JH7B As Buddy Refueller:----

[CHI RULES]

Hi,

Thank you for your comments---. Most people don't realize that a fully loaded aircraft uses almost 1/3rd to 1/2 its fuel at take off----.

For that very reason many an air craft taking off from carriers take off with full weapons load and minimal fuel and once in the air they get filled up. To top that off---you can increase your loiter time to hours. You don't need to land your JF17 every 1 hour or every 1 1/2 hr----. You can increase the cap missions to 4 - 5 hours---you increase the flight stamina and endurance of your pilots to fly for longer durations----and the cost of operating a buddy refueler is much less than that behemoth the Illyushin that we have.

So---by adding this weapon to our arsenal---we can suddenly increase the potency of the JF 17 and give it strike capabilities not imagined before---suddenly this little birdie can do strikes in the 800-1500 miles radius.

When we have an enemy across the border---we should always keep the 1973 Ramzan war scenario in focus---. The Egyptian mig21's had barely 30 to 40 minutes of LOITER time----the Israeli planes would wait for them to start to land and then they would pounce on them and the Egyptian pilots were helpless because on the other side were phanotms with around 3 1/2 hours of loiter time.




Hi,

The JH7B is more like the F111 of the U S air force----. It is a matter of range---the JH7B has a longer range and more load carrying capacity than the J11 D.

If I was to decide---then I want a strike air craft than can reach the state of Maharashtra and down below. I know that my enemy will smash Karachi---Lahore---multan---etc etc etc---for that reason---I want access to Mumbai and Poona and other cities down below----and with my standoff weapons capabilities----I want to reach farther out----because I want to keep this battle at a conventional level right to the end. The message I want to give to the enemy is that I know that you are going to destroy me----but in response---I will also bring you down to your knees---I don't believe in giving a bloody nose---or smash the jaw----I want to reach and slip the knife into their soft underbelly----their industrial base---the places from where they carry out their international businesses----I want to smash those businesses to smithereens just like they will do to my cities and infra structure---but I want to do it those areas----which they never expected us to reach---.

Destruction of Indian Punjab and adjoining states does not excite me---because I know the indian govt has written them off in this coming war----it is down below where the jewels are hidden.

I want to have this aircraft to carry 2 plus Babur air launched cruise missiles---the air launched version of cruise missile gives it a range from anywhere south of 1200 to 1500 KM from the launch point in the air.

With buddy type refueling---we can reach so far out and then come back---that will just be amazing feat in itself---our sorties can be up flying around for so many extra hours and it will pose lesser threat to the heavy refuellers----.

Plus we do not need to operate any forward bases----because our JF17 can now be up in the air for 3-5 hours at a time---.

The flight ceiling of Jh7b is low, it do not enjoy A to A capabilities like Su 35 or even J11D, not so maneuverable. Not good in either WVR or BVR. Further SU35 or J11 D are supposed to have better EW suite and stealth features.

 

[MastanKhan]

Just wondering using this method, how many say JF-17s would a single JH-7 would be able to refuel..... say a flight of five JF-17s is on a mission over enemy territory, would the mother ship will carry enough fuel to top up all of them and if JH-7 is engaged in buddy system, what about it's own mission profile and above all, in India/Pakistan scenario, if the air force can't protect it's dedicated refuellers in it's own territory, what are the chances of carrying out this exercise over enemy area.

Hi,

I think some of us are getting ahead of the picture. The utility of a mainstay air refueller cannot be overlooked---but then the utility of the buddy refueller can not be understated either.

It should be accepted that the mainstay refuellers would be taken out in the first 48-72 hours---or only those survive that are farther into Baluchistan.

When returning from a mission---you are not looking to be TOPPED OFF---you only get enough fuel to land or to get into friendly space so that you can ditch your aircraft and then can be picked up.

But the utility of using buddy refuellers over Pakistan to increase the loiter time of the JF17 from 1 hour to between 3-5 hours is an astronomical leap in enhancing the performance of this aircraft.

It is a massive force multiplier in itself. You do not need forward air bases---. You do not need to scramble you aircraft in a hurry and then worry about landing them and then of a bigger worry of the enemy pouncing on them while the aircraft is desperate to land because it has no fuel to fly.

Hello Mastan Khan,
What if for some reason the JH-7 is not available or just not feasible for the role ...what could be another option ...our Mirages ?

Hi,

Then you have the J11D---SU35's.

Are you suggesting pre-emptive air strikes on civilian infrastructure? I mean I get it when you say you want a long range bomber which can strike deep in enemy territory but you want those bombers to also take out civilian targets which may or may not have any military use. Is that what is it is all about? I think it will be a serious mistake on our part if that is (Allah forbid) part of our military strategy.

Do you really think we can claim the moral high ground by attacking civilian infrastructure without any provocation and that too before the nuclear threshold has been crossed?

India is not Afghanistan. There are plenty of legitimate military targets all over the country and by sticking to those targets only we can not only sap her morale but also take away her will to fight.

Even if the enemy does start bombing civilian targets we already do have missiles that can hit most of the their cities.

Hi,

Just like the enemy is going to target our industrial complex----we need to target any technology / industrial center / any business entity that where foreign investment is coming in is a must---. Foreign capital needs to be forced out of the country alogwith the foreigners working in the region.

i don't get you mastan bahi, today's aerial warfare is for stand-off ranges why we needs JH-7B to get closer to target, we have Ra'ad will do work for PAF, i understand you that JF17 has a limited weapon carrying capability, please explain, thank you

Hi,

I think you missed the point-----. For example----the JF 17 can fly 400 miles from Karachi and then launch a standoff missiles with a range of 180 miles----you have covered a distance of 580 miles.

The JH7B can travel a distance of a 900-1000 miles and now your standoff will cover 180 miles---now you have reached 1080---1180 miles into the enemy territory.

That extra reach is the soft underbelly of the enemy that it thought you could not reach.

The JH7B can also carry a heavier load than the JF17 and loiter for a much longer time----which give you some control over the sea lanes and threat from enemy ships.

When you are flying 500 miles away from the coastline---you would rather have 3 or 4 AShM rather than 1---because the chance and opportunity is going to present itself---but thru a very very small window---so you don't want to be left holding the bag----..

What if the commander of the Ghazi had the ballz to take out the indian aircraft carrier at dwarka at the end of august just before the hostilities started on the Pakistan front---a pre-emptive strike----.

A bigger question i believe is why we have not converted some of our c130s to kc130s. That would give PAF even more refuelling options

SU 34 is not variable geometry

Hi,

Those are again slow and lumbering aircraft---. We need a comparatively smaller and stealthier aircraft to do that job---someone that can also defend itself as well.

C130 is not a fighter---a bomber---an electronics counter measure aircraft ( it can be )----a deep strike mach 2 bomber---stealthier---BVR capable----can carry all the Chinese weapons that we have---.

 

[Basel]

Hi,

Pakistan air force is going for air to air refueling for its JF17 fleet. It currently has the Illyushin aircraft for that job. Incidently---during actual war time---the heavy refuellers in the Pakistani arena would be taken out in the first 48 to 72 hours due to limited space of flight.

So---to compensate for that---the air force needs a different options. The different option can be a medium to heavy fighter bomber type of aircraft----which---along with carrying its prime activities can also add another important feature to its abilities---that is air to air BUDDY REFUELLING.

The enemy air force would take it as its first and foremost priority to take out the heavy refuellers---they will go all out to neutralize this serious threat and the target time is the first 48 hours----. We can anticipate the refuellers to be completely out of service after the first 72 hours by the enemy.

So---after that time period---the air force---which would be in dire need of refuellers---would be left empty handed. And---in order for it to have a secondary platform to meet and exceed the needs of air to air refueling it has no other option but to go for a heavy strike aircraft which can have a dual / multi purpose utility.

So---again this utility can be arranged for a JH7B type of aircraft---it is your bomber---it is your BVR truck---it is your Electronic counter measure / Growler type aircraft---it can carry your future long distance ALCM's----and it can be hooked up with the utility of a drogue to fill up other aircraft in need.

I think that the Paf needs to go for a multi purpose aircraft for air to air refueling rather than a full time refueller because of the very limited air space for most of its area.

The only place that this Illyushin type aircraft can successfully engage in refueling without an immediate enemy threat is over most of Baluchistan and Arabian sea in the Gwadar / pasni region---and that area is not enough to meet the needs of the air force.

With a hose and drogue type buddy refueller---all those aircraft can be used in that capacity any time of the day or night.

@Indus Falcon @silent hawk

JFT can buddy refuel other JFT if pod is developed and PAF thinks they need buddy refuelled, no need for induction of another platform for that role, although PAF can use its smaller transport planes with buddy pod if need arise in future.

The flight ceiling of Jh7b is low, it do not enjoy A to A capabilities like Su 35 or even J11D, not so maneuverable. Not good in either WVR or BVR. Further SU35 or J11 D are supposed to have better EW suite and stealth features.

There is reason PAF & PN both have rejected it since 80s.

 

[Alphacharlie]

Hi,

Thank you for your comments---. Most people don't realize that a fully loaded aircraft uses almost 1/3rd to 1/2 its fuel at take off----.

For that very reason many an air craft taking off from carriers take off with full weapons load and minimal fuel and once in the air they get filled up. To top that off---you can increase your loiter time to hours. You don't need to land your JF17 every 1 hour or every 1 1/2 hr----. You can increase the cap missions to 4 - 5 hours---you increase the flight stamina and endurance of your pilots to fly for longer durations----and the cost of operating a buddy refueler is much less than that behemoth the Illyushin that we have.

So---by adding this weapon to our arsenal---we can suddenly increase the potency of the JF 17 and give it strike capabilities not imagined before---suddenly this little birdie can do strikes in the 800-1500 miles radius.

When we have an enemy across the border---we should always keep the 1973 Ramzan war scenario in focus---. The Egyptian mig21's had barely 30 to 40 minutes of LOITER time----the Israeli planes would wait for them to start to land and then they would pounce on them and the Egyptian pilots were helpless because on the other side were phanotms with around 3 1/2 hours of loiter time.




Hi,

The JH7B is more like the F111 of the U S air force----. It is a matter of range---the JH7B has a longer range and more load carrying capacity than the J11 D.

If I was to decide---then I want a strike air craft than can reach the state of Maharashtra and down below. I know that my enemy will smash Karachi---Lahore---multan---etc etc etc---for that reason---I want access to Mumbai and Poona and other cities down below----and with my standoff weapons capabilities----I want to reach farther out----because I want to keep this battle at a conventional level right to the end. The message I want to give to the enemy is that I know that you are going to destroy me----but in response---I will also bring you down to your knees---I don't believe in giving a bloody nose---or smash the jaw----I want to reach and slip the knife into their soft underbelly----their industrial base---the places from where they carry out their international businesses----I want to smash those businesses to smithereens just like they will do to my cities and infra structure---but I want to do it those areas----which they never expected us to reach---.

Destruction of Indian Punjab and adjoining states does not excite me---because I know the indian govt has written them off in this coming war----it is down below where the jewels are hidden.

I want to have this aircraft to carry 2 plus Babur air launched cruise missiles---the air launched version of cruise missile gives it a range from anywhere south of 1200 to 1500 KM from the launch point in the air.

With buddy type refueling---we can reach so far out and then come back---that will just be amazing feat in itself---our sorties can be up flying around for so many extra hours and it will pose lesser threat to the heavy refuellers----.

Plus we do not need to operate any forward bases----because our JF17 can now be up in the air for 3-5 hours at a time---.

Janab -

You cant get to Gujrat which is 2nd most Industrial State forget Mumbai.....

Please think 1Sqn of Mig 29 or 1/2 Sqn Jaguar in Fakhor can do...(If it were a 1/2 Sqn of Jaguar then it will get Airsupport from a Flight of Mig 29)-

 

[Ultima Thule]

Hi,

I think some of us are getting ahead of the picture. The utility of a mainstay air refueller cannot be overlooked---but then the utility of the buddy refueller can not be understated either.

It should be accepted that the mainstay refuellers would be taken out in the first 48-72 hours---or only those survive that are farther into Baluchistan.

When returning from a mission---you are not looking to be TOPPED OFF---you only get enough fuel to land or to get into friendly space so that you can ditch your aircraft and then can be picked up.

But the utility of using buddy refuellers over Pakistan to increase the loiter time of the JF17 from 1 hour to between 3-5 hours is an astronomical leap in enhancing the performance of this aircraft.

It is a massive force multiplier in itself. You do not need forward air bases---. You do not need to scramble you aircraft in a hurry and then worry about landing them and then of a bigger worry of the enemy pouncing on them while the aircraft is desperate to land because it has no fuel to fly.



Hi,

Then you have the J11D---SU35's.



Hi,

Just like the enemy is going to target our industrial complex----we need to target any technology / industrial center / any business entity that where foreign investment is coming in is a must---. Foreign capital needs to be forced out of the country alogwith the foreigners working in the region.




Hi,

I think you missed the point-----. For example----the JF 17 can fly 400 miles from Karachi and then launch a standoff missiles with a range of 180 miles----you have covered a distance of 580 miles.

The JH7B can travel a distance of a 900-1000 miles and now your standoff will cover 180 miles---now you have reached 1080---1180 miles into the enemy territory.

That extra reach is the soft underbelly of the enemy that it thought you could not reach.

The JH7B can also carry a heavier load than the JF17 and loiter for a much longer time----which give you some control over the sea lanes and threat from enemy ships.

When you are flying 500 miles away from the coastline---you would rather have 3 or 4 AShM rather than 1---because the chance and opportunity is going to present itself---but thru a very very small window---so you don't want to be left holding the bag----..

What if the commander of the Ghazi had the ballz to take out the indian aircraft carrier at dwarka at the end of august just before the hostilities started on the Pakistan front---a pre-emptive strike----.



Hi,

Those are again slow and lumbering aircraft---. We need a comparatively smaller and stealthier aircraft to do that job---someone that can also defend itself as well.

C130 is not a fighter---a bomber---an electronics counter measure aircraft ( it can be )----a deep strike mach 2 bomber---stealthier---BVR capable----can carry all the Chinese weapons that we have---.

Thanks

 

[Drebin]

Hi,

I do not have much to add to the discussion except raise Viper101's POV about Chinese developing J-18 to get away from JH-7s and, commend the OP on starting a very pertinent and educational debate.

Thanks and God bless you all.

 

[MastanKhan]

There is reason PAF & PN both have rejected it since 80s.

Hi,

And opted for the A5 Fantan----.

Same was the case with the F7PG's ----Pakistan had rejected them in the past multiple times----but the Chinese insisted and the Pakistanis were surprised at the capabilities of that aircraft.

The JH7B is not the aircraft of the 80's----. If the Chinese believe that it is their foremost strike platform against the U S navy----then posters need to step back a little bit and do some fresh research to what has happened over the years and what has changed---.

Janab -

You cant get to Gujrat which is 2nd most Industrial State forget Mumbai.....

Please think 1Sqn of Mig 29 or 1/2 Sqn Jaguar in Fakhor can do...(If it were a 1/2 Sqn of Jaguar then it will get Airsupport from a Flight of Mig 29)-

Hi,

Hey buddy----if you say so----

 

[untitled]

C130 is not a fighter---a bomber---an electronics counter measure aircraft ( it can be )----a deep strike mach 2 bomber---stealthier---BVR capable----can carry all the Chinese weapons that we have---.

My point was that our only aeirel refuelling options are our current IL-78s which can't even refuel our F-16s.
Having similar tankers like KC-130s won't hurt.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

If you look at the overall scenario---the JH7B could be the busiest aircraft in the Paf's arsenal.

So---it is a buddy refueller---well and good----bringing water to the thirsty is a great job----who can deny that----but that is not all---it is also equipped with heavy electronic counter measures and jamming devices----well it can give protection to its assets---it can also be equipped with an aesa----for the size of it---it will be a massive aesa with around 1600T/R modules---it will also be equipped with IRST---a load of 2 BVR's and 2 WVR---in this mode.

This aircraft while resupplying fuel to smaller aircraft is also making a run to the heavy refueller to get filled up again----it will also provide protection to the heavy refueller thru its heavy jamming capabilities and if need be---in worst case scenario---sacrifice itself to the oncoming missiles to save the large refueller.

When we are talking about refueling the JF17 for CAP missions and increasing the flight time in the air from 1 hour to close to 5 hours----it means that there are going to be at least 2 refills needed. The JH7B is just not only supplying fuel to these aircraft but also offering them extra protection as well----and this process is going on in a cycle----.

If there is a CAP of 20 + aircraft in the air and 2 heavy refuellers---those farther in baluchistan will feed from the heavies----but those closer to the border will feed from the buddy refuellers---it will be like one coming and staying for awhile and then leaving and another one coming in to refuel after awhile----or just staying with the formation to add to the punch.

When flying in support over the ocean---again the heavy jamming capabilities of this aircraft would be much in need----plus its BVR strike capability----and again the support over the ocean would also be cyclic---one buddy refueller going in and unloading and then going back and the second one taking its place.

So over all:--

1. buddy refueling for JF17 aircraft and other JH7's

2. protecting the fuel tankers in air

3. protecting the awacs in the air or refueling the aircraft that are protecting the awacs

4. deep strike missions over land or over the ocean

5. providing electronic counter measure / Growler type support on missions

6. providing Massive BVR support during confrontation

7. leading AShM strike formations deep over the ocean

8. raising the overall battle capabilities of the forces by raising the moral of the forces with its presence

 

[Alphacharlie]

Hi,

And opted for the A5 Fantan----.

Same was the case with the F7PG's ----Pakistan had rejected them in the past multiple times----but the Chinese insisted and the Pakistanis were surprised at the capabilities of that aircraft.

The JH7B is not the aircraft of the 80's----. If the Chinese believe that it is their foremost strike platform against the U S navy----then posters need to step back a little bit and do some fresh research to what has happened over the years and what has changed---.



Hi,

Hey buddy----if you say so----

I am your Biggest Fan Mastan Saab.
But I am your Biggest Foe as well.....

 

[MastanKhan]

I am your Biggest Fan Mastan Saab.
But I am your Biggest Foe as well.....

Hi,

Thank you. I try to stay away from the Vs issues---my focus is what we have or the lack of it and what its inclusion could do to strengthen our hand.

So---basically that is what the focus has been in all these air force related threads that I write in. I understand the abilities and capabilities of the IAF---but it is for the others to discuss---I want to keep myself at how to cure my shortcomings---.

 

[untitled]

The flight ceiling of Jh7b is low

For a deep strike interdiction aircraft a high ceiling does not matter because most of its serious flying will be done while hugging the ground (trying to evade the radar)

 

[Arsalan]

I am your Biggest Fan Mastan Saab.
But I am your Biggest Foe as well.....

And @MastanKhan is the biggest fan of long range strike fighter air craft. A plane with longer reach and more payload capacity.
AND rightly so!!
A long range heavier strike aircraft that can also fill in the maritime striker role as well as serve as on land longer range strike platform. JH7 seems to fit the bill perfectly,,

Right sir?

 

[HRM YANG]

Hi,

I do not have much to add to the discussion except raise Viper101's POV about Chinese developing J-18 to get away from JH-7s and, commend the OP on starting a very pertinent and educational debate.

Thanks and God bless you all.

It's J-17 which is look like su-34 but front aileron part is redesigned, can take 10-13 tons of weapons, exiting!

 

[HRM YANG]

I think National air defence operation is not relies on refueling as the remote air operation is... in the war Pakistan can try the best to destroy those high value strategic target and logistics facilities to force the indian progress slowly, it's like viper can kill elephant in this way, and PAF Stealth Airceaft It's le damocles to indian, But It's range is short and need a platform with high survival rate to refuel it.