JF17 versus MKI

[melb4aust]

But who can explain and make them(Indians) realize this.
All in all, every time same counterarguments, no this is not possible, this cant be, pakistan dont have any resources. I am sick of all this:wall: . Next time i dont wanna engage that kind of conversation, not only this made us to get away from the topic:read: as well.

 

[Samudra]

You dont want to compare there two aircrafts.
One is in service and other is still being developed and atleast a decade away from induction.

A better comparison - if you ever want to do another "versus" thread crap all over again, is JF-17 versus the Tejas.

 

[Munir]

Ok ok...

Let me get it in the right direction.

LCA versus JF17 won't happen. PAF will not fly JF17 into the deep territory of India and neither would LCA be able to do it ever. Let us hope that India atleast orders it...


MKI will be Indian deep interdiction and CAP plane... JF17 will PAF's CAP... Hence JF17 versus MKI...

So before I start to show warnings keep it cool.

 

[Kaiser]

Sorry Triple post

 

[Kaiser]

You dont want to compare there two aircrafts.
One is in service and other is still being developed and atleast a decade away from induction.

A better comparison - if you ever want to do another "versus" thread crap all over again, is JF-17 versus the Tejas.

If anythings a decade away from introduction its the LCA

What other fighter is thunder to likely face?

LCA wont be the one carrying a large bomber payload deep into pakistani territory nor will it be the one be equiped with 10 AA missiles.

Thunder has exellent ECM that should not be forgotten

To make it more easier to compare the 2 here are the missiles each will use

JF-17

WVR

A-darter
Aim-9m
Pl-9c

BVR

SD-10
AMRAAM (?)
T/R-Darter

Su-30mki

WVR

RD-73
Python 4 (?)

Bvr

RD-77
Derby(?)

There might be more which im unaware of:smile:

 

[Kaiser]

According to pakdef PAF is looking into getting Aim-120C and aim-9x with the F-16 mlu4 and future F-16's (block 50 and 52). In the future it might be modified to be used on JF-17 and J-10 (as all PAF fighters are modified to use american sidewinders)

So for JF-17 you can add Aim-120c and AIM-9x and for Mki I forgot to add the R-23

 

[ajaybhutani]

PAF
-? F-16 (but over 60)
-150 JF-17 (another order for 100 very likely)
-?J-10 (likely over 100)

IAF
-190 SU-30mki
-126 MRCA
-? LCA (likely over 100)

read your own statement again..
you are stating that pakitan will acquire more than 310 planes in the near future.. while india will get only 366 planes... please understand that we are talking about economies which vary with each other in size by around 7 times in PPP and even Real terms.. and you are trying to convince us that pakistan can do it.. at least look at how much it costs to get all this money..
pakistan is only a 90 B $ economy..there are limits to how much it can spend on mil;itary and further limits to how much it can increase further( as defence expenditure is already high).. spending anything more than 4-5 % will hurt the economy ...

 

[ajaybhutani]

According to pakdef PAF is looking into getting Aim-120C and aim-9x with the F-16 mlu4 and future F-16's (block 50 and 52). In the future it might be modified to be used on JF-17 and J-10 (as all PAF fighters are modified to use american sidewinders)

So for JF-17 you can add Aim-120c and AIM-9x and for Mki I forgot to add the R-23

you need to have software codes to integrate aim120C/aim9X with new planes..and americans will never software codes to paksitan for integration with JF17..because if AMRAAM is so imp it imp nough to force paksitan lower JF17 procurement and buy more AMRAAM capable F16..its business sense for them not to release AMRAAM integration details/sft.

 

[ajaybhutani]

If anythings a decade away from introduction its the LCA

Justify your statement.

LCA wont be the one carrying a large bomber payload deep into pakistani territory nor will it be the one be equiped with 10 AA missiles.

define large bomber payload here.. and why do we need bomber payload in LCA when SU30MKi is there.. we just need to put mki with payload and some AA accompanied by small LCA's as lca can do much more damage in such a scenario by switching off its radar and taking advantage of MKI's radar range and LCA's RCS.

Thunder has exellent ECM that should not be forgotten

its not about wether its excellent or not.. its about how it compares to or will compare to the counterparts its facing.. how does it compare to the ECMs in MKI's LCA's. Mig29's its gonna face.

To make it more easier to compare the 2 here are the missiles each will use

JF-17

WVR

A-darter
Aim-9m
Pl-9c

BVR

SD-10
AMRAAM (?)
T/R-Darter

Su-30mki

WVR

RD-73
Python 4 (?)

Bvr

RD-77
Derby(?)

There might be more which im unaware of:smile:

oh yeah you forgot KS172 the awacs killer..

 

[ajaybhutani]

But who can explain and make them(Indians) realize this.

its quite simple to do that ... prove that paksitan has nough money to buy such a large number of planes ... or forward to the thread where you have already proved it.

All in all, every time same counterarguments, no this is not possible, this cant be, pakistan dont have any resources. I am sick of all this:wall: . Next time i dont wanna engage that kind of conversation, not only this made us to get away from the topic:read: as well.

wether you accept it or not paksitan cannot spend more than 4-5 % of its GDP( i.e 4 B $ today) on defence.. and maybe a bit more by diverting the funds etc etc.. but all this is has to be spent judiciously and buying planes for 1.5 -2 B $ a year for next 5 years is definitely not such a big requirement for them,.. they have other things to buy too..
in other words its a costly expenditure for paksitan to make... ( think about what they will have to compromise for doing such a heavy expenditure... like putting SAM's.. reduced money in pilot training.. or more subs etc etc..


maybe this argument will make you understand ..
If paksitan could buy 200 planes by 2010..and of course more after 2010.. americans would have already offered them a TOT of F16.. even the engine ToT.. and of course the overall cost of acquiring a single plane would have turned out cheaper operationally for paksitan compensating for higher initial cost.. ( and americans wont even mind giving soft loans for such an order will they? )..
face it paksitan can ill afford to buy so many planes..

 

[Kaiser]

Shakaut aziz has recently announced pakistan's GDP is 145 billion

Lets not go into economics

Dont forget the JF-17 is 10-15 million, J-10 at 20-25 million, F-16's at 40 million

Know lets see
200 x 15,000,000 = 3 billion
100 x 25,000,000 = 2.5 Billion
60 x 40,000,000 = 2.4 Billion

Total for Fighter purchases 7.9 billion
Pakistan's defence budget know alittle over 5 billion per year
Does not include US military AID and various other defence allocations

Also dont forget while pakistan has only been buying a few cheap chinese fighters for the past few decades it has saved up ALOT of money whereby India went off buying Mki's, mirages Migs, etc...

So dont worry PAF will get whatever it wants its just a matter of time

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stick to the thread which is JF-17 vs. MKI

 

[Kaiser]

I never said I was 100% sure the AMRAAM or AIM-9x would be integrated I said it might be a possibility as all Fighters in the PAF are integrated with Sidewinder because of there great performances and reliability

 

[A.Rahman]

you need to have software codes to integrate aim120C/aim9X with new planes..and americans will never software codes to paksitan for integration with JF17..because if AMRAAM is so imp it imp nough to force paksitan lower JF17 procurement and buy more AMRAAM capable F16..its business sense for them not to release AMRAAM integration details/sft.

Good point, I will look up about the software issue. we are getting SD-10 with JF-17.

PL-12


The PL-12 [Pili = Thunderbolt, or Pen Lung = Air Dragon] SD-10 (PL-12) active radar-guided medium-range air-to-air missile program is now in the test phase. This air-to-air missile program, also called Project 129 or R129, was previously thought to be associated with the purchase or possible license-production of the Russian R-77 (AA-12 Adder) medium-range radar-guided air-to-air missile.
While Project 129 will use technologies from the Vympel R-77, it will have a Chinese developed airframe and a Chinese propulsion unit. The missile is thought to correspond to the PL-12 designation, which is also associated with the SD-10 designation, possibly for export purposes. Like the basic R-77, Project 129 appears to have a body diameter of 200 mm., with a length of around 3.7 meters (12.1 ft.). Unlike the R-77, which has narrow-span mid-body wings and rectangular lattice control fins at the rear, the Project 129 airframe configuration is more orthodox. It has four triangular mid-body wings and four triangular fins at the rear. China initially tried to address its beyond visual range [BVR] needs by reverse-engineering the semiactive AIM-7 Sparrow, in a program designated PL-10. This effort proved unsuccessful. China then purchased around 100 Aspide missiles from Italy--the eventual intent being the license-manufacture of the missile, to be known as PL-11. This deal collapsed as a result of the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre

AIM-120

AIM-120 is an all weather, radar guided, air-to-air missile with launch-and-leave capability in both the beyond-visual-range and within-visual-range arenas, enabling a single aircraft to simultaneously engage multiple targets with multiple missiles. The U.S. Air Force and Navy, as well as several foreign military forces use AIM-120. Currently employed by the F-15C, F-15E, F-16, and F/A-18C/D, AIM-120 will also be employed by the F/A-18E/F and F-22.
The AIM-120B missile resulted from the Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) Producibility Enhancement Program. Major improvements in the missile included a new digital processor, erasable programmable read only memory, and five electronic unit hardware chassis upgrades. AIM-120B is in production for foreign military sales only.
AIM-120C was modified by clipping its wings to reduce its box size from 17.4 to 12.5 inches to allow internal carriage in the F-22. Block change lethality improvements are being incorporated into the missile from Lot 8 and beyond, culminating in a new warhead and lengthened rocket motor in Lot 12. All current U.S. deliveries are of AIM-120C configuration.
AIM-120 contributes to Joint Vision 2010 by providing the warfighter with a precision engagement weapon

 

[ajaybhutani]

Shakaut aziz has recently announced pakistan's GDP is 145 billion

I would like to news stating this.
What i have is this:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html

Who knows more about pakistani GDP? CIA or the PM of Pakistan?

Lets not go into economics

military cant be discussed without economic feasibility.

Thats why our GDP is increasing

Dont forget the JF-17 is 10-15 million, J-10 at 20-25 million, F-16's at 40 million

thats just the cost of the planes..( and in case of JF17 just projected figure.. we still dont know if that just the airframe and engine cost or even includes avionics.... it doesnt even include the initial investment needed in manufacturing facilities).
it doesnt spares,weapons etc... factors that directly doubles up the cost procurement of the plane by 2-3 times
.. please look at details of recent f16 blk52 purchases by countries like Greece. and real costs of the contracts....lemme give you some figures.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/05/11b-to-upgrade-turkish-f16-fleet/index.php

the total value of the contract "as high as $3.1 billion in return for"
I havent spent much time in finding the "good links" but you can go ahead and search for one if you want.The only point is cost of the plane is not the only cost of the procurment program.. and for new planes it can make the cost double or even triple.. per unit plane..

Know lets see
200 x 15,000,000 = 3 billion
100 x 25,000,000 = 2.5 Billion
60 x 40,000,000 = 2.4 Billion

from the above reason i gave we can clearly double the procurement cost of both JF17 and J10 and make cost of F16 as more than 1.5.. making the total figure as
6+5+3.6 = 14.6B$. now thats a big number isnt it..???

Total for Fighter purchases 7.9 billion
Pakistan's defence budget know alittle over 5 billion per year
Does not include US military AID and various other defence allocations

isnt total US aid for next year reduced to only 300mn$. and there are restriction that you have to buy american stuff with it..( not to mention the speculations that it cannnot be used to buy F16's).
again for all these fundings it comes for a cost.. i.e. the cost of waging wars like jehad etc in J&K.. fighting taliban etc in border areas.. that itself costs money too..

Also dont forget while pakistan has only been buying a few cheap chinese fighters for the past few decades it has saved up ALOT of money whereby India went off buying Mki's, mirages Migs, etc...

first please explain me the concept of saving the money..Does pakistani govt allow PAF to have a non lapsable funds etc where it can save the money it hasnt spent... in fact is PAF even saving on funds allocated to it..
If not then please remember that pakistan needs to invest on the whole in all parts of its military.. from planes to SAMs to missiles to nukes to subs to frigades. to ASW to tanks to anti tank helicopters to support planes to new equipment for the army to paying for wages and training.. peace time operations of the armed forces.. thats a lot of money please look at the percentage figures out of 5 B$ available to pakistani military for really buying equipments and what percentage goes for operational expenditures like salary fuel.. etc etc..

So dont worry PAF will get whatever it wants its just a matter of time

rest assured i am not worried .. but i do want to know how can paksitan get all this.. ??

Stick to the thread which is JF-17 vs. MKI

i am sticking to the thread.. its a simple question when will JF17 vs MKI really happen and what will be the most probable aircrafts around.. and that cannot be answered without knowing how many airplanes are actually there in PAF at that time..
again i am quite against beliefs here that PAF will get JF17 in 2007. and i have already placed my reasons for the same in another thread in this forum..
Read comments of HighSea( he is an American Aeronautic Engineer..and was involved in designs of american 4th gen aircrafts)

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=9716&page=7&pp=20

 

[melb4aust]

I am still not what we are discussing here, GDP, A-A-Missiles or Aircraft Comparison?
All of this in 1 post.

But any way, as Kaisar said he's not even sure about AIM-120 and me 2. It is unlikely that US is gonna sell that to us. Yeah on the other hand Pakistan have good chances of having PL-12.

AS far as buying aircrafts, its not easy and simple it takes alot of time to think and decide what to go for, even when countries declare, what they are up for or what they are gonna go for they usually change their decisions with the period of time. The perfect examples are india & Pakistan i.e F-16 issue later decided to go fo J-10's as well, but likely to have grippen in ther inventory. Similarly india's 126 MRCA, they decided and declared to induct Mirage-4000, actually didnt finalise their decision then backed off from it. And still looking for some thing.