JF17 versus MKI

[ajaybhutani]

we will use F10 and F16s against MKI, not thunder!. it will be used for the rest of IAF Jets.:bat:

F 10 is not in paksitani arsenal.. and F16's currently in arsenal are just older non BVR ones.. even JF17 isnt in yet. why are you comparing all the planes currently non operational in PAF to compete with something operational in IAF. wouldnt a better comparison be stuff that will be coming in IAF in next few years.. like MRCA.. LCA .. more advanced MKI( with irbis , brahmos) etc..

 

[MOO]

I think he meant to say that the J-10 had done quite well against the PLAAF Su-30MKK. Overall the Su-30MKK was said to be equal to US F15E and for a prototype model of J-10 to successfilly defeat it than Im sure the J-10 will do just fine.

 

[ajaybhutani]

Let me give some hints.

sounds more like you have given a quiz to we students and are trying to give us hints to an answer you already have in mind.. If you know the answer then why are u even starting a thread ??

JF17's in the air will turn off radar and sneak up to fire BVR.

how will they fire BVR with their radars off..?? are u taking in a scenario where JF17 is flying with an AWACS while MKI is not.. ( of course MKI will mostly not fly with awacs..as they are deep penetration strike).. if yes .. then its definitely not a MKI vs JF17 but just an analysis of a war time scenario ..

All will attack the ground attack configurated MKI's. When targets are safe the mission is safe. 4 other will scrambled to fly head on BVR... Starting BVR and going into WVR arena.

there are a lot of parameters to take into account here.
do you intend to say that JF17 can slip into MKI's WVR range without getting detected.. or can fire a BVR missile without getting detected....
1. please check up and support the claim with some RCS .. and radar range figures..
2. since you are account for JF17 and missile SD10 which are still in dev.. and the awacs which is still not in PAF's arsenal.. i'll take in a few simple stuff with MKI.. like brahmos and KS172 awacs killer missiles.. both under development..
So a MKis will kill AWACS from a distance of 300 kms. with pairs of KS172's... the game will be what happens first .. wether mki kills the awacs or JF17's kill the MKI's..
.. one of the major responsibilites of PAF fighters will be to protect the awacs.. as they are too costly to loose.
2. what would a standard MKI mission look like it will be MKI's carrying a Brahmos with A2A missiles to destroy a strategic target.. a brahmos like weapon has good nough of a range to not even worrying about entering Pakistani airspace.. or coming in tracking range of paksitani awacs.. ( of course paksitan wouldnt like to operate its AWACS too near the border due to a danger from border missiles and mass attack from Phalcon led IAF squadrons..( as phalcon has a much larger range.. and IAF has much more planes.. ).... and AWACS too far away are useless.. due to smaller width of paksitani airspace..

Heavy MKI's don't have that much chance against light agile fighter.

1. the question is will all the MKI's be in A2G role or it will be a mix of A2g and A2A mki's with A2A mki's protecting the A2G mki's .. or even a combo of MKI's with A2G M2k's and LCAs.. frankly PAF airspace is not wide nough to call for a real long range strike that MKI is designed for..so it would call for a mostly mission with 2-3 mki's acting as mini awacs(for the missions where PHALCONS are not needed).. accompanied by M2k's and jags for ground strike and LCA for A2A...of course LCA's and M2ks will use the radar range of MKI's to fire missiles.

They will not waste fuel or energy. If those MKI's are gone

its a big if with too many parameters ..

there is little chance others will stay and fight a terrible WVR battle with smaller planes that will get more and more support. But then again... I am not in charge...

again you are assuming a highly favourable scenario where paksitan will have numerical superiority and with awacs support.. if its such an imp mission why would india not back up its detection range with PHALCONS( as they dont even need to be near the place of fight due to their long range..).. and green pines installed along the borders..
and again why would india send out only 4 planes if it knows theres a possibility of awacs in the region.. ??

 

[ajaybhutani]

I think he meant to say that the J-10 had done quite well against the PLAAF Su-30MKK.

look at the differences between MKI and MKK before classing them together..
MKK carries NIIP N001VE radar which is much inferior to the N011M carried by MKI..
MKK doesnt have TVC.. while MKI has it....
please explain me how can a comparison with MKK been taken as a basis to call MKI as inferior to J10..

Overall the Su-30MKK was said to be equal to US F15E

and please show me how??

and for a prototype model of J-10 to successfilly defeat it

under what scenarios.. ?? of course MKK is not optimized for WVR at all... if you pitch it against an agile plane like J10 in WVR the answer is obvious..
was the test done in BVR.. with which missiles?? actually what operational missiles do J10 carry currently??

than Im sure the J-10 will do just fine.

we are not looking at how sure you are .. but at whats right..

 

[ajaybhutani]

All of you seem to deny what Musharraf claimed in an interview that thunder has better avionics than Falcons in PAF inventory. If musharraf is right than naturally one should pitch thunders against Sukhoi.

the falcons in paf inventory cannot even fire BVR.. of course thunder will perform better as it is planned to use BVR missiles.

 

[Owais]

F 10 is not in paksitani arsenal.. and F16's currently in arsenal are just older non BVR ones.. even JF17 isnt in yet. why are you comparing all the planes currently non operational in PAF to compete with something operational in IAF. wouldnt a better comparison be stuff that will be coming in IAF in next few years.. like MRCA.. LCA .. more advanced MKI( with irbis , brahmos) etc..

I am talking about F16 MLU (block 50), not BVRless F16 A/B. pakistan will upgrade its Falcons by end of this year. also, the decision to buy F10 and new F16 C/D has been taken by the government more than a month ago.
can you tell me what kind of MRCA is IAF going for??
and yes! very advance MKI against F16 block 52/50. which only have radar advantage over Falcon.
and ofcourse! the LCA(the deadliest counter against thunder )!! which will be developed in some 6 - 10 years.

 

[Bull]

I am talking about F16 MLU (block 50), not BVRless F16 A/B. pakistan will upgrade its Falcons by end of this year. also, the decision to buy F10 and new F16 C/D has been taken by the government more than a month ago.
can you tell me what kind of MRCA is IAF going for??
and yes! very advance MKI against F16 block 52/50. which only have radar advantage over Falcon.
and ofcourse! the LCA(the deadliest counter against thunder )!! which will be developed in some 6 - 10 years.

The assupmtions were made by the guy who made the post,to suit his view point.Ajay was just countering it with assumptions to suit his view point.

JF 17 is not in service,F 16 blk 50 is not in service,MLU of F16 blk 20 has not started,SD 10 is not in service.All these were used to fight the existant MKI.

The decision was taken and was then postponed after the kashmir EQ ,IIRC

 

[Kaiser]

The assupmtions were made by the guy who made the post,to suit his view point.Ajay was just countering it with assumptions to suit his view point.

JF 17 is not in service,F 16 blk 50 is not in service,MLU of F16 blk 20 has not started,SD 10 is not in service.All these were used to fight the existant MKI.

The decision was taken and was then postponed after the kashmir EQ ,IIRC

True but I think you dont get the point that ALL those fighters will be in service within a few years :smile:

Currently pakistan's main strategy is to destroy iaf fighters before they get into the air (while at base) via bombs, In the future the main strategy will remane the same but the PAF will also see extensive AA combat

 

[ajaybhutani]

True but I think you dont get the point that ALL those fighters will be in service within a few years :smile:

Currently pakistan's main strategy is to destroy iaf fighters before they get into the air (while at base) via bombs, In the future the main strategy will remane the same but the PAF will also see extensive AA combat

the point is by then a lot more will be in indian inventory too..( do you really think india will sit and wait for paksitan to catch up.. before making any more purchases)..
there wont be a considerable presence of JF17 in PAF before 2012-14(it takes time to produce the plane and train pilots and develop tactics around them).. at best.. by then MKi production line would be about to close.. i.e. 190 mki's itself(even the upgrade program might have started by then..or about to start for MKI ).. .. some 50-60 odd JF17 in PAF..and some 60 odd F16.. add to it the LCA production line up.. and the new MRCA's... in the line.. add to it the the weapons like brahmos .. awacs killer KS172.. etc etc.. i just added all these previously missing variables into the discussion.

 

[melb4aust]

the point is by then a lot more will be in indian inventory too..( do you really think india will sit and wait for paksitan to catch up.. before making any more purchases)..
there wont be a considerable presence of JF17 in PAF before 2012-14(it takes time to produce the plane and train pilots and develop tactics around them).. at best.. by then MKi production line would be about to close.. i.e. 190 mki's itself(even the upgrade program might have started by then..or about to start for MKI ).. .. some 50-60 odd JF17 in PAF..and some 60 odd F16.. add to it the LCA production line up.. and the new MRCA's... in the line.. add to it the the weapons like brahmos .. awacs killer KS172.. etc etc.. i just added all these previously missing variables into the discussion.

:disappointed: 2012 you're kidding right!!!
2008 man, and i can bet on that, and one more thing exclude LCA for the next 3 on-coming decades, alright.
If you wanna talk about, then yeah by the end of 2010, i would be looking around 50odd mki's and 126 MRCA's if india dont late their decision again. From pakistan side it will 50 JF-17 thunders, around 40 J-10's and a mixture of new and old 60-70 F-16's.
Now go ahead...........

 

[sigatoka]

Currently pakistan's main strategy is to destroy iaf fighters before they get into the air (while at base) via bombs,

With what? Sattelite Laser Weapons??

I hope this is not the strategy because in 71 it failed miserably. Just becoz the Israelis did it in 64 to Egypt doesnt mean it can be repeated. Every nation after 64 gave serious consideration to protecting aircraft bases with AA weapons and built stronger housing structures and dispersed aircraft among more facilities.

In fact Israel has never been able to repeat the success of 64 by destroying opponents aircraft on the ground.

 

[ajaybhutani]

:disappointed: 2012 you're kidding right!!!

i am not kidding dude..

2008 man, and i can bet on that,

2008 is when paksitan will start getting JF17's and that too is quite optimistic( the engine issue is still not solved.. new engine integration hasnt started..and theres only a single plane for testing).. a half of production will go to PLAAF. 15-20 planes a year would be the max as
1. its a new plane so a lot has to be changed after the first lot..post production problems .. production 30 planes a year of new plane itself is quite a heavy no for a new plane.
2.even F16s are getting procured..( i doubt the F16 procurement will finish by then..)


it takes 2-3 years to learn about the plane.. i.e. train the pilots ... develop tactics based on JF17 etc..you just cannot send a pilot who isnt trained on a plane to war.. can you..
its a lot of time before JF17 will be really usable.. after it starts getting produced

and one more thing exclude LCA for the next 3 on-coming decades, alright.

oh ya.. why not paksitan can get all it wants but india with much more money cannot get a plane..
FYI.. LCA project is at a much more advanced stage than JF17 project..

If you wanna talk about, then yeah by the end of 2010, i would be looking around 50odd mki's and 126 MRCA's if india dont late their decision again.

we already have more than 50 MKIs rite now.. what do you expect we are stopping our production lines.. or hundred of MKI's were destroyed by pakistan on ground..
end of production cycle of mki is 2012.. i.e we will have at least some 150 odd MKI's by 2010.. for MRCA's we will no have 126 MRCA's by that time..
what we will have is some 20 more M2k-5s as a stop gap measure..and a few new MRCA's some 40-50 max..

From pakistan side it will 50 JF-17 thunders, around 40 J-10's and a mixture of new and old 60-70 F-16's.
Now go ahead...........

lets look at the cost of all these planes..
JF17 15 mn * 50 = 750 mn..
J10's (of course it should cost at least 25mn$-30mn$ + or else buying JF17 is senseless. )
i.e. 1000mn
F16( 30 mn $ each)
2100mn
3850mn $
all the missiles bombs etc etc..( usually known to double the cost of the plane)..
so cost is 7.7 B$.. and all this is without cost escalation..
this will mean an annual outlay of 1.5-2 B$ each for next 5 years just to buy the planes.. and induct them.. do you think pakistan can affort to spend that much of money from their 4 B$ budget( and its not growing cosiderably up)... most of it goes in maintaining hundreds of thousands of soldiers they have.. in PA.
then buying tanks.. and artillary weapons.. missiles.. nuclear bombs.. frigades and destroyers and subs for navy.. anti air defence systems.. they all cost a lot of money..
a no of them will be above these planes in paksitans priority list ...
furthermore you are talking about induction 3 new planes(even F16 blk50 is kinda new to PAF.. as its too different from current F16 in PAF).. in 4 years time.. i'll see it when it happens..

oh yes .. what about the cost of manufacturing facilities for JF17 its avionics.. SD10 etc etc..
you are talking about inducting 30 - 40 new planes every year in PAF... and that too technologically much more advanced planes..as PAF doenst have any BVR capability.. thats a pretty big number for peace time.

 

[Owais]

LCA project is at a much more advanced stage than JF17 project

can you tell us more about LCA. I didn't find any source explaining this statement.

 

[Kaiser]

the point is by then a lot more will be in indian inventory too..( do you really think india will sit and wait for paksitan to catch up.. before making any more purchases)..
there wont be a considerable presence of JF17 in PAF before 2012-14(it takes time to produce the plane and train pilots and develop tactics around them).. at best.. by then MKi production line would be about to close.. i.e. 190 mki's itself(even the upgrade program might have started by then..or about to start for MKI ).. .. some 50-60 odd JF17 in PAF..and some 60 odd F16.. add to it the LCA production line up.. and the new MRCA's... in the line.. add to it the the weapons like brahmos .. awacs killer KS172.. etc etc.. i just added all these previously missing variables into the discussion.

LOL
Pakistan will recieve its first JF-17 by the end of the year, also production of the JF-17 will be at 15-20 from until 2008 then after that itll be at 25+ depending on orders. By 2014 pakistan could migh as well already have all 150 JF-17 with more on order. You can stop dreaming of having 190 mki in iaf inventory until 2015 and that at the minimum since its already running into big money problem.

60 odd F-16!?
If pakistan orders 75 F-16's today it will recieve them all within 2 years. Pakistan is looking for 62 F-16's which it will likely order by years end and then recieve all by 2009 (at maximum) so tell me where the hell does the 60 figure come from?

LOL
India will likely choose the MRCA by 2009 and then recvieve all by 2015 (at minimum) so you can forget about india having another MRCA order
You can also stop dreaming about the LCA ever even coming into production. My guess is india will recieve its first LCA's in 2014 by then china would be almost done with the J-XX and pakistan could have its own JF-17 with AESA

Here are the current and likely future aircrafts orders for the PAF and IAF

PAF
-? F-16 (but over 60)
-150 JF-17 (another order for 100 very likely)
-?J-10 (likely over 100)

IAF
-190 SU-30mki
-126 MRCA
-? LCA (likely over 100)

 

[Kaiser]

:disappointed: 2012 you're kidding right!!!
2008 man, and i can bet on that, and one more thing exclude LCA for the next 3 on-coming decades, alright.
If you wanna talk about, then yeah by the end of 2010, i would be looking around 50odd mki's and 126 MRCA's if india dont late their decision again. From pakistan side it will 50 JF-17 thunders, around 40 J-10's and a mixture of new and old 60-70 F-16's.
Now go ahead...........

By 2010 you will be looking at 75 JF-17 (not 50), all F-16's pakistan wishes to order, and 40-50 J-10 (advanced variants)

I can well acure you pakistan will likely order 62 F-16's and likely recieve all of them by 2009