JH7B As Buddy Refueller:----

[Indus Falcon]

Here are J15's doing what @MastanKhan suggested

 

[Viper 94]

Hi,

Actually it is not a matter of convincing PAF. Just like Gen Musharraf did----cancelled some orders of the ereiye and bought the Chinese version and let the paf get pi-ssed off as much they wanted to---that is what is needed to be done by the CinC-----.

Basically---this order and procurement needs to come from the top----and paf told---here are the numbers that you are getting---now get ready and place a setup and training schedule.

Someone in power has to shove the heavy fighter bomber down the paf's throat by force----. Fighter aircraft mafia boys need to be showed who the real Boss is.



Hi,

I really have no clue about that----.



I think we are talking about a different aircraft for that job----aren't we!

yes but it is very unlikely for PAF to induct a new type of fighter bomber aircraft like JH-7B simply to refuel JF-17
there is no operational requirement for such an aircraft
now if the su-35 deal goes through then jf-17 can be buddy refueled by su-35

 

[Zarvan]

Hi,

Pakistan air force is going for air to air refueling for its JF17 fleet. It currently has the Illyushin aircraft for that job. Incidently---during actual war time---the heavy refuellers in the Pakistani arena would be taken out in the first 48 to 72 hours due to limited space of flight.

So---to compensate for that---the air force needs a different options. The different option can be a medium to heavy fighter bomber type of aircraft----which---along with carrying its prime activities can also add another important feature to its abilities---that is air to air BUDDY REFUELLING.

The enemy air force would take it as its first and foremost priority to take out the heavy refuellers---they will go all out to neutralize this serious threat and the target time is the first 48 hours----. We can anticipate the refuellers to be completely out of service after the first 72 hours by the enemy.

So---after that time period---the air force---which would be in dire need of refuellers---would be left empty handed. And---in order for it to have a secondary platform to meet and exceed the needs of air to air refueling it has no other option but to go for a heavy strike aircraft which can have a dual / multi purpose utility.

So---again this utility can be arranged for a JH7B type of aircraft---it is your bomber---it is your BVR truck---it is your Electronic counter measure / Growler type aircraft---it can carry your future long distance ALCM's----and it can be hooked up with the utility of a drogue to fill up other aircraft in need.

I think that the Paf needs to go for a multi purpose aircraft for air to air refueling rather than a full time refueller because of the very limited air space for most of its area.

The only place that this Illyushin type aircraft can successfully engage in refueling without an immediate enemy threat is over most of Baluchistan and Arabian sea in the Gwadar / pasni region---and that area is not enough to meet the needs of the air force.

With a hose and drogue type buddy refueller---all those aircraft can be used in that capacity any time of the day or night.

@Indus Falcon @silent hawk

We don't need that we first need three 4.5 the Generation Fighters like F-16 JF-17 and SU-35 and 4th can be a bomber to carry out deep strikes and even nuclear strikes for bomber J-16 or JH-7 B can be an option. As for Air Refuellers they are useless when your enemy also has massive Air Force

 

[Indus Falcon]

Hi,

Actually it is not a matter of convincing PAF. Just like Gen Musharraf did----cancelled some orders of the ereiye and bought the Chinese version and let the paf get pi-ssed off as much they wanted to---that is what is needed to be done by the CinC-----.

Basically---this order and procurement needs to come from the top----and paf told---here are the numbers that you are getting---now get ready and place a setup and training schedule.

Someone in power has to shove the heavy fighter bomber down the paf's throat by force----. Fighter aircraft mafia boys need to be showed who the real Boss is.

Tough call !!!

@Windjammer Any comments?

We don't need that we first need three 4.5 the Generation Fighters like F-16 JF-17 and SU-35 and 4th can be a bomber to carry out deep strikes and even nuclear strikes for bomber J-16 or JH-7 B can be an option. As for Air Refuellers they are useless when your enemy also has massive Air Force

F-16 Blk52+ is 4th Gen,
JF17 is 3.5 Gen,
SU-35 is 4.5 Gen

Ideally, finances permitting, What we should get is 54 Su-35's and 72 JH-7Bs, not either or, but both.

Su-35 US$130m per unit
JH-7b US45m per unit

SU-35 - 54 units X $130m = $7.02Bn
JH-7b - 72 units X $45m = $3.240Bn

Total = US$10.26Bn
+Spares & Ammo US$2.5Bn +US$1.5Bn = US$14.26Bn / 10years = US$1.42Bn per annum.

 

[Zarvan]

Tough call !!!

@Windjammer Any comments?



F-16 Blk52+ is 4th Gen,
JF17 is 3.5 Gen,
SU-35 is 4.5 Gen

Ideally, finances permitting, What we should get is 54 Su-35's and 72 JH-7Bs, not either or, but both.

Su-35 US$130m per unit
JH-7b US45m per unit

SU-35 - 54 units X $130m = $7.02Bn
JH-7b - 72 units X $45m = $3.240Bn

Total = US$10.26Bn
+Spares & Ammo US$2.5Bn +US$1.5Bn = US$14.26Bn / 10years = US$1.42Bn per annum.

JF-17 is 4th Generation and BLOCK III would be 4.5th Generation.

 

[MastanKhan]

We don't need that we first need three 4.5 the Generation Fighters like F-16 JF-17 and SU-35 and 4th can be a bomber to carry out deep strikes and even nuclear strikes for bomber J-16 or JH-7 B can be an option. As for Air Refuellers they are useless when your enemy also has massive Air Force

Hi,

Actually---tactically---Pakistan needs a JH7B type of aircraft before the SU35. Because the JH7B is tactically a more sound aircraft than the SU35----it can perform more functions equal or better than the SU35.

The only superiority that the SU35 would be within close combat---otherwise----for deep strike mission--better load carrying capacity---BVR combat---electronic counter measures and jamming---this aircraft competes in some and exceeds in the others and but also lags in some---like wvr combat---maneuvering & air superiority role.

The deep strike fighter bomber is a priority to hit the enemy flank---. This capability bring you some parity against the enemy----.

Superior power is not always show and pomp and grace and beauty----. The brutishness of a sledge hammer has its own charm.

yes but it is very unlikely for PAF to induct a new type of fighter bomber aircraft like JH-7B simply to refuel JF-17
there is no operational requirement for such an aircraft
now if the su-35 deal goes through then jf-17 can be buddy refueled by su-35

Hi,

Seems like you have missed out on a whole lot of discussion about the JH7B on the board.

 

[Sine Nomine]

@MastanKhan what about su-34 or it's copy being made by china.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan what about su-34 or it's copy being made by china.

Hi,

I believe that the SU34 is a swing wing aircraft----.

The issue is about 100% integration of Chinese weaponry----. I believe that Russia will allow up to a certain extent of weapons to be integrated---otherwise you will have to buy Russian.

The reason for in vestment to upgrade the JH&A to B was also for those reasons.

 

[tarrar]

I am pretty sure PAF is thinking to acquire the best available option.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Hi,

I believe that the SU34 is a swing wing aircraft----.

The issue is about 100% integration of Chinese weaponry----. I believe that Russia will allow up to a certain extent of weapons to be integrated---otherwise you will have to buy Russian.

The reason for in vestment to upgrade the JH&A to B was also for those reasons.

Chinese Development of Su-34 like Platform based on Su-27 is clear sign of there moving away for JH-7.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

Pakistan air force is going for air to air refueling for its JF17 fleet. It currently has the Illyushin aircraft for that job. Incidently---during actual war time---the heavy refuellers in the Pakistani arena would be taken out in the first 48 to 72 hours due to limited space of flight.
So---again this utility can be arranged for a JH7B type of aircraft
@Indus Falcon @silent hawk

Why not spend a little bit more money and get the J-11B or D? You get a top line Chinese fighter, bomber, buddy refueler with brand new tech....JH-7A was designed on old school strike platform on earlier Mig-23 types of designs and tech....

China is building J-18 for a reason, to get away from the JH-7A.....

 

[Maarkhoor]

As per my personal point of view buddy refueling can't be added in JF-17 because JF-17 is quite small aircraft can't load enough fuel to use as buddy refuel-er rule. Only double engine heavy fighter can do this but their advantage is quite limited.

 

[silent hawk]

Hi,

Pakistan air force is going for air to air refueling for its JF17 fleet. It currently has the Illyushin aircraft for that job. Incidently---during actual war time---the heavy refuellers in the Pakistani arena would be taken out in the first 48 to 72 hours due to limited space of flight.

So---to compensate for that---the air force needs a different options. The different option can be a medium to heavy fighter bomber type of aircraft----which---along with carrying its prime activities can also add another important feature to its abilities---that is air to air BUDDY REFUELLING.

The enemy air force would take it as its first and foremost priority to take out the heavy refuellers---they will go all out to neutralize this serious threat and the target time is the first 48 hours----. We can anticipate the refuellers to be completely out of service after the first 72 hours by the enemy.

So---after that time period---the air force---which would be in dire need of refuellers---would be left empty handed. And---in order for it to have a secondary platform to meet and exceed the needs of air to air refueling it has no other option but to go for a heavy strike aircraft which can have a dual / multi purpose utility.

So---again this utility can be arranged for a JH7B type of aircraft---it is your bomber---it is your BVR truck---it is your Electronic counter measure / Growler type aircraft---it can carry your future long distance ALCM's----and it can be hooked up with the utility of a drogue to fill up other aircraft in need.

I think that the Paf needs to go for a multi purpose aircraft for air to air refueling rather than a full time refueller because of the very limited air space for most of its area.

The only place that this Illyushin type aircraft can successfully engage in refueling without an immediate enemy threat is over most of Baluchistan and Arabian sea in the Gwadar / pasni region---and that area is not enough to meet the needs of the air force.

With a hose and drogue type buddy refueller---all those aircraft can be used in that capacity any time of the day or night.

@Indus Falcon @silent hawk

AoA
Nice to see more people joining the JH-7B bandwagon. The JH-7B has many advantages which we have discussed. Buddy refueling would be a very useful capability and an important force multiplier. The present re-fueler would have limited use in war because of its vulnerability. It would have to be parked in depth and would be used primarily to refuel the aircraft going for deep sea strike or nuclear strike. Buddy refueling enhances PAF capability by providing a refueler that can be used at the operational level. An aircraft consumes a lot of fuel during takeoff. A buddy refueller could replenish the fuel and increase the range of strike aircraft creating more options for PAF and more headaches for IAF. Also for pilots refueling gives them a huge psychological advantage. If engaged in combat they can spend more time knowing that they would be refueled on entering friendly airspace. The real debate now is between the Su-35 or JH-7B or both. At present 3 Sqns of Su-35 and 2 of JH-7B along with 5 Sqns of F-16 and 8 Sqns of JF-17 look pretty nice.
Regards

 

[MastanKhan]

AoA
Nice to see more people joining the JH-7B bandwagon. The JH-7B has many advantages which we have discussed. Buddy refueling would be a very useful capability and an important force multiplier. The present re-fueler would have limited use in war because of its vulnerability. It would have to be parked in depth and would be used primarily to refuel the aircraft going for deep sea strike or nuclear strike. Buddy refueling enhances PAF capability by providing a refueler that can be used at the operational level. An aircraft consumes a lot of fuel during takeoff. A buddy refueller could replenish the fuel and increase the range of strike aircraft creating more options for PAF and more headaches for IAF. Also for pilots refueling gives them a huge psychological advantage. If engaged in combat they can spend more time knowing that they would be refueled on entering friendly airspace. The real debate now is between the Su-35 or JH-7B or both. At present 3 Sqns of Su-35 and 2 of JH-7B along with 5 Sqns of F-16 and 8 Sqns of JF-17 look pretty nice.
Regards

Hi,

Thank you for your comments---. Most people don't realize that a fully loaded aircraft uses almost 1/3rd to 1/2 its fuel at take off----.

For that very reason many an air craft taking off from carriers take off with full weapons load and minimal fuel and once in the air they get filled up. To top that off---you can increase your loiter time to hours. You don't need to land your JF17 every 1 hour or every 1 1/2 hr----. You can increase the cap missions to 4 - 5 hours---you increase the flight stamina and endurance of your pilots to fly for longer durations----and the cost of operating a buddy refueler is much less than that behemoth the Illyushin that we have.

So---by adding this weapon to our arsenal---we can suddenly increase the potency of the JF 17 and give it strike capabilities not imagined before---suddenly this little birdie can do strikes in the 800-1500 miles radius.

When we have an enemy across the border---we should always keep the 1973 Ramzan war scenario in focus---. The Egyptian mig21's had barely 30 to 40 minutes of LOITER time----the Israeli planes would wait for them to start to land and then they would pounce on them and the Egyptian pilots were helpless because on the other side were phanotms with around 3 1/2 hours of loiter time.

Why not spend a little bit more money and get the J-11B or D? You get a top line Chinese fighter, bomber, buddy refueler with brand new tech....JH-7A was designed on old school strike platform on earlier Mig-23 types of designs and tech....

China is building J-18 for a reason, to get away from the JH-7A.....

Hi,

The JH7B is more like the F111 of the U S air force----. It is a matter of range---the JH7B has a longer range and more load carrying capacity than the J11 D.

If I was to decide---then I want a strike air craft than can reach the state of Maharashtra and down below. I know that my enemy will smash Karachi---Lahore---multan---etc etc etc---for that reason---I want access to Mumbai and Poona and other cities down below----and with my standoff weapons capabilities----I want to reach farther out----because I want to keep this battle at a conventional level right to the end. The message I want to give to the enemy is that I know that you are going to destroy me----but in response---I will also bring you down to your knees---I don't believe in giving a bloody nose---or smash the jaw----I want to reach and slip the knife into their soft underbelly----their industrial base---the places from where they carry out their international businesses----I want to smash those businesses to smithereens just like they will do to my cities and infra structure---but I want to do it those areas----which they never expected us to reach---.

Destruction of Indian Punjab and adjoining states does not excite me---because I know the indian govt has written them off in this coming war----it is down below where the jewels are hidden.

I want to have this aircraft to carry 2 plus Babur air launched cruise missiles---the air launched version of cruise missile gives it a range from anywhere south of 1200 to 1500 KM from the launch point in the air.

With buddy type refueling---we can reach so far out and then come back---that will just be amazing feat in itself---our sorties can be up flying around for so many extra hours and it will pose lesser threat to the heavy refuellers----.

Plus we do not need to operate any forward bases----because our JF17 can now be up in the air for 3-5 hours at a time---.

 

[GR!FF!N]

@MastanKhan

what about making a JF-17 based Buddy Refueling System??That makes more sense,doesn't it??

Its not Rocket Science,in fact commonality in Platform makes more sense.why do you need JH-7 for that?

But I want to highlight one aspect.why are you thinking that refueler will be taken out within certain period??Air Force generally provides enough defense against assets like Refueler and AWACS..