Karataka: Bajrang Dal activists attack Christian prayer house, 7 injured

[janon]

Things are not that simple.

We have no first amendment in India where the difference between speech and physical violence is clearly demarcated.The first amendment is not about demarcating between speech and violence. It is about separation of church and state. "Congress shall make no law..."

In India the freedom of speech comes with reasonable clauses and not in an absolute way.I made it clear that it was my personal opinion of how things should be.

But I figure that applies to well meaning criticism based on facts and that points out the social evils..For example attacking the caste system wont be considered as a criticism of Hinduism..Not today, no. But a long time back, people who attacked the caste system WERE construed as attacking Hinduism, and violently dealt with. Now that such people have managed to change people's thinking, now everybody agrees that it is OK to do so. So you see, instead of some people deciding what is "well meaning criticism", and what is not, all criticism should be free. 200 years back, your example would not have been considered well meaning, even if it was. That's why freedom of speech should be absolute. Think about it.but a fringe groups standing near a temple shouting "y'all pagans gonna end up in hell, y'all practise a demonic, satanic cult" and propagating hate literature to the same extent cannot be equated with freedom of speech in India. In that case the line between words and actions get very blurred.As I said, I was stating my personal opinion. I know that somebody who does that can be arrested in India.

Moreover India has its own fragile social conditions and balance that is being upset by the rampant conversions and these are knee-jerk reactions to the same. As I said, unless we are willing to treat the root cause, there is no point trying to treat the symptoms only.If they had a legitimate grievance, they should have taken it to court. If they attack people physically, they are committing a crime. They will be arrested. And that's not just my personal opinion, that is the law.

Responses in blue.

 

[KS]

The first amendment is not about demarcating between speech and violence. It is about separation of church and state. "Congress shall make no law..."

Pastor Terry Jones or Sam Bacile are protected by the First Amendment to do what they did. In India they will not be. They will be arrested under Sec 295A Sec 153A immediately.

Morever the "congress shall make no law.." also does not apply to India..we have so many laws passed by the Parliament on religious issues.

If they had a legitimate grievance, they should have taken it to court. If they attack people physically, they are committing a crime. They will be arrested. And that's not just my personal opinion, that is the law.

No one said they did not do a crime or they should be ignored..but concentrating on them alone and not on the issue that causes this is not going to solve the problem..it will only further fuel the problem with one section thinking they can get away with it and another section feel discriminated against. These groups like BD thrive only on the insecurity..the one-sided action and criticism is only going to increase their popularity on the ground.

As I said, I was stating my personal opinion. I know that somebody who does that can be arrested in India.

I made it clear that it was my personal opinion of how things should be.

I respect your personal opinion..but what Im saying is looking at one half of the issue while ignoring the other part will not solve the problem as a whole.

 

[janon]

No one said they did not do a crime or they should be ignored..but concentrating on them alone and not on the issue that causes this is not going to solve the problem..it will only further fuel the problem with one section thinking they can get away with it and another section feel discriminated against. These groups like BD thrive only on the insecurity..the one-sided action and criticism is only going to increase their popularity on the ground.





I respect your personal opinion..but what Im saying is looking at one half of the issue while ignoring the other part will not solve the problem as a whole.

You are not mentioning the other half of the problem. This particular half is very clear - these men went and physically attacked some Christians.

If there is another half to it, that will have to be properly expressed, and then taken to court (or police, depending on what the problem is), and argued there. But I cannot comment on the other half of the problem, because it hasn't been formulated yet.

Also, we don't need to automatically assume that these men did it because of so and so. They haven't spoken out in their defence yet, and already we are speculating as to what their motives were. Let them try to defend themselves in court, and then we will know the other half of the story, if there is one. And these men will still go to prison for what they did.

But if there is another side to it, where the Christians in question are doing anything illegal, then yes, by all means, prosecute them.

As of now, I can only comment on the acts of these goons.

 

[KRAIT]

And mr modi as gujrat CM?

Dear you don't know what was Gujarat and what really happened.
What you know about Gujarat is not the reality.

But only one truth is that innocent Muslims and Hindus suffered for sake of 6 crore Gujaratis.

I f you want I can tell you the real story. What was Gujarat before Modi and what happened after. ?


But for that you need to listen to me carefully without prejudice,

 

[KS]

You are not mentioning the other half of the problem. This particular half is very clear - these men went and physically attacked some Christians.

I think I made myself very clear in not supporting either of the actions. That includes the actions of the BD too..That is on my personal level..but when people pinpoint only the BD (not necessarily you) then it becomes very difficult in selling the story to others.

If there is another half to it, that will have to be properly expressed, and then taken to court (or police, depending on what the problem is), and argued there. But I cannot comment on the other half of the problem, because it hasn't been formulated yet.

Properly expressed is a very loaded term. And I have already mentioned that why proper channels are not so proper

from previous post Whatever steps the govt takes will be portrayed as persecution of minorities by a BJP govt by a section of intellectuals, media and political parties and hence the govt takes the safe route out by turning a blind eye..this inaction from the Govt leads to a counter-mobilisation from the majority community who try to redress the issue themselves..

That is the political reality in India..everything is subject to those considerations. hence the govt chooses the safe way out by ignoring the problem and instructs the police too to not take such issue seriously..

 

[Koovie]

The conversions by the fringe non-denominational groups are upsetting the social balance in the coastal Karnataka region..

The govt must step in to crack on these foreign funded groups which create a flourishing ground for dumb groups like BD.

---

Plus, I cant help notice the irony..

Almost 200 Hindu homes were burnt and hundreds were made homeless by muslims in West Bengal..no media group carried a report and those who did carried reports like "one group" attacks "another group" without naming anyone.

But the moment some Hindu does something it all in gory details plastered over the front pages..



As long as groups like SDPI, CFI, PFI etc roam around with govt protection, groups like BD will be there..

Also unless the root cause of the issue,which is these non-denominational groups, spreading hatred against Hinduism is stopped, today it might be Bajrang Dal, tomorrow it might be Bheem Dal, day after tomorrow Bholenath Dal..Banning them without addressing the root issue wont solve a single thing..

So you have nothing against their violent means to achieve their goals? You have nothing against the fact that they physically assault people because of ther faith, or because they see an unmarried couple???

 

[joekrish]

So you have nothing against their violent means to achieve their goals? You have nothing against the fact that they physically assault people because of ther faith, or because they see an unmarried couple???

Nobody sane would support what has happened and I'm sure the view of @KS is the same. Religious tolerance is not a one way ticket, it's not about forcefull convertions alone, it is the language and methods the Church's use to convert. Hate speeches are very common in some of the Church's and specially when it comes to convertions. Until the Church does not take a strong stand on such issues problems are bound to happen in the form of BD or any other name and Turing a blind eye to it is as big a mistake as committing the mistake.

 

[Spring Onion]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/social...emy-mob-burns-100-christian-homes-lahore.html

Beta Supraco yeh ache se pad lo
aur koi mara toh nahi na injured hi huei hai

Apne Pakistan koh phele dekh lo Mere

Lagta hai Supraco ke Rocket ke tara tera demag bhi Drawing board phe hee hai

Karnataka: Bajrang Dal activists attack Christian prayer house, 7 injured
Saturday March 09, 2013

Press Trust of India

Bangalore: Seven persons were injured when they were allegedly assaulted by Bajrang Dal activists during an attack on a Christian prayer house at Moodubelle in Udupi district, on suspicion that conversion activities were being carried out there, police said on Saturday.

The attack was carried out on Friday night after the activists had lodged a police complaint against a man, accusing him of indulging in conversion, Udupi Superintendent of Police Boralingaiah said.

A group of Bajrang Dal activists barged into the man's residence at Moodubelle, also a prayer house, and assaulted the people gathered there, he said, adding, 19 of them had been arrested. Senior officials, including the IGP (western range) Pratap Reddy visited the place.

A group of Bajrang Dal activists barged into the man's residence at Moodubelle, also a prayer house, and assaulted the people gathered there.

The coastal districts of Udupi and Mangalore had in the past seen attacks on churches triggered by suspicion that they were carrying out conversion.

Karnataka: Bajrang Dal activists attack Christian prayer house, 7 injured- IBN Karnataka- IBN South-IBNLive

Salaam to all the Muslims,



This is really shocking and shameful. Don't know when it will end.

I just wish for world peace.

Salaam to all the Muslims.

 

[anant_s]

Salam/Namastey to all humans:

Now thats a Gentleman's Talk

 

[Marxist]

no media outrage over Congress leader Nooruddin arrested for forcible conversion of a Hindu girl and WB incidents but this case got enough coverage ,Indian media is always anti Hindu

on topic

Karnataka must introduce strong anti conversion law to prevent such imcidents

 

[Spring Onion]

no media outrage over Congress leader Nooruddin arrested for forcible conversion of a Hindu girl and WB incidents but this case got enough coverage ,Indian media is always anti Hindu

on topic

Karnataka must introduce strong anti conversion law to prevent such imcidents

))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

 

[Mritunjaya]

That's sophistry.

The only legitimate cause in which a person can use violence is in self defence. If these people had reasons for doing what they did, and if it was because of some illegal acitivity by a church, then they should have taken recourse to the law. They should have gone to the police or law courts, not taken upon themselves to deliver justice.

Unless they were acting in self defence, they committed a crime, and they ought to be punished.

You have used the right word 'Sophistry'.

There is a section of the Hindus that see the continues attack on their religion as a very serious and real threat to their way of life. A lot of hindus expect that after Independence they would finally get to live in a land that respected their values systems and way of life. But the very leadership that was successful in fighting against the british and survived it, were so aliniated from their hindu roots and understanding the essence of hindu philosophies that they set into motion a serious anti-Hindu polity that continues to gain momentum and has shown no signs of slowing down. The threat to Hindu value system and way of life has only increased with a majority of Hindus today totally ignorant about what makes them Hindus and blindly looking to the west (wikipedia, encylopedia etc..) to understand their religion and society.

When a thief gets caught in India he gets beaten up by the public......a rapist gets beaten up too.....sometimes beaten to death. A sophisticated response to a crime is still a long way off. That is not to say vigilante approach is to be encouraged ...but in a state where the polity has failed the provide adequate coverage of the law and security to the people, vigilante justice is the unfortunate reality stemming from survival instinct. Mumbai police are used to killing the underworld in 'encounters' because the courts have failed to provide justice to the people of Mumbai.

You can equate this to the birth of Batman in Gotham city.

Try to see this attack in the proper context rather than seeking a sophisticated approach in a country where people still wash their @$$ with their left hand.

The evangelist uses a lot of unethical and immoral approach to convert the impoverish Hindu and they are treated by the vigilante group like BD in the same way. This is not a justification ...only a rational explanation.

 

[KS]

So you have nothing against their violent means to achieve their goals? You have nothing against the fact that they physically assault people because of ther faith, or because they see an unmarried couple???

Read carefully.

Nowhere I supported the acts of the BD guys.

I was only saying both they and the fringe evangelist groups that are disturbing peace in the coastal karnataka region who are encouraging the rise of the guys like BD need to be condemned and Govt must crack down on both of them

We dont need BD and similarly we dont need these evangelist groups. But as long as the media groups and govt turn a blin eye to the evangelist groups, then groups like BD will continue to find supporters.

 

[Mritunjaya]

Read carefully.

Nowhere I supported the acts of the BD guys.

I was only saying both they and the fringe evangelist groups that are disturbing peace in the coastal karnataka region who are encouraging the rise of the guys like BD need to be condemned and Govt must crack down on both of them

We dont need BD and similarly we dont need these evangelist groups. But as long as the media groups and govt turn a blin eye to the evangelist groups, then groups like BD will continue to find supporters.

People will see what they want to to see ...hear what they want to hear.

 

[Jayanta]

Karnataka: Bajrang Dal activists attack Christian prayer house, 7 injured
Saturday March 09, 2013

Press Trust of India

Bangalore: Seven persons were injured when they were allegedly assaulted by Bajrang Dal activists during an attack on a Christian prayer house at Moodubelle in Udupi district, on suspicion that conversion activities were being carried out there, police said on Saturday.

The attack was carried out on Friday night after the activists had lodged a police complaint against a man, accusing him of indulging in conversion, Udupi Superintendent of Police Boralingaiah said.

A group of Bajrang Dal activists barged into the man's residence at Moodubelle, also a prayer house, and assaulted the people gathered there, he said, adding, 19 of them had been arrested. Senior officials, including the IGP (western range) Pratap Reddy visited the place.

A group of Bajrang Dal activists barged into the man's residence at Moodubelle, also a prayer house, and assaulted the people gathered there.

The coastal districts of Udupi and Mangalore had in the past seen attacks on churches triggered by suspicion that they were carrying out conversion.

Karnataka: Bajrang Dal activists attack Christian prayer house, 7 injured- IBN Karnataka- IBN South-IBNLive

Salaam to all the Muslims,



This is really shocking and shameful. Don't know when it will end.

I just wish for world peace.

Salaam to all the Muslims.