K4 SLBM 3000 KM Range- First Video and Offical Acknowledgement

[shree835]

If true, then congratulations to India.

Hopefully India will use its power for the positive in the world, and would not become another Western stooge in the region with selfish agenda, barbaric intent of maximum power, and no principles.

For us our national interest is first ...

 

[IND151]

 

[The Deterrent]

@The Deterrent

Anything of this sort in Pakistani plans?

A nuclear-capable intermediate range (3000km+) ballistic missile with MIRVed warheads deployed on submarines?

That will transform Pakistan's military power.

Why can't we work on something like this? Lack of scientific/technical expertise? International Pressure? No funding?

A brief-detailed answer would be appreciated.

No, not yet. While the capability is certainly desirable, it is not something extremely necessary, and there are work-arounds available. We simply don't have enough resources for something we don't really need at this moment.

Technical expertise: The technical potential is there, which means that given enough time & resources, we can develop something like that.

International Pressure: This term simply does not applies to Pakistan when it comes to development of strategic weapons. Pakistan developed nukes, BMs, CMs, tactical nukes and is developing more stuff in the face of international pressure. If a weapon is deemed necessary by the strategic forces, rest assured it will be developed, produced and deployed.

Funding: Yes, this is a huge problem, many programs are suffering delays because of lesser funds. Therefore more importance is being given to development of cost-effective solutions, such as SLCMs.

 

[hunter_hunted]

Emmmmmmmmmm Bad-azzz I see Bad-azzz

 

[amardeep mishra]

Technical expertise: The technical potential is there, which means that given enough time & resources, we can develop something like that.

HI,@The Deterrent

I agree with all the three points you've mentioned in your post above,however i tend to dis-agree with this one.Now the reason why i dis-agree has to do with a lot of factors.I would try to summarize this as briefly as i can possibly get-
1)For an SLBM,or even for sufficiently sophisticated land based IRBM with MIRV,pakistan would need a throw weight of AT LEAST 2 tonnes(3 tonnes if they're aiming for something like 6-8 MIRVs).And to be honest,i firmly believe in published research papers,journals and seminars- none of which indicate that pakistan has designed superior solid propellant and improved grain characteristics that would help them achieve that kind of throw weight.

2)Second aspect is how do pakistani research establishment(equivalent of DRDL/ASL/RCI) propose to develop composites to replace maraging steel(if at all pakistan uses maraging steel in structural assemblies)? And what are the research labs that are working in composites,especially the metallurgical processes- like epoxy resin moulding and allied proesses that yield requisite composites that can be used in place of maraging steel

3)Thirdly ,what labs in pakistan are working on MEMS based INS? I mean to be brutally honest,i have heard samar mubarakmand making tall claims about their "navigation" system but sadly Unlike his DRDO counterpart he never ever explained or even published a research paper on the guidance scheme! i mean tell me frankly if you have read a research paper on pakistani "designed" MEMS based LRG or FOG? or other micro-eletronics- something that you can get readily on DRDO's publication list!
Thirdly pakistan never organizes big seminars on ballistics missiles where industry and academia get together to pour their ideas like the IISc and IIT bombay seminars(regularly organized by DRDO) - these are the things that are the indicators of "research culture" in pakistan
I just hope you dont resort to the age old pakistani cliche- "it's all top secret","pakistan doesnt produce research publications and patents in these fields" and so on..!

Lack of scientific/technical expertise? International Pressure? No funding?

I personally feel it is lack of technical expertise and funding!I mean look,we can come up with all the fancy reasons but the ground realities in missile development require solid research in metallurgy,MEMS based guidance and the industrial maturity of the country

 

[IND151]

GOI's 1st official acknowledgement of the 'K4' long-range submarine launched nuke-capable missile | Page 3

Telescopic Aerospike

It can be seen in CGI of AGNI 6 SLBM

 

[The Deterrent]

1)For an SLBM,or even for sufficiently sophisticated land based IRBM with MIRV,pakistan would need a throw weight of AT LEAST 2 tonnes(3 tonnes if they're aiming for something like 6-8 MIRVs).And to be honest,i firmly believe in published research papers,journals and seminars- none of which indicate that pakistan has designed superior solid propellant and improved grain characteristics that would help them achieve that kind of throw weight.

Negative, the throw-weight depends exclusively on the individual masses of the RVs. Given that Pakistan does not possess heavier thermo-nuclear warheads, and has deployed ~300kg (~20kt) fission warheads aboard the cruise missiles, a payload of around 1500 kg can be enough for a minimum of 3 MIRVs.
As far as the propellant development is concerned, since no publicly available authentic information is present online, I recommend watching videos of test fires of the new Shaheen-IA and old Shaheen-I for comparison of pitch-maneuver starting times.

You guys just don't get it, do you? We don't work like that. All it requires is a few visits to a close friend of ours, purchase of critical machinery and the rest is done at home.

2)Second aspect is how do pakistani research establishment(equivalent of DRDL/ASL/RCI) propose to develop composites to replace maraging steel(if at all pakistan uses maraging steel in structural assemblies)? And what are the research labs that are working in composites,especially the metallurgical processes- like epoxy resin moulding and allied proesses that yield requisite composites that can be used in place of maraging steel

If you are looking for the names of research organizations, NESCOM (and its subsidiaries) is the one. Again, since they don't disclose propositions and plans, you won't be able to see any before the actual weapon is introduced. But I'm hopeful that you'll get your answer soon.

3)Thirdly ,what labs in pakistan are working on MEMS based INS? I mean to be brutally honest,i have heard samar mubarakmand making tall claims about their "navigation" system but sadly Unlike his DRDO counterpart he never ever explained or even published a research paper on the guidance scheme! i mean tell me frankly if you have read a research paper on pakistani "designed" MEMS based LRG or FOG? or other micro-eletronics- something that you can get readily on DRDO's publication list!

I don't know what you've been led to believe, but MEMS-based INS is not really a big deal. It is available off-the-shelf and can be reproduced. Forgive Dr. Samar, he has to give statements like that.

Again, we don't really care for published research. The reason is simple. Since we do not have an active space program and we are considered hostile because of development nuclear weapons, if we publish it, it will invite a lot of unnecessary criticism form the international community. We just use whatever we can get our hands on or whatever we develop. I hope you have heard of the term "Jugaad".

Thirdly pakistan never organizes big seminars on ballistics missiles where industry and academia get together to pour their ideas like the IISc and IIT bombay seminars(regularly organized by DRDO) - these are the things that are the indicators of "research culture" in pakistan

Yet again, we'd better disclose all of our plans (like DRDO does) rather than organizing public seminars...its not "healthy" for us.
However I do agree that the research culture is absent (or minimally present) in Pakistan.

I just hope you dont resort to the age old pakistani cliche- "it's all top secret","pakistan doesnt produce research publications and patents in these fields" and so on..!

Its a fact! Why SHOULD we publish? It would (supposedly, according to the military establishment) bring more harm than good.

I personally feel it is lack of technical expertise and funding!I mean look,we can come up with all the fancy reasons but the ground realities in missile development require solid research in metallurgy,MEMS based guidance and the industrial maturity of the country

I do agree that "Technical Expertise" is not present now, however "Technical Potential" is there.
If you don't want to believe that Pakistan can also develop such weapons, be my guest. You see, the thing about Pakistani defence establishment is that they are very good at developing cost-effective solutions. So when Pakistan introduces an MIRVed missile, it might not be and look as good as Agni-VI or Minuteman-III, but it will be something that gets the job done.

 

[IND151]

In September 2008, Indian scientists developed a path-breaking technology that has the potential to increase the range of missiles and satellite launch vehicles by at least 40%.The enhanced range is made possible by adding a special-purpose coating of chromium metal to the blunt nose cone of missiles and launch vehicles. This would add-up on the stated range

New tech to boost missile range by 40% - Economic Times

 

[amardeep mishra]

and has deployed ~300kg (~20kt) fission warheads aboard the cruise missiles, a payload of around 1500 kg can be enough for a minimum of 3 MIRVs

Hi @The Deterrent

i am all open for discussions based on hard and concrete research literature. I would love to know the source of your (~300kg/20kT) device.What i am simply asking is,has this figure been released by any of pakistan's research labs or by mubarakmand himself?It is sad to see that a person like mubarakmand who heads pakistani design agency chooses to remain so utterly ignorant of indian developments and worse under rates them!.I have personally attended a lot of seminars my friend and have interacted with a lot of research engineers- they all seem pretty aware of the chinese developments!
Here are couple of seminar pics that i attended,this one was on phased array radars and the speaker is none other than Dr ATRE ex DG DRDO

Negative, the throw-weight depends exclusively on the individual masses of the RVs.

When i referred to "throw weight" i meant the payload carrying capacity of the rocket which is the SUM of all the masses including RV,MEMS based sensors/actuators,your bus and all other allied systems- hope i have myself clear?Now my point is,you may very well come up with some fancy number that suits you,since i am a control engineer,all i am interested in is,how do you ARRIVE at those numbers? BASED on What kind of literature?I mean what kind of research literature do you subscribe to my friend?

I don't know what you've been led to believe, but MEMS-based INS is not really a big deal. It is available off-the-shelf and can be reproduced

You can indeed buy it off china but for indigenous production you'd need FABs- i just hope you know what kind of capital investment is required to erect a FAB and the yearly profits- for instance to erect a high end FAB you'd need something like $5bn whereas the annual profit from these fabs(data taken from 5 major FABs in ASIA) hardly exceeds $150-200mn!
My friend i am afraid you're terribly mistaken here,MEMS based sensors and actuators occupy a huge portion of control systems engineering.You see the major challenge associated with any MEMS based system is it's "packaging",like you have DIP,ball packaging for ICs,similarly you have for MEMS- and that requires some decent FABs!
It can be fabricated in a lot of ways,like etching,deposition etc and then comes your packaging (which require FABs my friend),i.e you integrate your sensor/actuator in an electronic circuit on an IC- most common example is MEMS based accelerometer.
One more intriguing aspect of MEMS based actuators is,that magnetic fields cant be easily realized on micro level (for instance in a very small micro motor/gear arrangement) hence they use electric field in a micro motor- not many people are aware of this!

they are very good at developing cost-effective solutions

We call it frugal gandhian engineering,However thats not my point ,my point,is,for these multi-billion dollar projects which require some really technologically intensive systems,how would pakistan achieve it- given it's multi-disciplinary nature .I strictly go by the published literature or proven experiments/demonstration of the capability- for instance ex DG DRDO have hinted to the possible development of anti ship ballistic missile ,you see,while india might have all the components and the requisite resources but i wouldnt believe unless and until have read a research paper or any simulation analysis from DRDL/ASL or a live real test!- i hope you get my point!

 

[The Deterrent]

Hi @The Deterrent

i am all open for discussions based on hard and concrete research literature. I would love to know the source of your (~300kg/20kT) device.What i am simply asking is,has this figure been released by any of pakistan's research labs or by mubarakmand himself?
Here are couple of seminar pics that i attended,this one was on phased array radars and the speaker is none other than Dr ATRE ex DG DRDO
View attachment 193583

I understand your fondness for published literature, I really do. But there are somethings that have to be assumed or derived from various sources. For example, the source for ~300kg | 20kt device:

In late November 2008, Pakistan's Defence Export Promotion Organization (DEPO) held the biennial International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS). During this exhibition, Pakistan's Army Strategic Forces Command (ASFC) displayed 6 strategic weapons systems (Ghaznavi, Ghauri, Shaheen-I, Shaheen-II, Babur, Ra'ad) for technological demonstration. The features of the weapons were also displayed alongside. Babur's poster showed a figure of "300 Kg" alongside the title "PAYLOAD".

Regarding yield, in '98 Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission test-detonated 6 nuclear devices. Varying yields were achieved, of which the highest was claimed as 45 kilotons equivalent of TNT. Assuming that the weapon designs under testing were to be later produced and deployed on delivery platforms, the heaviest warhead would be of around 907kg / 2000lbs (as a gravity bomb for fighter aircrafts) or a maximum of 1050 kg / 2315lbs (mass of Shaheen-II's Re-entry Vehicle, as stated by the ASFC during IDEAS 2008). Furthermore, Pakistan's Khushab Reactor Complex now produces enough plutonium to be used in considerable amounts for nuclear weapons. Adding to it, Professor Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy has stated that development of composite cores of modern delivery systems is highly likely. Moreover, substantial information is available online about Pakistan producing considerable amount of Tritium in the Khushab Complex for boosting the yield of newer warheads, however since limited quantity is available, it can be assumed that the boosted-fission warheads may have been considered only for longer ranged strategic systems.

In the light of the above information, I have claimed that the 300kg warhead aboard Babur & Ra'ad cruise missiles would have a yield of around 20 kilotons equivalent of TNT at least, if not more.

It is sad to see that a person like mubarakmand who heads pakistani design agency chooses to remain so utterly ignorant of indian developments and worse under rates them!.I have personally attended a lot of seminars my friend and have interacted with a lot of research engineers- they all seem pretty aware of the chinese developments!

Dr. Samar Mubarakmand retired in 2007. He was a part of the older military-industrial complex that developed strategic weapons and their delivery systems in the 90s, and he had the status of a public figure portraying Pakistan's advancement in military (nuclear & missile) technology. So a bit of propaganda from his side here and there is understandable.
The current Chairman NESCOM and everyone working in the organization is pretty well-aware of the recent developments made by DRDO, I'm sure.

When i referred to "throw weight" i meant the payload carrying capacity of the rocket which is the SUM of all the masses including RV,MEMS based sensors/actuators,your bus and all other allied systems- hope i have myself clear?Now my point is,you may very well come up with some fancy number that suits you,since i am a control engineer,all i am interested in is,how do you ARRIVE at those numbers? BASED on What kind of literature?I mean what kind of research literature do you subscribe to my friend?

Well, since aap ki sui waheen atki hui hai, may I recommend waiting for a while for Pakistan to introduce such a system? I hope photographic proof would be better than any fancy number, right?

You forgot the nose cone, thats the heaviest after the nuclear device.

Oh and lets not brag about our qualifications, shall we? I have read enough about US cold-war developments to know that miniaturization is a matter of preference, not a technological limitation.

My friend i am afraid you're terribly mistaken here,MEMS based sensors and actuators occupy a huge portion of control systems engineering.You see the major challenge associated with any MEMS based system is it's "packaging",like you have DIP,ball packaging for ICs,similarly you have for MEMS- and that requires some decent FABs!
It can be fabricated in a lot of ways,like etching,deposition etc and then comes your packaging (which require FABs my friend),i.e you integrate your sensor/actuator in an electronic circuit on an IC- most common example is MEMS based accelerometer.

My bad, I meant that they can be integrated anywhere, not fabricated.
Off. The. Shelf. Try to understand, Pakistan does not have the resources to invest into FABs.

One more intriguing aspect of MEMS based actuators is,that magnetic fields cant be easily realized on micro level (for instance in a very small micro motor/gear arrangement) hence they use electric field in a micro motor- not many people are aware of this!

I didn't know that, thanks for sharing.

We call it frugal gandhian engineering,However thats not my point ,my point,is,for these multi-billion dollar projects which require some really technologically intensive systems,how would pakistan achieve it- given it's multi-disciplinary nature .I strictly go by the published literature or proven experiments/demonstration of the capability- for instance ex DG DRDO have hinted to the possible development of anti ship ballistic missile ,you see,while india might have all the components and the requisite resources but i wouldnt believe unless and until have read a research paper or any simulation analysis from DRDL/ASL or a live real test!- i hope you get my point!

Oh please don't compare DRDO with NESCOM, they consider it mandatory to share their pre-mature on-paper designs.

You are absolutely right, since there aren't any papers being published by Pakistani engineers & scientists, Pakistan won't develop anything more. It was a pleasure having a discussion with you.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Oh please don't compare DRDO with NESCOM, they consider it mandatory to share their pre-mature on-paper designs.

Yes,@The Deterrent thats why i dont believe unless DRDO
1)publishes a thorough simulation analysis
or 2)research paper dealing with the technology for instance you can get some really decent research papers on scramjet propulsion from DRDL
or 3)live tests!

Oh and lets not brag about our qualifications, shall we? I have read enough about US cold-war developments to know that miniaturization is a matter of preference, not a technological limitation.

Again that is very broad generalization,miniaturization of "what"? Did you refer to miniaturization of warheads or the guidance and control systems?I must confess,i really know very little about the miniaturization of warheads as that is perhaps more into metallurgy,however you must realize that control systems engineering is something that i have worked with(thanks to my academic background and college),having said that,miniaturization of guidance ,especially indigenous capability to do it in the country(in short FABs) isnt really that cheap

 

[T-Rex]

If true, then congratulations to India.

Hopefully India will use its power for the positive in the world, and would not become another Western stooge in the region with selfish agenda, barbaric intent of maximum power, and no principles.

And congrats to Pakistan for testing the latest missile with a range of 120 miles. Can you imagine, one hundred and twenty miles! That's a long, long way for a missile. Pakistan should also test some with only 12 miles range, in case the enemy gets too close to Islamabad.

 

[The Deterrent]

Again that is very broad generalization,miniaturization of "what"? Did you refer to miniaturization of warheads or the guidance and control systems?I must confess,i really know very little about the miniaturization of warheads as that is perhaps more into metallurgy,however you must realize that control systems engineering is something that i have worked with,having said that,miniaturization of guidance ,especially indigenous capability to do it in the country(in short FABs) isnt really that cheap

The warheads. The fission nuclear devices. Mechanical INS (giving CEP of less than 0.1% of range) on existing ballistic missiles are already in use, I doubt their (or digital INS's) mass would be a limitation.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Mechanical INS (giving CEP of less than 0.1% of range) on existing ballistic missiles are already in use, I doubt their (or digital INS's) mass would be a limitation.

the mass of actuators?

 

[The Deterrent]

the mass of actuators?

No, the Inertial Navigation System's. The actuators are in the tail assembly (for the solid-fuel stages).