JF17:---More Hard Points Bigger Engine---Why!!!!!

[The SC]

Since the topic is based on Bigger Engines, here is a comparison of speed to date, here is a video clip I found last week...

The JF-17 currently ranks #32 out of 36. Now I do want to point out that this list has some dated Aircrafts, aswell.

Can't compare the JF-17 to the other fighters, it is a lightweight fighter, while the others are either medium-weights or heavy-weights.. JF-17 as of now stands alone and is the only sophisticated fighter in its category.. it has its own niche in the market.. if the prices can keep being competitive.. this used to be the niche of the F-5 tiger I/II, the Mirage F-1 and the mig-21..and they are no more..RIP..

 

[ziaulislam]

You are right. In my view people in their glee at the victory of PAF have failed to see quite a few things which will impact any engagement.
Before I come to that I would like to make a comment on the JFT and its current engine. It is a standard modus operandi of any aviation project by a country that it would not do anything tocjeoperdise its own market. For the Chinese that market is the J10. They have a project which has taken them nearly 15 years to bring to fruition and another 10 to mature. Why would they jeoperdise it by building a contemporary product? So this talk of JFT being 25%larger would not have made any sense as the Chinese already had a competitor in the market.
Secondly PAF had another issue, lack of a cheap supplier of suitable reliable engine. For reasons which I am uncertain of(although the Indians would say it was pressure from them that AL31 FN was not approved) the Russians did not clear AL31 series engine and I suspect the Chinese did not push either. The EU and US offerings were sanction prone and expensive. So wheee would you procure engines from? After much tooing and froing the Russians approved the sale of RD93 AND THAT IS WHAT YOU WENT WITH.
So this whole debate in my view is futile in that there was no contemporary engine available.
On the events which transpired on the 27th one critical factor is being missed out. PAF was the planner and executor of this event. It is therefore assumed that it had planned this venture in advance and placed its assets in accordance. IAF were intercepting. It was bad planning or oversight or sheer stupidity that IAF walked into the trap set by PAF. IT may have been that the EW envoironment was such that IAF lost situational awareness. Now in the reverse scenario, PAF chose to abandon chase into IOK on the 26th quite wisely.
However in a war scenario with multiple engagements both on home soil and enemy play ground would the results always be the same? Obviously Not. However the over all result will go in favour of the side that is more aware situationally. I would love to say that PAF will come out on top but not being a sooth sayer I would think the advantage may lie with PAF but it would get mauled as much as IAF.
CURRENTLY PAF modus operandi is to detect fire BVR nad disengage and leave the rest for the second tem while going for a refill. I dont think that carrying more than 4 BVRs plus 2 WVRs would be beneficial for this strategy. I dont think I need to explain this. If that is the case in my view the most emphasis ahould be on AESA radar and HMDS for HOBS. Once this situation arises in WVR what we can achieve is destruction of both platforms offensive and defending.
So in my humble opinion the benefit is in AESA, DERS(-for 2 SD10A/B) and HMDS with HOBS.
A

i am not an expert but if Pakistan can find a variant of ws 13/rd93 than can provide thrust similar to GEf414(an evoluation of GEf404, GEf414 has dry thrust of 57kn as compard to 49 of rd93 and GE404) than thunder can evolve into something better especially if engine is more efficient as well. this can allow thunder carry more payload, more range without chnaging the aircraft alot..

it will still be no where near the J10/f16c but will take the thunder to likes of Gripen E and mriage2000 in performance

IMO, block 3 in addition to better avionics/radar also needs just an additional hard point for pods with fuel extension(be it internal or CFTs), and a better engine of similar class to compliment this..(just like GEf414)

 

[araz]

i am not an expert but if Pakistan can find a variant of ws 13/rd93 than can provide thrust similar to GEf414(an evoluation of GEf404, GEf414 has dry thrust of 57kn as compard to 49 of rd93 and GE404) than thunder can evolve into something better especially if engine is more efficient as well. this can allow thunder carry more payload, more range without chnaging the aircraft alot..

it will still be no where near the J10/f16c but will take the thunder to likes of Gripen E and mriage2000 in performance

IMO, block 3 in addition to better avionics/radar also needs just an additional hard point for pods with fuel extension(be it internal or CFTs), and a better engine of similar class to compliment this..(just like GEf414)

The problem is there is currently no news on where RD93MA is in development phase. We do not have an alternate available. So there are a lot of ifs with no definitive answer. WS13 is no where to be found and frankly I dont think PAF will risk the project with a new engine.
I agree with you regarding the additional HP for a POD . The rest of the items on my list should make the THUNDER a fierce opponent to anyone who invades Pak territory.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

Hence the aesa in block iii sir

I am talking about ground based early warning, tracking, and fire control radars. You don't have eyes in the air 24x7.

 

[ziaulislam]

The problem is there is currently no news on where RD93MA is in development phase. We do not have an alternate available. So there are a lot of ifs with no definitive answer. WS13 is no where to be found and frankly I dont think PAF will risk the project with a new engine.
I agree with you regarding the additional HP for a POD . The rest of the items on my list should make the THUNDER a fierce opponent to anyone who invades Pak territory.
A

bottom line is evolution of jf17 is tied to rd93MA..

3 years ago(2015) there were news that engine will be ready soon but since than i havent heard anything....
if its rd93MA, PAF might opt it, WS 13 not so sure..


IMO
we know Russians can build a version of rd 93 based upon rd33mk, it really depends whether PAF wanted it and whether Russians wanted to sell it, i am sure Russian are okay with it, that leaves it upto PAF whether they are ready to pay extra

 

[Irfan Baloch]

We should focus over limited resources for project azm
As for jf17 its future upgrades be sourced from azm too as much as possible this would reduce over all cost of both systems
If we can get good orders for jf17 derived platforms more variants of it like those f16 super viper and canceled vista delta variant as competition for strike eagle f15 can be developed.

But for now we should make due with the current frame and engine and focus on sensor and ammo improvement in jf17 if Chinese come up with better engine for j31 we can use em in jf17 too

been thinking of project Azm too. its time that a state policy is made in this regard budget set aside and work started

 

[Fawadqasim1]

I am talking about ground based early warning, tracking, and fire control radars. You don't have eyes in the air 24x7.

In order to jam them comprehensively they need to deploy airborne jamming aircrafts which can
Be homed on (home on jam) which was above
The payscale of Syria.
And modern ground based aesa radar's can also
Be looked at
a robust ground based eccm system is in order also my favourite kolchuga type esms can help a lot in such situations.
Please comment

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Even though I have talked about it a lot about getting the J10's---but a 25% larger JF17 is not a J10---and a J10 is not a replacement for the 25% larger JF17---.

The aircraft J10 would be looked at its own merits and demerits---. The engineering and design function of both these aircraft is different due to the little winglets on the sides of the J10 and the intake under the belly---.

The one purpose that the J10 serves currently is adding additional aircraft in parallel to the production of the JF17's---.

On the 27th of february---Paf was woefully low on fighter aircraft---.

 

[CriticalThought]

In order to jam them comprehensively they need to deploy airborne jamming aircrafts which can
Be homed on (home on jam) which was above
The payscale of Syria.
And modern ground based aesa radar's can also
Be looked at
a robust ground based eccm system is in order also my favourite kolchuga type esms can help a lot in such situations.
Please comment

This is how air defence works. At the front, you have early warning radars. These are not precise radars, but it is also more difficult to jam them. They might utilize UHF/VHF band so even stealth radars cannot evade them. You have trained operators manning them. As soon as they see something suspicious, they might scramble jets. At this point, the unknown object is a bogey. Along with the jets, an AEWACS may take off. Conversely, if planes are on CAP, they might be called in. These eyes in the air allow you to get a more precise picture.

In all of this, if a hostile enemy manages to evade your early warning system, you are potentially in deep trouble. Your jets and AEWACs will not even come into play.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

This is how air defence works. At the front, you have early warning radars. These are not precise radars, but it is also more difficult to jam them. They might utilize UHF/VHF band so even stealth radars cannot evade them. You have trained operators manning them. As soon as they see something suspicious, they might scramble jets. At this point, the unknown object is a bogey. Along with the jets, an AEWACS may take off. Conversely, if planes are on CAP, they might be called in. These eyes in the air allow you to get a more precise picture.

In all of this, if a hostile enemy manages to evade your early warning system, you are potentially in deep trouble. Your jets and AEWACs will not even come into play.

I know that sir but jamming all of them is a feat
and to achieve that feat you need to be a super power like usa and your adversary should be likes of Syria iraq etc we are at loggerheads with a sopa pawa but still you are absolutely right we need to augment our ground based early warning systems what are your suggestions sir
And sir our intelligence agency alhamdulillah
Is unjammable.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

if you are talking about evading them( early warning ground based uhf vhf radars) there is one effective way of doing it and it's a well planned well executed tree top low low low night surprise attack but sir with indian planners and pilots it will be a real surprise.
@CriticalThought. your comments sir

 

[Signalian]

At the front, you have early warning radars. These are not precise radars, but it is also more difficult to jam them. They might utilize UHF/VHF band so even stealth radars cannot evade them.

Higher Frequency bands are used in Radars like C, S, L K etc unless you can specify a Radar in PAF or PA AD using Radars with lower frequency band than these. These UHF and VHF are used in communications mostly.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Higher Frequency bands are used in Radars like C, S, L K etc unless you can specify a Radar in PAF or PA AD using Radars with lower frequency band than these. These UHF and VHF are used in communications mostly.

Sir we don't have VHF UHF early warning radars?

 

[Signalian]

Sir we don't have VHF UHF early warning radars?

Early warning if means AEW like Erieye, then it shows S-Band. Don't know about ZDK-03.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Early warning if means AEW like Erieye, then it shows S-Band. Don't know about ZDK-03.

no sir ground based.