Rather impressed with the Army’s interest in PAF matters, I passed on the requisite details. The next day, Brig Nadeem called again, but this time his questions were more probing and he wanted some classified information including fuel storage capacity at Skardu, fighter sortie-generation capacity, radar coverage, etc. He insisted that he was preparing a briefing and wanted to get his facts and figures right, in front of his bosses. We got on a secure line and I passed on the required information. Although he made it sound like routine contingency planning, I sensed that something unusual was brewing. In the event, I thought it prudent to inform the DCAS (Ops). Just to be sure, he checked up with his counterpart, the Director General Military Operations (DGMO), Maj Gen Tauqir Zia, who said the same thing as his DMO and, assured that it was just part of routine contingency planning.

After hearing Gp Capt Tariq’s report, Air Marshal Zahid again got in touch with Maj Gen Tauqir and, in a roundabout way, told him that if the Army’s ongoing ‘review of contingency plans’ required the PAF to be factored in, an Operations & Plans team would be available for discussion. Nothing was heard from the GHQ till 12 May, when Air Marshal Zahid was told to send a team for a briefing at HQ 10 Corps with regard to the ‘Kashmir Contingency’.

Air Cdre Abid Rao, Air Cdre Saleem Nawaz and myself were directed by the DCAS (Ops) to attend a briefing on the ‘latest situation in Kashmir’ at HQ 10 Corps. We were welcomed by the Chief of Staff (COS) of the Corps, who led us to the briefing room. Shortly thereafter, the Corps Commander, Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmad entered, cutting an impressive figure clad in a bush-coat and his trademark camouflage scarf. After exchanging pleasantries, the COS started with the map orientation briefing. Thereafter, Lt Gen Mehmud took over and broke the news that a limited operation had started two days earlier. It was nothing more than a ‘protective manoeuvre’, he explained, and was meant to foreclose any further mischief by the enemy, who had been a nuisance in the Neelum Valley, specially on the road on our side of the Line of Control (LOC). He then elaborated that a few vacant Indian posts had been occupied on peaks across the LOC, overlooking the Dras-Kargil Road. These would, in effect, serve the purpose of Airborne Observation Posts (AOP) meant for directing artillery fire with accuracy. Artillery firepower would be provided by a couple of field guns that had been heli-lifted to the heights, piecemeal, and re-assembled over the previous few months when the Indians had been off-guard during the winter extremes. The target was a vulnerable section of Dras-Kargil Road, whose blocking would virtually cut off the crucial life-line which carried the bulk of supplies needed for daily consumption as well as annual winter-stocking in Leh-Siachen Sector. He was very hopeful that this stratagem could choke off the Indians in the vital sector for up to a month, after which the monsoons would prevent vehicular movement (due to landslides) and, also suspend all airlift by the IAF. “Come October, we shall walk in to Siachen – to mop up the dead bodies of hundreds of Indians left hungry, out in the cold,” he succinctly summed up what appeared to be a new dimension to the Siachen dispute. It also seemed to serve, at least for the time being, the secondary aim of alleviating Indian military pressure on Pakistani lines of communications in the Neelum Valley that the Corps Commander had alluded to in his opening remarks. (The oft-heard strategic aim of ‘providing a fillip to the insurgency in Kashmir’ was never mentioned.)

When Lt Gen Mehmud asked for questions at the end of the rather crisp and to-the-point briefing, Air Cdre Saleem Nawaz opened up by inquiring about the type of air support that might be needed for the operation. Lt Gen Mehmud assured us that air support was not envisaged and that his forces could take care of enemy aircraft, if they intervened. “I have Stingers on every peak,” he announced. Air Cdre Saleem tried to point out the limited envelope of these types of missiles and said that nothing stopped the IAF from attacking the posts and artillery pieces from high altitude. To this, Lt Gen Mehmud’s reply was that his troops were well camouflaged and concealed and, that IAF pilots would not be able to pick out the posts from the air. As the discussion became more animated, I asked the Corps Commander if he was sure the Indians would not use their artillery to vacate our incursion, given the criticality of the situation from their standpoint. He replied that the Dras-Kargil stretch did not allow for positioning of the hundreds of guns that would be required, due to lack of depth; in any case, it would be suicidal for the Indians to denude artillery firepower from any other sector as defensive balance had to be maintained. He gave the example of the Kathua-Jammu Sector where the Indians had a compulsion to keep the bulk of their modern Bofors guns due to the vital road link’s vulnerability to our offensive elements.

It seemed from the Corps Commander’s smug appreciation of the situation that the Indians had been tightly straitjacketed in Dras-Kargil Sector and had no option but to submit to our operational design. More significantly, an alternate action like a strategic riposte by the Indians in another sector had been rendered out of question, given the nuclear environment. Whether resort to an exterior manoeuvre (diplomatic offensive) by the beleaguered Indians had crossed the planners’ minds, it was not discernable in the Corps Commander’s elucidation.

Perhaps it was the incredulousness of the whole thing that led Air Cdre Abid Rao to famously quip, “After this operation, it’s going to be either a Court Martial or Martial Law!” as we walked out of the briefing room.

Back at the Air Headquarters, we briefed the DCAS(Ops) about what had transpired at the 10 Corps briefing. His surprise at the developments, as well as his concern about the possibility of events spiralling out of control, could not remain concealed behind his otherwise unflappable demeanour. We all were also piqued at being left out of the Army’s planning, though we were given to believe that it was a ‘limited tactical action’ in which the PAF would not be required – an issue that none of us agreed with. Presented with a fait accompli, we decided not to lose any more time and, while the DCAS (Ops) went to brief the CAS about the situation, we set about gearing up for a hectic routine. The operations room was quickly updated with the latest large-scale maps and air recce photos of the area; communications links with concerned agencies were also revamped in a short time. Deployment orders were issued and, within the next 48 hours, the bulk of combat elements were in-situ at their war locations.

IAF – By Fits & Starts

The IAF deployments in Kashmir, for what came to be known as ‘Operation Safedsagar’, commenced on 15 May with the bulk of operational assets positioned by 18 May. 150 combat aircraft were deployed as follows:
> Srinagar - 34 (MiG-21, MiG23, MiG-27)

> Awantipur - 28 (MiG-21, MiG29, Jaguar)

> Udhampur - 12 (MiG-21)

> Pathankot - 30 (MiG-21, MiG-23)

> Adampur - 46 (Mir-2000, MiG-29, Jaguar)

One-third of the aircraft were modern, ‘high-threat’ fighters equipped with Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missiles. During the preparatory stage, air defence alert status (5 minutes to scramble from ground) was maintained while Mirage-2000s and Jaguars carried out photo-reconnaissance along the Line of Control (LOC) and aging Canberras carried out electronic intelligence (ELINT) to ferret out locations of PAF air defence sensors. Last minute honing of strafing and rocketing skills was carried out by pilots at an air-to-ground firing range near Leh.

Operations by IAF started in earnest on 26 May, a full 16 days after commencement of Pakistani infiltration across the LOC. The salient feature of this initial phase was strafing and rocketing of the intruders’ positions by MiG-21, MiG-23BN and MiG-27. All operations (except air defence) came to a sudden standstill on 28 May, after two IAF fighters and a helicopter were lost – a MiG-21 and a Mi-17 to Pak Army surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), while a MiG-27 went down due to engine trouble caused by gun gas ingestion during high altitude strafing. (Incidentally, the pilot of the MiG-27 Flt Lt Nachiketa, who ejected and was apprehended, had a tête-à-tête with this author during an interesting ‘interrogation’ session.)

The results achieved by the IAF in the first two days were dismal. Serious restraints seem to have been imposed on the freedom of action of IAF fighters in what was basically a search-and-destroy mission. Lt Gen Mehmud’s rant about a ‘Stinger on every peak’ seemed true. It was obvious that the IAF had under-estimated the SAM threat. The mood in Pak Army circles was that of undiluted elation, and the PAF was expected to sit it out while sharing the khakis’ glee.

The IAF immediately went into a reappraisal mode and came out with GPS-assisted high altitude bombing by MiG-21, MiG-23BN and MiG-27 as a makeshift solution. In the meantime, quick modification on the Mirage-2000 for day/night laser bombing kits (Litening pods) was initiated with the help of Israelis. Conventional bombing that started incessantly after a two-day operational hiatus, was aimed at harassment and denial of respite to the infiltrators, with consequent adverse effects on morale. The results of this part of the campaign were largely insignificant, mainly because the target coordinates were not known accurately; the nature of the terrain too, precluded precision. A few cases of fratricide by IAF led it to be even more cautious.

By 16 June, IAF was able to open up the laser-guided bombing campaign with the help of Jaguars and Mirage-2000. Daily photo-recce along the LOC by Jaguars escorted by Mirage-2000s, which had continued from the beginning of operations, proved crucial to both the aerial bombing campaign as well as the Indian artillery, helping the latter in accurately shelling Pakistani positions in the Dras-Kargil and Gultari Sectors. While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries). Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently cocked-a-snoot at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.

The Mirage-2000s scored at least five successful laser-guided bomb hits on forward dumping sites and posts. During the last days of operations which ended on 12 July, it was clear that delivery accuracy had improved considerably. Even though night bombing accuracy was suspect, round-the-clock attacks had made retention of posts untenable for Pakistani infiltrators. Photo-recce of Pakistani artillery gun positions also made them vulnerable to Indian artillery.

The IAF flew a total of 550 strike missions against infiltrator positions including bunkers and supply depots. The coordinates of these locations were mostly picked up from about 150 reconnaissance and communications intelligence missions. In addition, 500 missions were flown for air defence and for escorting strike and recce missions.

While the Indians had been surprised by the infiltration in Kargil, the IAF mobilised and reacted rapidly as the Indian Army took time to position itself. Later, when the Indian Army had entrenched itself, the IAF supplemented and filled in where the artillery could not be positioned in force. Clearly, Army-Air joint operations had a synergistic effect in evicting the intruders.

PAF in a Bind

From the very beginning of Kargil operations, PAF was entrapped by a circumstantial absurdity: it was faced with the ludicrous predicament of having to provide air support to infiltrators already disowned by the Pakistan Army leadership! In any case, it took some effort to impress on the latter that crossing the LOC by fighters laden with bombs was not, by any stretch of imagination, akin to lobbing a few artillery shells to settle scores. There was no doubt in the minds of PAF Air Staff that the first cross-border attack (whether across LOC or the international border) would invite an immediate response from the IAF, possibly in the shape of a retaliatory strike against the home base of the intruding fighters, thus starting the first round. PAF’s intervention meant all-out war: this unmistakable conclusion was conveyed to the Prime Minister, Mr Nawaz Sharif, by the Air Chief in no equivocal terms.

Short of starting an all-out war, PAF looked at some saner options that could put some wind in the sails after doldrums had been hit. Air Marshal Najib Akhtar, the Air Officer Commanding of Air Defence Command was co-opted by the Air Staff to sift the possibilities. Audacious and innovative in equal parts, Air Marshal Najib had an excellent knowledge about our own and the enemy’s Air Defence Ground Environment (ADGE). He had conceived and overseen the unprecedented heli-lift of a low-looking radar to a 14,000-ft mountain top on the forbidding Deosai Plateau. The highly risky operation became possible with the help of some courageous flying by Army Aviation pilots. With good low level radar cover now available up to the LOC, Air Marshal Najib along with the Air Staff focused on fighter sweep (a mission flown to destroy patrolling enemy fighters) as a possible option.

To prevent the mission from being seen as an escalatory step in the already charged atmosphere, PAF had to lure Indian fighters into its own territory, ie Azad Kashmir or the Northern Areas. That done, a number of issues had to be tackled. What if the enemy aircraft were hit in our territory but fell across, providing a pretext to India as a doubly aggrieved party? What if one of our own aircraft fell, no matter if the exchange was one-to-one (or better)? Finally, even if we were able to pull off a surprise, would it not be a one-off incident, with the IAF wisening up in quick time? The over-arching consideration was the BVR missile capability of IAF fighters which impinged unfavourably on the mission success probability. The conclusion was that a replication of the famous four-Vampire rout of 1st September 1965 by two Sabres might not be possible. The idea of a fighter sweep thus fizzled out as quickly as it came up for discussion.

While the PAF looked at some offensive options, it had a more pressing defensive issue at hand. The IAF’s minor border violations during recce missions were not of grave consequence in so far as no bombing had taken place in our territory; however, the fact that these missions helped the enemy refine its air and artillery targeting, was, to say the least, disconcerting. There were constant reports of our troops on the LOC disturbed to see (or hear) IAF fighters operating with apparent impunity. The GHQ took the matter up with the AHQ and it was resolved that Combat Air Patrols (CAPs) would be flown by the F-16s operating out of Minhas (Kamra) and Sargodha. This arrangement resulted in less on-station time but was safer than operating out of vulnerable Skardu, which had inadequate early warning in the mountainous terrain; its status as a turn-around facility was, however, considered acceptable for its location. A flight of F-7s was, nonetheless, deployed primarily for point defence of the important garrison town of Skardu as well as the air base.

F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.

Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF’s lack of cooperation. Suffice it to say that if the PAF had been included in the initial planning, this anomaly (along with many others) would have emerged as a mitigating factor against the Kargil adventure. It is another matter that the Army high command did not envisage operations ever coming to such a pass. Now, it was almost as if the PAF was to blame for the Kargil venture spiralling out of control.

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.

In sum, the PAF found it expedient not to worry too much about minor border violations and instead, conserve resources for the larger conflagration that was looming. All the same, it gave the enemy no pretext for for retaliation in the face of any provocation, though this latter stance irked some quarters in the Army that were desperate to ‘equal the match’. Might it strike to some that PAF’s restraint in warding off a major conflagration may have been its paramount contribution to the Kargil conflict?

Aftermath

It has emerged that the principal protagonists of the Kargil adventure were the Chief of Army Staff (COAS): General Pervez Musharraf, Commander 10 Corps: Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmed and Commander Force Command Northern Areas (FCNA): Maj Gen Javed Hasan. The trio, in previous ranks and appointments, had been associated with planning during paper exercises on how to wrest control of lost territory in Siachen. The plans were not acceptable to the then Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, to whom the options had been put up for review more than once. She was well-versed in international affairs and, all too intelligent to be taken in by the chicanery. It fell to the wisdom of her successor, Mr Nawaz Sharif, to approve the Army trio’s self-serving presentation.

In an effort to keep the plan secret, which was thought to be the key to its successful initiation, the Army trio took no one into confidence, neither its operational commanders nor the heads of the other services. This, regrettably, resulted in a closed-loop thought process which engendered a string of oversights and failures:
Failure to grasp the wider military and diplomatic ramifications of a limited tactical operation that had the potential of creating strategic effects.

Failure to correctly visualise the response of a powerful enemy to what was, in effect, a major blow in a disputed sector.

Failure to spell out the specific aim to field commanders, who acted on their own to needlessly ‘capture’ territory and expand the scope of the operation to unmanageable levels.

Failure to appreciate the inability of the Army officers to evaluate the capabilities and limitations of an Air Force.

Failure to coordinate contingency plans at the tri-services level.
The flaws in the Kargil Plan that led to these failures were almost palpable and, could not have escaped even a layman’s attention during a cursory examination. The question arises as to why all the planners got blinded to the obvious? Could it be that some of the sub-ordinates had the sight but not the nerve in the face of a powerful superior? In hierarchical organisations, there is precious little room for dissent, but in autocratic ones like the military, it takes more than a spine to disagree, for there are very few commanders who are large enough to allow such liberties. It is out of fear of annoying the superior – which also carries with it manifold penalties and loss of promotion and perks – that the majority decide to go along with the wind.

In a country where democratic traditions have never been deep-rooted, it is no big exposé to point out that the military is steeped in an authoritarian, rather than a consensual approach. To my mind, there is an urgent need to inculcate a more liberal culture that accommodates different points of view – a more lateral approach, so to speak. Disagreement during planning should be systemically tolerated and, not taken as a personal affront. Unfortunately, many in higher ranks seem to think that rank alone confers wisdom and, anyone displaying signs of intelligence at an earlier stage is, somehow, an alien in their ‘star-spangled’ universe.

Kargil, I suspect, like the ‘65 and ‘71 Wars, was a case of not having enough dissenters (‘devil’s advocates’, if you will) during planning, because everyone wanted to agree with the boss. That single reason, I think, was the root cause of most of the failures that were apparent right from the beginning. If this point is understood well, remedial measures towards tolerance and liberalism can follow as a matter of course. Such an organisational milieu, based on honest appraisal and fearless appeal, would be conducive to sound and sensible planning. It would also go a long way in precluding Kargil-like disasters.

Tailpiece

Come change-over time of the Chief of Air Staff in 2001, President Musharraf struck at PAF’s top leadership in what can only be described as implacable action: he passed over all five Air Marshals and appointed the sixth-in-line who was practically an Air Vice Marshal till a few weeks before. While disregarding of seniority in the appointment of service chiefs has historically been endemic in the country, the practice has been seen as breeding nepotism and partiality, besides leaving a trail of conjecture and gossip in the ranks. Given Air Chief Marshal Mehdi’s rather straight-faced and forthright dealings with a somewhat junior General Musharraf particularly during Kargil conflict, there is good reason to believe that the latter decided to appoint a not-very-senior Air Chief whom he could order around like one of his Corps Commanders. (As it turned out, Air Chief Marshal Mus’haf was as solid as his predecessor and gave no quarter when it came to PAF’s interests.) Whatever the reason of bypassing seniority, it was unfortunate that PAF’s precious corporate experience was thrown out so crassly and several careers destroyed. Lives and honour lost in Kargil is another matter.

A in depth analysis well documented.

Slowly pakistani people will understand the generals have done more harm than good to the country in last sixty years. The only good they have done is to themselves.They have been creating this fear of war in the minds of masses to keep themselves in power. Pakistan is a nation preoccupied by war and arms and sensing this India is spending more on defence so that you also spen more on arms and fall apart economically.

Let me tell you friends their is going to be no war now as you are a nation with nuclear warheads.Will any one go to buy pistols when they have tanks with them. I am not saying disband your defence forces the thrust area should be economy and let the civilian govertment run the country.Bring back the Judiciary and strengthen the pillars of democracy.All this tanks and planes will rust and will have to again spend to update them but money spent on education and helath care will benifit you foir a life time.
 
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A in depth analysis well documented.

Slowly pakistani people will understand the generals have done more harm than good to the country in last sixty years. The only good they have done is to themselves.They have been creating this fear of war in the minds of masses to keep themselves in power. Pakistan is a nation preoccupied by war and arms and sensing this India is spending more on defence so that you also spen more on arms and fall apart economically.

Let me tell you friends their is going to be no war now as you are a nation with nuclear warheads.Will any one go to buy pistols when they have tanks with them. I am not saying disband your defence forces the thrust area should be economy and let the civilian govertment run the country.Bring back the Judiciary and strengthen the pillars of democracy.All this tanks and planes will rust and will have to again spend to update them but money spent on education and helath care will benifit you foir a life time.

too much bollywood movies and watching IBN !
 
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i love these random articles by Indian and Americans criticizing Pakistan Air Force and Army.Indian army will always remain in false inlusion

casualties in Kargil


1:4 Pakistan army vs Indian army

Air Defence system shot down 2 IAF well PAF suffer no loss

But you must understand that a victory or a defeat is not subject to the number of casualties. Rather the accomplishments of objectives.

Pakistan withdrew forces from Kargil, and we could not re-gain control of Saichan.

India re-took the Kargil posts and held ground at Saichan.

Kargil was a big big blunder from Pakistan's side.
 
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:hitwall:


My friend,
'65 is history. Its called History for a particular reason.
Ya for you it is a piece of history because you don't like the memory of your airforce being slained by the PAF!!
Donnot forget that we are still capable of repeating the same thing that you call 'history'.
Anyway, today the situation on the ground and in the air is different. Agreed that PAF is going through modernization phase, but then so is the IAF.
No the PAF is not in the phase of getting modernized. It has got what it require to be modern. If you think getting a few SUs will tilt the ratio in your favor then i must say you are profoundly mistaken!

The report mentions that PAF could not do anything for:
- it was an illegal 'adventure' by the PA
- PAF was not taken into confidence at the planning and execution stages
i have amply replied to this intuation in my first post, go read it!
- involvement of the PAF would be tantamount to declaring war on India which Pakistan could not afford.
Ahan! what a wishful thinking.
Can india afford a war with Pakistan?
You did have forgotten '65!!
Dont live in your past. Past glories make good memories but then thats all to them.
We like to learn from our past. i'll advice you too to do the same, or '65s can be repeated again!!

And BTW, IAF a/c are not to be kept only in hangers or airshows, we choose the time and place. Its a very simple logic in war. You choose where and when, if ever, to strike. Therein lies your strength! Keep the enemy guessing/frustrated!
Het kiddo! Don't teach me tactics and strategy!!!
But striking the so called 'targets' was not a feasible option for very obvious reasons - to avoid war!
~ Moriarty
So why the hassle!! Why all that BS.
i know why, just show that you were weak and actually not prepared for war!!
 
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A in depth analysis well documented.
Thanks for the appreciation but what about its being well documented...how did this happen??
Slowly pakistani people will understand the generals have done more harm than good to the country in last sixty years.
Slowly india will also understand that the same Generals have striken india with such a fear that india can now just whine about fighting a war with Pakistan and do no more!!!
The only good they have done is to themselves.They have been creating this fear of war in the minds of masses to keep themselves in power. Pakistan is a nation preoccupied by war and arms and sensing this India is spending more on defence so that you also spen more on arms and fall apart economically.
Thats what the crooks being paid by CIA and RAW inside Pakistan has always been saying.Tell me something new!!!

Let me tell you friends their is going to be no war now as you are a nation with nuclear warheads.
Hell ya! we are a nation with nukes!! Any problems with that?? Oh ya who else will have a problem with that. And war, yes no one (not only india but others too) can't think of having war with Pakistan now. So go fight the insurgency within india.
I am not saying disband your defence forces
WTF!!!
the thrust area should be economy and let the civilian govertment run the country.Bring back the Judiciary and strengthen the pillars of democracy.
Thanks for the advice, but none taken!!!!
All this tanks and planes will rust and will have to again spend to update them but money spent on education and helath care will benifit you foir a life time.
Please convey the same advice to your Defence Minister!!
 
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It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.


F7s Mirages 3/5 & A5 represent 85% of PAFS frontline combat planes EVEN TODAY....

170F7P/PG

150 MIRAGE 3/5

40 A5

44 F16

(08 JF17 Thunders going thru trials)

THIS IS 10 YEARS AFTER KARGIL

ICE,

At the time of the Kargil conflict, we had not upgraded the F-7P/PGs with the Grifo-7 radars. Secondly, the Mirages were also not equipped with Grifo-M3 which is a better AI radar than the APG-66 on our F-16s. We did not have PGM delivery capability on the Mirages (ROSEII/III) either.

So things have changed and will do so even more in the near future. However I am in agreement with the overall gist of the article. You cannot start things off without realizing all the eventualities.

The issue on the PA side was simply one of considering this to be another episode in the overall Siachen conflict. The Army's appreciation was that like Indian interdiction of Neelum Valley, they too could carry out limited incursions. This was the logic upon which this operation was based. There are considerable lessons to be learned on both sides.
 
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Kargil was a big big blunder from Pakistan's side.
If you call the following blunder then Kargil was a blunder:-
- Pakistan gave india a message that Pak militry is no more a defensive sort of a force, it has gone capabale of giving a bloody nose.

- Pakistan gave india a msg to india that Pakistan can take offensive at the time and place of own choosing all along indo-Pak border.

- Pakistan forced india or i must say created such a fear and panic within indian military that it was forced to 'vacate' the 'key' places (where india expects large scale offensives in case of war from Pakistan) and moved all of its artillery to the Kargil Sector thus leaving those places void of all sorts of fire power (to include airforce), therefore giving Pakistan a superb opportunity to take up a RIPOSTE and creating a larger dent inside india without even putting all the resources that are actually required for the said task.
What a stupid decision. i don't know what your military planners were thinking. It was just like leaving a house open to the public so that they can loot it at their will.
 
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:hitwall:


My friend,
'65 is history. Its called History for a particular reason.

Anyway, today the situation on the ground and in the air is different. Agreed that PAF is going through modernization phase, but then so is the IAF.

The report mentions that PAF could not do anything for:
- it was an illegal 'adventure' by the PA
- PAF was not taken into confidence at the planning and execution stages
- involvement of the PAF would be tantamount to declaring war on India which Pakistan could not afford.

Pakistan then could not sustain a bigger conflict - remember your economic situation and the sanctions which crippled many aircraft, both in IAF and PAF. It would also have drawn world's condemnation much earlier than what happened subsequently.

Dont live in your past. Past glories make good memories but then thats all to them.

And BTW, IAF a/c are not to be kept only in hangers or airshows, we choose the time and place. Its a very simple logic in war. You choose where and when, if ever, to strike. Therein lies your strength! Keep the enemy guessing/frustrated!

PS: Trolls - plz dont feed off this post, and neither am I underestimating PAF. But striking the so called 'targets' was not a feasible option for very obvious reasons - to avoid war!


~ Moriarty

It was not an "illegal" adventure. Its the LoC and not International Boundary (IB). Keep that in mind. Both Pakistan and India have claims over that area. If you consider actions across the LoC to be illegal, then so is all the stuff that goes on at Siachen.

I am not suggesting that there should be any pushing and prodding across the LoC, but want to make sure that people understand the difference between the LoC and the IB.
 
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Pakistan is a nation preoccupied by war and arms
I could care less about India in my daily life. Us Pakistanis live our lives no different than Indians. If you think that Pakistanis are preoccupied with war and other BS like this, then I would just like to invite you to Pakistan to see it for yourself.

It may make sense for you to read this article about India by a Pakistani who is preoccupied with war :lol: This one does not seem to be making sweeping statements about all Indians. By the way, I loved the anecdotal stuff.

Our Trip to India
Me and my wife Samar came back after an incredibly fruitful trip to India, (in April 2008) which we shall surely relish for a long time. We got a chance to visit virtually every monument and landmark in Delhi, Jaipur and Agra. Visit to the latter city placed us amongst the privileged few “….them as has seen the Taj…” (Lear). We enjoyed all the sights and sounds of the enchanting places we chose to visit. We were well looked after by our hosts who must number several hundred, as we seemed to be everyone's guests, going by the warmth with which we were received everywhere. There was no untoward incident anywhere and we felt safe and very much at home. For an ex-Air Force officer, it was also quite something to swap the aeronautical targeting maps of yester-years with tourist maps and, romp around in India’s heartland! Here are some snippets of our visit:

Roots

The high point of our trip was the search for our roots in Jalandhar. First we went to my wife Samar's grandparents' (nana's) house in the city. It was easy to locate, despite some place & road name changes. The shopkeepers of the locality known as Guru Bazaar started filling us up with refreshments, the sooner word got around that someone from Lahore was amidst. The owner of the house Jagdeep Singh Thakur took us around after another round of refreshments. We saw a marble plaque on the front facade which read “Shams Manzil”, with the grandfather's name (Rehmat-ullah) and the date of construction 1331 AH (1909 AD).

An aside to the visit was my phone call, later in the day, to Thakur, requesting him to let us have the marble plaque. He surprised us with an immediate response by saying that it was really our house and we could collect the plaque next morning! We visited the next day again and collected the plaque which weighed 15 kilos! Carrying such a heavy item in suitcases that were already exploding wasn't a good idea, so we went to some marble cutting factories in the outskirts of the city, to have the plaque sliced across, but their suggestion to send it to Rajasthan for such drastic cutting got us to rethink the whole thing. We decided to take a chance with the Indian Customs at Wagah. The problem was that a plaque carrying Urdu script was sure to be construed as an antique from a Mughal monument. We had photographs to prove our point and also, we could have the Customs officials talk to the house owner if needed. But when we converted the Islamic-era date indicated on the plaque, we were horrified to discover that it was 99 years old and, we were precariously close to violating the Antiquities Act which penalises someone for taking out items older than 100 years! In the event, nothing happened at Wagah, the babu wished us a happy end to our journey and.....voila..... the plaque has come home!

The next stop was at Nakodar where we went looking for my nana's house. At a traffic crossing we asked a passer-by if he knew of a settlement known as Baupur. When he told us that everybody in Baupur, except one family, had moved out to a new colony by the roadside, we were crestfallen. He said that the sole family lived in a house that is known as 'Inspector ki kothi'. Suddenly our ears lit up, for my nana Badr-ud-din was a Police Inspector who served in Delhi but somehow, chose this place for his house in 1935. We drove off to the one-family settlement of 'old' Baupur which was just 3 km away. The sight of a massive banyan tree seemed to confirm my mother's memory of the place. We were received by a very genial but surprised Gurdial Singh, the 'numberdar' of Baupur. When we told him that we were probably in our nana's house, his eyes moistened and he became emotional. Then started a round of lassi, followed by nimbu-pani and tea. Lunch was ordered but the lady of the house was spared the hassle after great pleading. Elders from the nearby colony were summoned and they started narrating tales about my nana's family ("Inspector sahib was so tall that you could wear his shirt and there was no need to wear trousers!!") They narrated how Inspector sahib had once killed the notorious dacoit Bhajna in the hills of Himachal, and was awarded two squares of land for the deed. A nearby grave of a Muslim saint by the name of Billay Shah was pointed out by Gurdial Singh, which was later confirmed by our elders. Gurdial still lights a ‘diya’ on the grave every Thursday out of respect for someone who loved God. Later, partition and its horrors came under discussion. While we were at it, I brought up a long-forgotten bit of lore in my mother's family about a pretty girl who had been snatched by the Sikhs as the families migrated. The girl was 17 then and her family was known to my mother's. Not having the slightest clue about anything more than this, I was surprised when Gurdial Singh pulled out his cell phone and called up someone to reach there immediately. After about 30 minutes, a youngish-looking chap arrived and claimed that he knew of this incident. His auntie (‘tai’) was the daughter of the kidnapped girl whose name was Rehmat bibi at the time of partition. Before we could understand what was going on, this fellow also pulled out his cell phone and asked someone to reach there immediately as there were visitors from Pakistan. Half an hour later a middle-aged woman and her 30-ish son arrived. We were told that this lady was Surinder Kaur, daughter of Rehmat bibi!! Rehmat had been married off to the kidnapper's son and, over the years had five daughters, the eldest being Surinder. Now this was filmi stuff, too surreal to digest. Surinder then broke into tears and hugged Samar for several minutes. We told her that her uncle Ibrahim (Rehmat bibi's brother) was alive and we would put her in contact with him when we got back. We took many pictures and hope to pass these to her relatives in Pakistan. Surinder told us that while her father's family kept her mother with a lot of affection and care, she lived a sad life and often cried. We learnt that Rehmat bibi had been contacted by her brother sometime in the fifties and, he asked his sister to return to Pakistan. Rehmat bibi refused as she thought that there would be no future for an ex-wife of a Sikh and, that her daughters too would have no prospects. It was such a moving tale that women were weeping, to be soon followed by the ‘numberdar’ Gurdial Singh and even our taxi driver. Phone numbers and addresses were exchanged and leave was taken on a sad note. It was, indeed, an incredible visit to Baupur.

Our next stop was the settlement of Bagga near Shahkot where my grandfather (dada), Muhammad Bakhsh, used to live. The place has changed completely and there are mostly new houses except for a few old ones. We were put in-charge of a 90-year old village elder by the name of Kesar Singh. We had no more clue than what my father remembered about his house being on the highest ground in the locality. Surely, Kesar Singh knew every mound and cranny, so he walked us to what is still known as “patwari’s kothi” in what was the Muslim half of the village, pre-partition. Not much remains of the structure except a room and a barnyard in front of it, but the actual residence of the present ‘patwari’ is adjacent to the old one. We took a lot of pictures there too. Discussion with Kesar Singh revealed some interesting bits of history as he seemed to remember my grandfather’s brother Ali Muhammad very well. When I showed Kesar Singh’s picture to my father on my return, he immediately recognised ‘tarkhaan’ (carpenter) Kesar Singh.

We were also lucky to drop by my mother’s school near Nakodar, where we were welcomed by the headmistress and teachers, who were quite amused to have us Lahoris in their midst.

I had been planning the trip to our ancestral homes for quite some time. I must say that Google Earth was a big help, besides the bits and pieces of trivia handed down by the elders. We were able to chart out our routes with the help of satellite maps and some excellent Indian Punjab websites which were a great help. Our taxi driver Bal Kishan was the key figure who was as excited as we were in searching for our roots.

Our relatives, specially the elders are absolutely enthralled by our staggering finds and, for some time now, it is mostly heritage and roots that we have been discussing.

Taj as We Saw It

Determined not to follow the hackneyed ‘visual’ cliché of the Taj as seen in the stereotype frontal images, we approached the monument cautiously. After a four-hour taxi ride over a highway studded with the most stubborn truck drivers, we arrived in Agra of the Mughals. Now, a disorderly and dirty city with bubbling sewers and broken roads, it was only the Taj Mahal that beckoned weary travellers like us. The ubiquitous touts, so often seen chasing tourists in the sub-continent, were busy beckoning in a cacophony all too familiar. (Guide chahye? Photo khichwayee ga? Acha dikhaen ge sab kuch, ispeshal … and so on). As we approached the ‘ticket ghar’ an overpowering stench started to numb whatever remained of our sniffers. Litter, camel droppings and rubble were equally sore on the eyes. We wondered if our senses would be up to speed for the impending study of the world’s most beautiful building. At the tickets counter we got Rs 200 concession for being a SAARC member compared to the ‘goras’ who are charged Rs 700 a peep. Locals pay Rs 35.

The Taj complex essentially consists of the imposing entrance portal, the beautifully layed lawns and fountains, two identical structures on either side of the Taj (one a mosque, the other a ‘mehman-khana’), a museum and the glorious mausoleum itself. Judgements as to the beauty of the building have been made over the last 375 years and, I know of only one bigot of a philosopher called Aldous Huxley who described everything about the Taj as ugly. We had no preconceived notions and saw no harm in agreeing with the multitude about its beauty. The structure is, indeed, immensely attractive and pleasing to the eyes when seen as a whole, ie together with the large expanse of gardens and fountains as well as the minarets. Balance and symmetry stand out clearly. The inlay work in marble and calligraphy is extremely fine and exquisite. The minarets particularly seem to act as sentinels, much like the military guards at modern tombs. I felt, however, that the minarets could have been better embellished for they seem somewhat drab as far as decorative elements are concerned. No inlays, no calligraphy, no trimmings --- one gets the impression that the minarets were done at the end when two decades of drudgery had taken a toll on the workers as well as supervisors and, they wanted to get over with it. Well, that critique should suffice as I am no expert purveyor of fine art and architecture, really. Personally, I would lay more emphasis on the concept than the structure itself. Might one suggest that the Taj is one of the most beautiful funerary tributes ever?

Some Anecdotal Observations About India

The first thing that caught our eye on the way to Amritsar airport was a sari-clad woman scooterist complete with a helmet and a handkerchief for a mask. Then a bevy of college girls went scooting past on their way home after classes. This was in stark contrast to Pakistan where, we had heard a few days earlier, of the first-ever batch of eight female Lahore Police motorcyclists who had graduated and supposedly made history of sorts. In India it is a not at all an unusual sight to see women scooterists and cyclists on the road, specially in small towns where public transport is not as good as cities like Delhi.

At Amritsar airport we keenly read a prominently displayed notice which exempted only 27 key government functionaries including the President, Prime Minister, Supreme Court Judges, Governors, Chief Ministers and Federal & State Ministers from security checking. The list did NOT include members of Lok Sabha, nor did it include Service Chiefs of Staff!

VIP culture as we have it, is non existent in Delhi as well as other cities that we went to. Display of arms is strictly prohibited and private guards usually have just a baton. Only one shooter in a group of guards is authorised to keep a firearm with limited rounds. All government officials travel in the busted up and ugly looking ‘Ambassador’ a copy of Morris Oxford of the fifties. This includes the Prime Minister, Ministers and Service Chiefs. It is also not uncommon to see even Wg Cdrs and Lt Cols going to work on scooters.

Indians are not ostentatious like we are. During our two weeks in Delhi, Agra, Jaipur and Jalandhar, I saw just 5-6 odd Mercedes, no BMWs and no sports cars. Everybody drives a Maruti, Tata Indica, Suzuki Swift or scooters and motor bikes.

Indians dress up very simply and their women are not given to gloss and glitter like ours. Women dress up in saris, shalwar/churidar-kamiz and jeans-tees in about equal numbers. Men are mostly clad in trousers and shirts. While I am on dresses, I must say that the glamorous sari is not what you see in films and on TV. In real life, most sari-wearers are quite fat, but the wonder is how brazenly they show their guts (pardon the pun)!

We found the average Indian rather docile compared to our adrenaline-high countrymen. With the general level of education being better than ours, and respect for authority evidently greater, it seemed that civility was coming of age in India. The attitude of shopkeepers was very welcoming and friendly and, they spent every effort to rope in even the most die-hard window shoppers.

We witnessed an incredible sight during our early morning train trip from Delhi to Jalandhar. On both sides of the track, one vast open air toilet ran for miles and miles. There was no consternation as pigs and dogs rummaged around and trains whistled past. It was also sad to see humans degraded to the level of animals. But that is India. As the train rattled past Panipat, we were reminded of Emperor Babar’s disdain for such things Hindustani!!

Environment-consciousness is strong in India. All Delhi buses are on CNG; so are rickshaws. Parks in Delhi are numerous where families and dating couples can cavort without fear of molestation. Trees abound in the city and municipal laws prohibit cutting even a branch without permission. Most cars are parked outside on the streets and, as a consequence, bird droppings are a nuisance to car-owners. There are NO billboards in Delhi and Jaipur. Jalandhar has some, but small-sized ones. None of the mega-sized ones that have utterly spoiled Lahore’s skyline.

Active mosques are managed by the Muslims, but their state leaves a lot to be desired. The Jamia Masjid, Delhi is a pale reflection of its counterpart in Lahore, largely due to mismanagement and corruption by the former’s executive body. The Archaeological Survey of India has, however done a good job in preserving all Muslim monuments, understandably, as they are magnets for tourists and bring in substantial revenue. Muslims are nearly 50% in Old Delhi area, but unfortunately, their condition is pathetic. Mostly they are rickshaw pullers, carpenters, car mechanics; the rest are content with being idlers, waiting for better times by the Will of Allah.


&#169; M KAISER TUFAIL <-- Hopefully this will give you a hint as to who the author is.
 
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nice, he seems to have come away with positive impressions about india.

VIP culture as we have it, is non existent in Delhi as well as other cities that we went to. Display of arms is strictly prohibited and private guards usually have just a baton. Only one shooter in a group of guards is authorised to keep a firearm with limited rounds

this was one reason that the bombay terrorist attack suceeded. i guess if someone tried it in newyork, he would have a lot of people firing at him
 
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this was one reason that the bombay terrorist attack suceeded. i guess if someone tried it in newyork, he would have a lot of people firing at him

Unless you absolutely have to, you shouldn't lose that aspect of your society.

Once weapons become ingrained in culture, its very hard to remove them, whether in the US or Pakistan.

The focus should be on better intelligence and preemption, not on having gun toting guards everywhere.
 
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It was not an "illegal" adventure. Its the LoC and not International Boundary (IB). Keep that in mind. Both Pakistan and India have claims over that area. If you consider actions across the LoC to be illegal, then so is all the stuff that goes on at Siachen.

I am not suggesting that there should be any pushing and prodding across the LoC, but want to make sure that people understand the difference between the LoC and the IB.

Hi there,
I said illegal for the sole reason that, AFAIK, there was a tacit understanding between the forces that posts along the LoC would be vacated in winter and reoccupied in spring with each others' knowledge. Now breaking that understanding would be illegal I suppose. I guess we also have a similar understanding with the Chinese forces on our eastern fronts.

And yes India did a very similar adventure in Siachen, but the difference is India solidified its hold on the territory while, Kargil- though a brilliant idea- was a total failure. It would have been another story if Pakistan had used legitimate forces and included the PAF in the planning and execution of this plan. But I would still doubt the outcome would be any different.

~ Moriarty
 
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It was not an "illegal" adventure. Its the LoC and not International Boundary (IB). Keep that in mind. Both Pakistan and India have claims over that area. If you consider actions across the LoC to be illegal, then so is all the stuff that goes on at Siachen.

I am not suggesting that there should be any pushing and prodding across the LoC, but want to make sure that people understand the difference between the LoC and the IB.

In your view then would it justify if India sends its troops to occupy positions already taken by Pakistan? Or perhaps that India strike at terror camps at ***? Because its not illegal, its not an IB?

There is legality and then there is morality. Pakistan tried to occupy places which were held by India, not empty land.
 
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Ya for you it is a piece of history because you don't like the memory of your airforce being slained by the PAF!!
Donnot forget that we are still capable of repeating the same thing that you call 'history'.

You did have forgotten '65!!

We like to learn from our past. i'll advice you too to do the same, or '65s can be repeated again!!

Of course my friend, we did not forget the '65 defeat.
Now if you can strain those dormant process in the gray matter and get along a little further in history, just 6 years later in '71.....:guns:
Just so you remember!

~ Moriarty
 
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