JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Umair Nawaz]

Hi,,

Could you please expand on that.

windy had shared that on shaheen exe thread in december 2021.

It turns out a car salesman like u ended up being right over these over confident PAF air marshals

You were right abt J10Cs. Its EO/IO sensors blew PAF away. Unrestricted sensors performed far far better then what PAF could bring in.

Block 3 isnt upto the mark, and that as well as J10C performance in those exe is why PAF brought J10Cs finally!

Turned out Khafee was right atleast abt j10 if not abt f16 block70s or c130J, jh7b etc

Thats why i believe they tested j10s against f16 block52s the day j10s landed in Pak in PAF colors. As they rnt allowed by America to deploy them in shaheen exe to see how that a/c as a whole package performs against the American tech.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

As for the latest ASELSAN EIRS early warning radar, it is based on AESA built with indigenous GaN devices. It has got an official range of 460km+. Thanks to the Qatar AF Rafaels stationed in Turkey, I am pretty sure every signal patterns they would generate is meticulously scrutinized so that the countermeasures are developed. Turkey needs to detect the Greek Rafeals as early as possible....



View attachment 851747

ASELSAN’ın Erken İhbar Radar Sistemi (EİRS) envantere giriyor

Türk Hava Kuvvetlerinin erken ihbar ihtiyacını yurt dışı sistemler yerine yerli olarak karşılayacağımız Erken İhbar Radar Sisteminin (EİRS) ilk teslimatı

www.defenceturk.net

again putting all yr eggs in one basket........The up and coming F4 version of Rafale should be yr concern right now more then f3.

In any threat assessment u always assume the worst case scenario.

 

[Jungibaaz]

JF17 block iii available specs show some additions i.e AESA radar with quoted range of 170 KM and some claim it to be up to 200 KM, PL15 and PL10 additions, may be better EW/Defensive capabilities. But so far capabilities missing are Powerful engine, Mach 2 speed, stealth features and the most visible one is IRST.

The mach 2 thing isn't an engine issue, it's inlet limited to mach 2, current DSI configuration will prevent it and it's a design choice, likely the same is the case with the J-10B/C. We heard some talk about a new DSI style being developed for J-20s to overcome this, but haven't heard anything since. Everything else we can talk about, IRST, rcs reduction methods, etc. They are all a question of cost vs. capability, in the PAF's assessment thus far, AESA was a must no matter the cost and despite the problems with space and cooling that they encountered, the same could not be said for IRST.

I think the real value of IRST/FLIR is just being realised with the modern examples where the IRST, radar, and DAS like systems, where they all work in tandem and are able to cue one another.

One really cool thing I read about the F-35's capabilities wrt to these capabilities: if for example the F-35's AESA is tracking a target, but the aircraft needs to maneuever and the target will disappear past the radar's gimbal limit, the radar will cue other sensors such as the DAS to track the target while the nose of the aircrafts points away, then the DAS re-cues the radar with the latest position of the target for the radar to continue tracking it seemlessly. This is just one such example of the capabilities of an integrated sensor suite. There was another case where DAS, which is looking everywhere at once, tracks targets and cues the radar for extended-range detection. Pilot can point his nose elsewhere and the radar can perform other tasks while the DAS continues tracking peripheral threats. Might be technically possible with the multiple MAW sensors on the JF-17.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

again putting all yr eggs in one basket........The up and coming F4 version of Rafale should be yr concern right now more then f3.

In any threat assessment u always assume the worst case scenario.

EIRS radars are just one leg. Couple it with air-borne HAVA-SOJ EW a/cs, MEHPOD EW pods, indigenous a/c borne AESA radars, land and sea-based EW systems, indigenous seekers for the indigenous BVR/WVR missiles etc. And, all are integrated under SIPER multi-layered (4 to 400km range) AD. And, all are evolving with the threat perceptions, technological development, experience etc. via indigenous means in terms of both men and materials.....

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir do we have any brochures regarding Turkish Pod also having IRST capabilities. Even if it has such capability then range shall also be factor.


JF17 block iii available specs show some additions i.e AESA radar with quoted range of 170 KM and some claim it to be up to 200 KM, PL15 and PL10 additions, may be better EW/Defensive capabilities. But so far capabilities missing are Powerful engine, Mach 2 speed, stealth features and the most visible one is IRST.

Hi,

Flight at Mach2 is an illusion for general purpose fighter aircraft.

Out of the 2 major 5th gen aircraft, one can only fly for 53 second at mach 1.5---after that, its stealth skin starts to deteriorate.

 

[araz]

More than likely our AESA equipped fighters will detect Rafale and be able to engage it at longer distances than a good IRST system is capable of. Also, we can't be sure what that RCS value is refernecing. Nobody actually knows to what extent Rafale's attempts to reduce signature will let it evade detection vs. our radars in combat scenarios.

Also, DAS/EOTS/AESA fusion on aircraft like the F-35 is the future, it's an incredible set of instruments that work in tandem and can cue each other. Eventually we'll need something like that, but I doubt it's a requirement for Rafale. On the subject of the JF-17, I wasn't at all surprised by the lack of it, with the JF-17 you're fighting for power, space and cost vs. capabilities, most likely IRST failed in that assessment.

Regarding RCS, most estimations on RCS fail once you start hanging weapons and tanks on the plane as the RCS increases exponentially. Regarding the JFT, I only heard that there is a demand for IRST from a country. PAF did try it and found out that there were unspecified problems We are looking into it.
A

 

[ghazi52]

.,.,

 

[air marshal]

 

[Mig hunter]

assumption.....

The little the warfare that i understand, U always assume the worst case scenario and work according to that. AESA radars is something u have put all yr eggs in it. NOT A GOOD IDEA!

AESA is in the end of the day just a radar too albeit a better then contemporary. In future even better radars will come like jet, ground, air based Quantum Radars. But RCS will still play its part.

Try to find out why J10C is actually brought........the real reason why.

Hint: December 2020 Shaheen exercises. That was the first time PLAAF had allowed unrestricted performance of J10C in these exercises. These jets almost gave a heart attack to somebody in PAF's high command according to windjammer. And made him rethink abt PAF's decision of not buying them. A decision they finally took in june 2021.

The last paragraph is absolutely right.. All of top guns were in shell shock and furious..

 

[PakFactor]

The last paragraph is absolutely right.. All of top guns were in shell shock and furious..

Question why furious? Meaning surprised but anger due to higher ups not fully vetting the system?

 

[Abid123]

windy had shared that on shaheen exe thread in december 2021.

It turns out a car salesman like u ended up being right over these over confident PAF air marshals

You were right abt J10Cs. Its EO/IO sensors blew PAF away. Unrestricted sensors performed far far better then what PAF could bring in.

Block 3 isnt upto the mark, and that as well as J10C performance in those exe is why PAF brought J10Cs finally!

Turned out Khafee was right atleast abt j10 if not abt f16 block70s or c130J, jh7b etc

Thats why i believe they tested j10s against f16 block52s the day j10s landed in Pak in PAF colors. As they rnt allowed by America to deploy them in shaheen exe to see how that a/c as a whole package performs against the American tech.

We should stop at max 150 JF-17 and build the J-10C fleet upto 100.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

We should stop at max 150 JF-17 and build the J-10C fleet upto 100.

no brah, thats not the point, the point is that they didnt made Block03 on Sohail Aman era's specs. The specs that he freezed back in 2018/17. What they have build is a downgraded version of that aircraft. With only new Radar, EW and weapons package, new multi directional MAWS. There is no new and powerful engine, no new redesigned cockpit with single touch screen display, no voice command controls, no new sensors like inbuilt IRST, EO/IO Optics etc etc. And i think there isnt a new RWR too.

They should have just build Block 3 on Sohail Aman's specs. Had they build it, there was no need for j10 at all.

Thats the point.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Question why furious? Meaning surprised but anger due to higher ups not fully vetting the system?

this was the first time ever PAF came across a true 4.5++ gen fighter without any restrictions. Before this their benchmark was only f16 C Block 52. But now they came to know a fighter which can only be comparable to f16V Block 70.

This is also one of the reasons why there is a sudden re desire to engaging Americans on f16 update and western appeasement like kicking IK out, engaging israelis etc etc.

I cant apologize to @MastanKhan enough, i used to think of him as this grumpy old guy in US who is a car salesman and thinks he knows abt PAF more then PAF's high command itself.

But actually the whole PAF's idea of excellence was centered around block52s which arnt true 4.5 gen fighters. Now however PAF knows. And this is also why i believe Block-3 r taking so long to get inducted. As now probably PAF is revising its specs for Block-3s.

BTW if u dont know, now Block 3 will be inducted next year not this year, thats what i heard however not completely sure.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

@Jammer whats up with these ''haha'' on my posts? if u want to challenge my contention, go ahead quote me and tell me where im wrong.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

But actually the whole PAF's idea of excellence was centered around block52s which arnt true 4.5 gen fighters. Now however PAF knows. And this is also why i believe Block-3 r taking so long to get inducted. As now probably PAF is revising its specs for Block-3s.

BTW if u dont know, now Block 3 will be inducted next year not this year, thats what i heard however not completely sure.

Better late then never......