JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[AsifIjaz]

JF17 will not mature into a mature, modern and a fearsome aircraft till PAC takes a decision and convinces AVIC to work together for some major structural changes. The new block 3 should be locked up with an improved or a newer engine option (be it RD93MA, RD33 or WS13) and then structural modifications should be decided so as to allow ample time to conduct assessments including the wind tunnel tests. The way forward is to think outside the box.

JF17 must carry extra fuel, more armaments and have a better ground clearance. If wings can not be extended then the length / Spine must be extended or increased in height (like the one on the dual seat model) so as to accommodate at least an extra 750 to 1000 ltrs. The nose cone must also be increased in dia so as to incorporate both an AESA and an IRST within the nose cone itself potentially leaving a vital weapon station free for armament. Going by the same principle a newer pod station should be evaluated near the air intakes. The above if coupled with a bigger wing area can lead to an increased area which can be used for landing gear folding into wings / extra fuel in wings and/or extra station per wing.

I have read the comments by Deino and rest of the fellow members but none have said that it is not doable. Difficult, yes.... impossible, No. We must start now so as to have a final configuration and locked down specs by mid next year. Things are changing on our eastern border. MMRCA is no more, the cut down numbers of rafael may or may not come. Never the less PAF should watch the evolving and unending rafael scenario but what we must be really concerned with is India getting Gripen NG with or without local production. In either of two purchases by India, or in case of current or upgraded Su30s.... if JF17 or any other future aircraft is to give a serious and fearsome competition then the above requirements must be fulfilled one way or the other.

 

[slayerAqib]

That is your opinion keep it to yourself.

You didn't spend effort in using the search feature and nor did you value other people's contribution made over several years on this forum.

Instead you opted to open a thread so that your individual lazy request could be served.
Your total messages including this is 7; not sure why they let you open the thread @Horus

You and your behavior represents what is wrong with Pakistan's education sector.

Sorry

 

[Jhon Smith]

You are right boss though these 3 got my eyes firstly. I am all hopeful for some serious and further developments reference to JF-17 B and FC-31 as well as the WS-13 Engine.

Untill PAC not start to produce engine, its not esay to sell JF 17 to other countries and to design a jet engine is not hard . Many of my friends r working on turbo engine and noise control. it will take 2 year from today if 300 Engineer graduates from LUMS/FAST/NUST/engineering uni Lahore start to work on engine in Pak ..


There is course on how to design engine its open course at MIT , people at PAC can do that course to start working on engine .
Introduction to Propulsion Systems
Course Description
This course presents aerospace propulsive devices as systems, with functional requirements and engineering and environmental limitations along with requirements and limitations that constrain design choices. Both air-breathing and rocket engines are covered, at a level which enables rational integration of the propulsive system into an overall vehicle design. Mission analysis, fundamental performance relations, and exemplary design solutions are presented.

Preliminary design of a Satellite launcher We wish to produce a first-order design of a 3-stage launch vehicle to place a 3 kg. nanosatellite in a circular equatorial of 500 km. altitude. Launch will be from the Equator, in an Easterly direction. All stages will use solid propellant rocket motors with = 270, and each will have a structural mass fraction = /0 = 0.1 (i=1,2,3).

EUROJET EJ200
Approximately half the thrust of BLOODHOUND SSC is provided by a EUROJET EJ200, a highly sophisticated military turbofan normally found in the engine bay of a Eurofighter Typhoon.

Although at first sight very different from the diesel or petrol engine in your car, a gas turbine, or jet engine, is still an internal combustion engine. Air is sucked into the engine, it is compressed, fuel is added which then burns, and this expands pushing the exhaust out of the nozzle producing thrust.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Untill PAC not start to produce engine, its not esay to sell JF 17 to other countries and to design a jet engine is not hard . Many of my friends r working on turbo engine and noise control. it will take 2 year from today if 300 Engineer graduates from LUMS/FAST/NUST/engineering uni Lahore start to work on engine in Pak ..


There is course on how to design engine its open course at MIT , people at PAC can do that course to start working on engine .
Introduction to Propulsion Systems
Course Description
This course presents aerospace propulsive devices as systems, with functional requirements and engineering and environmental limitations along with requirements and limitations that constrain design choices. Both air-breathing and rocket engines are covered, at a level which enables rational integration of the propulsive system into an overall vehicle design. Mission analysis, fundamental performance relations, and exemplary design solutions are presented.

Preliminary design of a Satellite launcher We wish to produce a first-order design of a 3-stage launch vehicle to place a 3 kg. nanosatellite in a circular equatorial of 500 km. altitude. Launch will be from the Equator, in an Easterly direction. All stages will use solid propellant rocket motors with = 270, and each will have a structural mass fraction = /0 = 0.1 (i=1,2,3).

EUROJET EJ200
Approximately half the thrust of BLOODHOUND SSC is provided by a EUROJET EJ200, a highly sophisticated military turbofan normally found in the engine bay of a Eurofighter Typhoon.

Although at first sight very different from the diesel or petrol engine in your car, a gas turbine, or jet engine, is still an internal combustion engine. Air is sucked into the engine, it is compressed, fuel is added which then burns, and this expands pushing the exhaust out of the nozzle producing thrust.

LOL

May I inquire as to your area of expertise?

 

[The Eagle]

Untill PAC not start to produce engine, its not esay to sell JF 17 to other countries and to design a jet engine is not hard . Many of my friends r working on turbo engine and noise control. it will take 2 year from today if 300 Engineer graduates from LUMS/FAST/NUST/engineering uni Lahore start to work on engine in Pak ..


There is course on how to design engine its open course at MIT , people at PAC can do that course to start working on engine .
Introduction to Propulsion Systems
Course Description
This course presents aerospace propulsive devices as systems, with functional requirements and engineering and environmental limitations along with requirements and limitations that constrain design choices. Both air-breathing and rocket engines are covered, at a level which enables rational integration of the propulsive system into an overall vehicle design. Mission analysis, fundamental performance relations, and exemplary design solutions are presented.

Preliminary design of a Satellite launcher We wish to produce a first-order design of a 3-stage launch vehicle to place a 3 kg. nanosatellite in a circular equatorial of 500 km. altitude. Launch will be from the Equator, in an Easterly direction. All stages will use solid propellant rocket motors with = 270, and each will have a structural mass fraction = /0 = 0.1 (i=1,2,3).

EUROJET EJ200
Approximately half the thrust of BLOODHOUND SSC is provided by a EUROJET EJ200, a highly sophisticated military turbofan normally found in the engine bay of a Eurofighter Typhoon.

Although at first sight very different from the diesel or petrol engine in your car, a gas turbine, or jet engine, is still an internal combustion engine. Air is sucked into the engine, it is compressed, fuel is added which then burns, and this expands pushing the exhaust out of the nozzle producing thrust.

I don't know where to start with you but you really need some kind of revision while making such decisions in this subject though it isn't that easy as printed on paper.... I am not an expert but seems like subject is beyond your understanding as well my friend.

 

[Deino]

Untill PAC not start to produce engine, its not esay to sell JF 17 to other countries and to design a jet engine is not hard . Many of my friends r working on turbo engine and noise control. it will take 2 year from today if 300 Engineer graduates from LUMS/FAST/NUST/engineering uni Lahore start to work on engine in Pak ..


There is course on how to design engine its open course at MIT , people at PAC can do that course to start working on engine .

Well ... indeed You are genius, how stupid must all countries be that they did not follow Your proposal ...

As such sorry to ask, but are You only joking or simply a bit "special" ?

Deino

 

[MastanKhan]

JF17 will not mature into a mature, modern and a fearsome aircraft till PAC takes a decision and convinces AVIC to work together for some major structural changes. The new block 3 should be locked up with an improved or a newer engine option (be it RD93MA, RD33 or WS13) and then structural modifications should be decided so as to allow ample time to conduct assessments including the wind tunnel tests. The way forward is to think outside the box.

JF17 must carry extra fuel, more armaments and have a better ground clearance. If wings can not be extended then the length / Spine must be extended or increased in height (like the one on the dual seat model) so as to accommodate at least an extra 750 to 1000 ltrs. The nose cone must also be increased in dia so as to incorporate both an AESA and an IRST within the nose cone itself potentially leaving a vital weapon station free for armament. Going by the same principle a newer pod station should be evaluated near the air intakes. The above if coupled with a bigger wing area can lead to an increased area which can be used for landing gear folding into wings / extra fuel in wings and/or extra station per wing.

I have read the comments by Deino and rest of the fellow members but none have said that it is not doable. Difficult, yes.... impossible, No. We must start now so as to have a final configuration and locked down specs by mid next year. Things are changing on our eastern border. MMRCA is no more, the cut down numbers of rafael may or may not come. Never the less PAF should watch the evolving and unending rafael scenario but what we must be really concerned with is India getting Gripen NG with or without local production. In either of two purchases by India, or in case of current or upgraded Su30s.... if JF17 or any other future aircraft is to give a serious and fearsome competition then the above requirements must be fulfilled one way or the other.

Hi,

Deino is a good man---but I don't know why you gave him the credit---. He thinks it is stupid to do that and is impossible.

 

[Deino]

Hi,

Deino is a good man---but I don't know why you gave him the credit---. He thinks it is stupid to do that and is impossible.

Thanks but again to make it clear !

I never said it is impossible ... I only said it is not that easy and one change relates usually to others which in turn makes - esp. if build around a larger engine - it de facto y new aircraft and here comes my "it won't happen" argument: who will pay for that ? Surely not China, since it would result in a type closer to the J-10 ... and Pakistan ?? I don't think they can simply afford this.

As such it is "impossible" ... or unlikely.

 

[Viper0011.]

Untill PAC not start to produce engine, its not esay to sell JF 17 to other countries and to design a jet engine is not hard . Many of my friends r working on turbo engine and noise control. it will take 2 year from today if 300 Engineer graduates from LUMS/FAST/NUST/engineering uni Lahore start to work on engine in Pak ..


There is course on how to design engine its open course at MIT , people at PAC can do that course to start working on engine .
Introduction to Propulsion Systems Course Description

I know MIT and I know this course very well. But please, realize that if by taking a course like this, a country or group of people can actually design an engine, you'd have Ghana and Nigeria making their jet engines!! Jet engines are a LOT more sophisticated technology and process. A propulsion system alone isn't the only thing. Just so you know, to make the Turbine Blades, that, by itself is an extremely complex process requiring precision to the 99.9% accuracy (Six Sigma).

The quality control is so tough that about 40% of engine blades coming from the best precision machinery and robots on the planet, have to go back before they can be certified "Defect Free". And I am not talking a few inches worth of gaps in blade sizing, I am talking (1000MM)3. This is VERY serious business as in commercial applications, these engines will be taking hundreds of human lives from point A to B. And in military applications, each plane might cost over 75-100 million (like EFT, F-16 block 60+, F-15 SA, the JSF, etc). So a 100% quality and process control (with a .001 standard deviation) is ALWAYS ensured.


This course is like an overview, almost like let me show you how a Piano works and its main components. Playing piano like the Mozart is an ENTIRELY different ballgame and its extremely difficult to master. So just like Mozart was one, there is one GE and Pratt and Whitney!!!!

 

[MastanKhan]

I know MIT and I know this course very well. But please, realize that if by taking a course like this, a country or group of people can actually design an engine, you'd have Ghana and Nigeria making their jet engines!! Jet engines are a LOT more sophisticated technology and process. A propulsion system alone isn't the only thing. Just so you know, to make the Turbine Blades, that, by itself is an extremely complex process requiring precision to the 99.9% accuracy (Six Sigma). The quality control is so tough that about 40% of engine lades coming from the best precision machinery and robots on the planet, have to go back before they can be certified "Defect Free". And I am not talking a few inches worth of gaps in blade sizing, I am talking (1000M)3. This course is like an overview, almost like let me show you how a Piano works and its main components. Playing piano like the Mozart is an ENTIRELY different ballgame and its extremely difficult to master. So just like Mozart was one, there is one GE and Pratt and Whitney!!!!

Viper,

Thank you very much for your post---.

Any Tom Dick & Harry can make an atom bomb----but to build a fighter aircraft engine---only a chosen few can do that.

If it was that easy---the indians would have built it---and they even had the blue prints and total support ( no pun intended )---the it took the chinese over 10 EXTRA YEARS to get the WS13 ready for the JF17.

This engine was supposed to power it 10 years ago. It is going into the production phase now---.

Same thing with the WS10---that was to replace the engine on the J10's and the other twin engine J airrcafts---. Same thing with that engine---.

There is a genuine problem with industrial grade sabotage on nations that want to build fighter aircraft engines---.

Every nation wants some kind of short cuts---like these two chinese engines---. I guarantee that these two were sabotaged by the U S----.

The americans knew that the chinese would successfully build a fighter engine---but when and how---. The only thing the americans could do was to sabotage the percentage composition of the metals in the compressor blades.

Thru their long experience---they had found out at what composition the compressor blades would fail in how many hours----. The critical time chose was around 200 hours of operational testing---.

This time period is the stage where you are virtually sure that your machine is working fine and ready for production. It was basically the worst time for a setback---. At first you look at other issues---then you come back to the compressor blades---then you assume that there was a fault in production---you build another one and go thru the same heartache at around 200 hours---.

A couple years have passed in between---you have another blown engine---. Now you may start looking at the composition of the elements in the blade---you maybe thinking about sabotage---. Now you have to start all over on your own to find the right materials and procedure and processes.

Only a nation like china---which has a plethora of funds and a serious urgency to have their own fighter aircraft engines could do something like this in this much time---otherwise the current fighter aircraft engine is a 50 years project and when you get there----others are making engines to fly in a different dimension.

 

[Jhon Smith]

LOL

May I inquire as to your area of expertise?

Applied Physics/ mechanical engineering/ mathematics

I know MIT and I know this course very well. But please, realize that if by taking a course like this, a country or group of people can actually design an engine, you'd have Ghana and Nigeria making their jet engines!! Jet engines are a LOT more sophisticated technology and process. A propulsion system alone isn't the only thing. Just so you know, to make the Turbine Blades, that, by itself is an extremely complex process requiring precision to the 99.9% accuracy (Six Sigma).

The quality control is so tough that about 40% of engine blades coming from the best precision machinery and robots on the planet, have to go back before they can be certified "Defect Free". And I am not talking a few inches worth of gaps in blade sizing, I am talking (1000MM)3. This is VERY serious business as in commercial applications, these engines will be taking hundreds of human lives from point A to B. And in military applications, each plane might cost over 75-100 million (like EFT, F-16 block 60+, F-15 SA, the JSF, etc). So a 100% quality and process control (with a .001 standard deviation) is ALWAYS ensured.


This course is like an overview, almost like let me show you how a Piano works and its main components. Playing piano like the Mozart is an ENTIRELY different ballgame and its extremely difficult to master. So just like Mozart was one, there is one GE and Pratt and Whitney!!!!

Hello!! I am not sure, how to really explain on what are viable and what r not achievable to perform in engineering by local Pak engineers,.

lets say! on
(1) First how precise level we can achieve in bending and cutting or sharpening the metal for jet engine? U mentioned 10 raise power minus 6 mm? Have u seen the nozzle of fuel injector in Honda cars?? there holes and distance between them is almost the scale that we need in jet engine!! if that r possible, than same applies in jet engine.

watch that digram and let me know what precision level in term of distance r deem in injector of car?
on fun note Now need to add water injection into the afterburner to add some more thrust and help drive temps down

Before I explain further , Can you answer me Y we r not producing petrol engine of car(Honda/toyta) in PAk??? does that r impossible too?? if u understand the logic of it u may understand further!!


Lets say in that way give me ur required precision demand , here I could show u how sharp (in nano meters) blade and what level u need is even available in market, u can order...


PIA overhaul jet engine by own , what parts they need and what precision they deem to fix there engine , they use to order it in international market!! Its lame excuse that we dont have certain robotic tool to polish/cut/bend/design engine blade!! the best cutting machine (even the laser cutter r available in Korean/chines/Japanese/German by vendors )

one need just a programme to feed in available Laser cutter for certain size of cutting

May I inquire as to your area of expertise?

Well ... indeed You are genius, how stupid must all countries be that they did not follow Your proposal ...

As such sorry to ask, but are You only joking or simply a bit "special" ?

Deino

I am not joking man!! need to move *** rather to say Can’t Start, Won’t Start: as its difficult and other countries has not did , how can we do? v not did many things ( v even not produce the car engine) shall v need Tricks for Overcoming Procrastination.... WHhile India r producing the Satellite vehicles and we can't make jet engine??

Watch that under-garde student , he and his lab fellows do more fun more party , even drink alcohol on weekends and swimming in summer , despite that hey r producing prototype in small labs .. OK at leaset PAC can start to make prototype in labs.. many of my batch-mates works in Nescom , Atomic energy commission and PAC Kamra!!

 

[Paksanity]

Thanks but again to make it clear !

I never said it is impossible ... I only said it is not that easy and one change relates usually to others which in turn makes - esp. if build around a larger engine - it de facto y new aircraft and here comes my "it won't happen" argument: who will pay for that ? Surely not China, since it would result in a type closer to the J-10 ... and Pakistan ?? I don't think they can simply afford this.

As such it is "impossible" ... or unlikely.

Actually, after all this hassle we will end up making J-10. Again! Why not bring in J-10 straight then?

 

[Deino]

Dear @Jhon Smith

I do not want to diminish Your enthusiasm, but could You please continue Your "lesson" on aero-engine development in a separate thread ? This is a thread related to the JF-17 ... latest news and so on.

Actually, after all this hassle we will end up making J-10. Again! Why not bring in J-10 straight then?

Ecatly my thoughts. It simply does not make sense - neither economically nor operationally - to "scale-up" the JF-17 into some sort of JF-17PLUS equipped with the WS-10 or a similar engine (AL-31FN) if the J-10 already delivers all that.

IMO the PAF should simply - I know this too is not simple ! - purchase the latest J-10B or C.

Deino

 

[volatile]

Actually, after all this hassle we will end up making J-10. Again! Why not bring in J-10 straight then?

lolz absolutely spot on a lost decade /lost opportunities /lost France

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear @Jhon Smith

I do not want to diminish Your enthusiasm, but could You please continue Your "lesson" on aero-engine development in a separate thread ? This is a thread related to the JF-17 ... latest news and so on.




Ecatly my thoughts. It simply does not make sense - neither economically nor operationally - to "scale-up" the JF-17 into some sort of JF-17PLUS equipped with the WS-10 or a similar engine (AL-31FN) if the J-10 already delivers all that.

IMO the PAF should simply - I know this too is not simple ! - purchase the latest J-10B or C.

Deino

Hi,

That is where the problem lies---. The paf does not want to look bad---it would be like a failure to them to get the J10's---it has become a matter of egos.

The current air chief has created such a major fiasco over this issue that there are things being talked about that should not have been.